Marriage cert

[Zoemcdougall]

I would like to get the marriage cert of my great Aunt, I have a few problems I have found the record, I found it ages ago & but my problems are I can't access in my Ancestry account as I haven't got a sub on at the moment, but hoping that will change, Another is I can't put her details, hoping someone will let me send them a PM, with the details,

Thankyou in advance

Zoe

[ElizabethHerts]

Zoe, you don't need Ancestry to order it.

Are you saying you need the reference to order it?
PM me, and I'll look it up for you.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Elizabeth,Yes it is the reference number. will send you a PM thankyou

[ElizabethHerts]

Zoe, I have sent you a pm with the details. I hope this helps you with your research. Let us know!

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou somuch Elizabeth, I am about to order it, I will let you know how it goes, & hopefully it will have the info I am looking for. Then I would like to order the cert of her sisters marriage Dorothy Alice Jones to a Griff Rowlands

[James18]

For future reference, you can use FreeBMD to search for BMD certificate reference numbers, if you want to order from the GRO. As Elizabeth says, you don't need an Ancestry sub.

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou James

[James18]

I just noticed you're from Lincolnshire, too. :)

[Zoemcdougall]

I certainly am, :-)

[Zoemcdougall]

Hi Elizabeth, I received the cert today that I ordered earlier in the week, unfortunately it didn't have the information that I was hoping for, but never mind, I will order the next cert that I am looking to see if that has anything different, just need to look for the reference number. What I did find interesting that it lists four names of the witnesses, all her siblings only had two.

Thankyou for helping me the other day.

Zoe

[ElizabethHerts]

It's a pleasure, Zoe. I hope you find the information you need.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Elizabeth, hopefully one day I will. I have just found other reference number I need to order another siblings marriage cert. to see what info that has on it, then once I have received that, I will order her last 2 siblings marriage certs, then I will have all the certs. I am certainly adding to my collection of certs.

[Merry]

unfortunately it didn't have the information that I was hoping for, but never mind

From your first post I'm guessing you may not want to give details, but what is it you are trying to work out from these various marriage certs? I was just wondering if there is another way to find the info you need.

[Kit]

It's possible she is still alive Merry.

[Merry]

Yes, that's what I thought. I just wondered what info Zoe was trying to discover from the marriage certs (post #10) and whether there was another way to find the same info that perhaps Zoe hadn't considered. Perhaps the 1939 register could help, for instance (It must help someone, after all!).

[Zoemcdougall]

The cert I have just bought was for my Great aunt & yes she still alive, will be 100 in May. I was hoping that on her marriage cert that it would have the Full name of her Father my Elusive Great grandfather, on all the birth certs for her siblings has the father with his first name & surname, but on hers it has a middle name, so I wondered what would be entered on her marriage cert. but it didn't. I know there is probably no use buying the other siblings marriage certs, as it probably will have what the others have, but it one it would be nice to get the collect. as my kids are getting into looking at the family history.

[kiterunner]

Is this about Edward Jones, Zoe? Have you found him on the 1939 Register, and if so, what does it say for his date of birth?

[Merry]

What was his wife's name? Mary? I suppose they would be difficult to find unless Zoe knows their address for that time or or we know his wife's dob.

[Zoemcdougall]

Yes Kate, it is about Edward Jones. I haven't looked on the 1939 Register as I didn't if I needed to have an Ancestry sub, if this isn't the case, how do I go about searching the 1939 register

[kiterunner]

It's on Findmypast and at the moment can only be viewed with credits, but after the 16th Feb it will be included in annual Findmypast subs. If you know the address where Edward would have been in 1939, and names and dates of birth of people (now deceased) who would have been in the same household as him then, we could help you look.

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry, His wife was called Mary Jane Jones, in 1911 -1956 they were living at Abergafren Farm Porthmadog, his wife's DOb I don't have but guessing 1880- 1881 as she was only a few months on the 1881 census.

[JBee]

The 1939 register is on FMP which has a free access this weekend.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thanks Julie,

[kiterunner]

There is a Mary J Jones born 1879 in Portmadoc UD but it says "plus 2 more people who are officially closed". I would have thought they would be in a "RD" (Rural District) instead of a UD (Urban District), but it doesn't come up with Portmadoc RD.

We may end up having to wait till after 16th Feb to try and find them though.

[kiterunner]

The 1939 register is on FMP which has a free access this weekend.

The free access doesn't include the 1939 Register.

[Merry]

Merry, His wife was called Mary Jane Jones, in 1911 -1956 they were living at Abergafren Farm Porthmadog, his wife's DOb I don't have but guessing 1880- 1881 as she was only a few months on the 1881 census.

Hmmm....

Do you think they would have had anyone else living with them? Any adult children for instance.

Is Abergafren Farm the same place as Abergafren, Minffordd mentioned in the 1959 obit?

And back to basics - which county in Wales are we talking about at that time? (as I can't find an of those places with those spellings yet! lol)

[Merry]

Merry, His wife was called Mary Jane Jones, in 1911 -1956 they were living at Abergafren Farm Porthmadog, his wife's DOb I don't have but guessing 1880- 1881 as she was only a few months on the 1881 census.

Now I;m confused, as I thought this thread:

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=14858&highlight=mARY+JANE+JONES+1881

was about the same Mary Jane Jones, but she isn't on the 1881 census according to a post by Elizabethherts (post #8) and post #17 suggests she was born later in the year. Zoe, the following post says you were buying the cert!! I don't know if you ever did, but maybe it was the wrong one?

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry,

Abergafren Farm is minffordd, is next to Porthmadog. county of Gwynedd, all the children they had. had all married by 1939,

One child born 1909 died in 1933 from TB. her husband died 2 weeks after, also from TB leaving one child who was brought by her mum's sister Elizabeth, (Edward & Mary's eldest daughter)

[Merry]

But it would have been Merionethshire in 1939?

Was Mary Jane b at the end of 1881?

[Zoemcdougall]

I did order one cert but I ordered the wrong one. Merry, Elizabeth with what she said, in her post about Mary's year of birth I got confused & guessed her YOB due to not being able to view my tree, so I am truly sorry to confuse you.

[Merry]

There is a Mary J Jones born 1879 in Portmadoc UD but it says "plus 2 more people who are officially closed". I would have thought they would be in a "RD" (Rural District) instead of a UD (Urban District), but it doesn't come up with Portmadoc RD.

We may end up having to wait till after 16th Feb to try and find them though.

I agree.

I looked at the Mary Jones entries b 1881+/-2 in Merionethshire and none of the district names looked like any of the place names we have! There were 67 matches :rolleyes:

[Merry]

I did order one cert but I ordered the wrong one. Merry, Elizabeth with what she said, in her post about Mary's year of birth I got confused & guessed her YOB due to not being able to view my tree, so I am truly sorry to confuse you.

So sorry to hear you had the wrong cert. Was it the one I suggested? (1881 Q4)

Anyway, if you don't have the right cert and you don't have any other way of knowing her dob then we can't find her by that method on the 1939 register, so will have to think of another way! lol

[Zoemcdougall]

the second cert I ordered which was the right one born dec1881 ,died 1947

[Zoemcdougall]

Probably will spell this wrong as my welsh is not as good as used to,be born in LLanwynnog.

[Merry]

The 1939 Register doesn't give place of birth (otherwise it should be easy to find Edward!) only date of birth, address and occupation.

[Merry]

the second cert I ordered which was the right one born dec1881 ,died 1947

I thought you didn't have the birth cert? Or was the second cert you bought the death cert?

[Merry]

This map:

http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/unit/10086358/boundary

suggests Deudraeth RD is really close to covering Portmadoc. Plus the registration sub district Edward and Mary Jane were living in in 1911 was

Sub-registration district: Deudraeth

On the 1939 Register I found this household:

Edward Jones b 1876 (dob transcribed as 01 Jan 1876)
Mary I Jones b 1881 (dob transcribed as 17 Oct 1881)
2 other closed records.

I thought the I as Mary's middle initial could well actually be a J as this is a common mis-transcription.

Obviously they may well not be the right people as the names are so common and I've not been able to find the street address by using the address search.

[kiterunner]

Looks good, Merry! But 1 Jan looks like the sort of birthday someone would choose if they didn't know their actual date of birth. :(
(though of course I realise there are just as many people born on 1 Jan as on any other day of the year.)

[Merry]

As soon as I got a match for Jan I thought "bet he says 1st"!!

Having said that, I have known several people born 1st Jan and the only person I've known who didn't know their dob chose 15th Dec, so anything is possible!

[Merry]

Of course, if it was really his dob then that takes us back to this birth cert which we felt was unlikely to be the right one back in 2012!!

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=183998&postcount=28

I wonder if the other Edward Jones, son of Wm and Mary b Attercliffe, survived until 1939? :rolleyes:

I couldn't remember if anyone had done this before, so I looked for the other people registered on the same page as Edward Jones in 1876 Q1 to see where they said they were born. I have a low success rate, but of the three others I found two said they were b in Attercliffe which again makes it more likely that cert belongs to the son of Wm and Mary.

I tried to work out Mary's maiden surname so that the 1876 cert might be positively excluded without purchasing it, but it was too difficult!

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou once again to everyone trying to help me in my search for Edward Jones. from what family members have said (ie my father & his sister) said their grandfather celebrated his birthday on !st Jan, but as Merry & Kate have said before it might be he didnt know when he was born. I know I should probably give searching but a part of me says don't give up.!

[Merry]

from what family members have said (ie my father & his sister) said their grandfather celebrated his birthday on !st Jan

lol I didn't realise you had that info - would have made my search of the 1939 register instantaneous rather than laborious!!

Does anyone know if Mary Jane had her birthday in October (17th)?

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry,

My father & sister are only guessing at the date of his grandfathers birthday, they don't know for certain that his birthday was on 1st Jan. the only facts that we know to be true are his whereabouts from 1899 to 1957.

[Merry]

It makes sense that the date on the 1939 register is the date you were aware of even if it's not his real dob!

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry are you saying that the 1939 register could possibly have his right dob.

his wife's dob is 17th oct 1881.

[Merry]

So his wife's date is correct.

No, I'm not saying his date is right in 1939 (though obviously he could have been born on that date!), just that he's given the date he always used, so it hasn't helped us at all.

[Zoemcdougall]

I have just had 2 more marriage certs for the Edward's children his 2nd eldest child Elizabeth & his second to last child Dorothy Alice. on the cert of Elizabeth's to a John Robert Jones it has name of her father Edward Jones. But on Dorothy's has a different name down as the Father. Thomas.

The Occupation of the father on all certs are the same.

All the birth certs I have for his children have Edward named as the father with the Added H one cert his youngest child, but can't put up details of her as she's still alive.

[Merry]

But on Dorothy's has a different name down as the Father. Thomas.

Do you know from other details that this is definitely the right cert?

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry,

On the cert it has the right full name of Dorothy Alice Jones & her husband Griffith Jones Rowlands, Her place of residence at the time of Marriage was Abergafran Minffordd Penrhyndeudraeth ( Edward's Farm), this place of residency is also mentioned on Dorothy's youngest sister marriage cert.

Father's occupation Railway ganger also this mentioned on her sibling's marriage certs.

[Merry]

OK, so the name error would appear to be exactly that then!

Imagine if you had purchased this cert first without knowing what the father's name should be - you can see how easy it can be for people to have the wrong tree!

Disappointing that none of these certs have helped you to move forward (backward?!) with your tree.

[Zoemcdougall]

I must admit I was shocked when I saw the name Thomas, rather than Edward! didn't expect that! was hoping it may have had a middle name for her father. ( but got to be an error)

Yes I was pleased in One way that I knew what the name should have been.

She was the only one to get married in a register office, the others either chapel or church.

I am disappointed that it hasn't helped me going forward or backward with my tree.

I would now like to look for the obituaries for Edward & Mary's children, but obviously not for his youngest!

[Merry]

do you have the dates/places of death for them all?

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry,

Here are the names, dates & places

William Jones died 31st March 1957, Minffordd ( a year after his father)
Elizabeth Jones died 10th Jan 1983, Fairbourne
Mary Jane Jones died 19th Dec 1984 Prestatyn
Dorothy Alice died 2 Feb 1933, Minffordd ( 4years after marriage leaving one child, who was brought up with Aunty Elizabeth, as Dorothy's husband died in the same week as Dorothy.

[Merry]

is there any reason any of them would have an obituary in the paper?

[Zoemcdougall]

Merry, I know my grandmother had a death notice in the paper , but as yet can't find it, I don't know about her siblings,

But going back to my research on the marriage certs of Edward's children I have now had the last one, for his eldest child William name of the father is listed as William Jones.

[kiterunner]

Of course, if it was really his dob then that takes us back to this birth cert which we felt was unlikely to be the right one back in 2012!!

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=183998&postcount=28

I wonder if the other Edward Jones, son of Wm and Mary b Attercliffe, survived until 1939? :rolleyes:

I couldn't remember if anyone had done this before, so I looked for the other people registered on the same page as Edward Jones in 1876 Q1 to see where they said they were born. I have a low success rate, but of the three others I found two said they were b in Attercliffe which again makes it more likely that cert belongs to the son of Wm and Mary.

I tried to work out Mary's maiden surname so that the 1876 cert might be positively excluded without purchasing it, but it was too difficult!

Going back to this - as soon as the new GRO online index was launched, I thought of checking this! Edward Jones Jan-Mar 1876 comes up with mother's maiden name Wever, and Enoch Jones born 1873 (as the Edward born Attercliffe has a brother Enock age 8 on the 1881 census) comes up with mother's maiden name Weaver, so we can at last definitely rule that birth registration out!

[Merry]

Oh, well done Kate! I don't suppose you remember who I need to look for from my tree? :o:rolleyes:

[Zoemcdougall]

Thank you Kate,

[kiterunner]

Oh, well done Kate! I don't suppose you remember who I need to look for from my tree? :o:rolleyes:

Sorry, no.

[kiterunner]

I don't want to get too excited in case it is a red herring, but I have found the following on the new GRO online birth index:
Richard Edward Williams, gender male, birth reg Apr-Jun 1874 Sheffield, mother's maiden name Bloor, vol 09C, p468.

Can we find anything to rule him out before Zoe orders the birth certificate? (i.e. can we find a baptism for him, find him on any census, find a marriage or death for him, or even a likely marriage for his parents in Sheffield. I wouldn't want people to go back and read the whole of the original Edward Jones thread!)

[kiterunner]

I didn't manage to find anything to rule him out, anyway. I reckon it is him but you would want to get the birth cert to confirm it.

[Zoemcdougall]

Thankyou Kate, Are you saying this maybe my Great Grandfather?.

[kiterunner]

Well, I think it is likely to be the Edward Jones who is in Northampton on the 1881 census (with parents Henry and Hannah) but we still don't know for sure whether that Edward is your great-grandfather, only that he is our best and only guess!

[Zoemcdougall]

Ok, Thanks Kate, if you were me would you order his birth cert?

[kiterunner]

Definitely. It will be interesting to see what it says for father's name.

[Zoemcdougall]

I will take your advice Kate, and order the cert.

[kiterunner]

Tell us when it arrives!

[Merry]

I've just spent an hour working out what I was probably supposed to have remembered about Zoe's ancestors and now I'm excited too! lol

[kiterunner]

I have the Bloor / Williams / Jones family tree hosted on my ancestry account, so I always have it to hand, Merry!

[Merry]

lol Well of course it didn't occur to me to look on Ancestry, so I just read some of the threads here :o

[Zoemcdougall]

I have ordered the cert, I know I shouldn't get too excited, but can't help it.

[Zoemcdougall]

Birth cert for Richard Edward Williams, born 28th April 1874, Mother Hannah Ann Williams formally Bloor, Father down as Thomas Williams, occupation Shoe Maker I can't work out the name of the street they were living in, looks like 55 Bard Street Sheffield. Doesn't look like Thomas could write, X mark of Thomas Wiliams.

[kiterunner]

Oh, Thomas Williams was the informant?! I wasn't expecting that! I thought Hannah might well say he was the father, but I thought they were separated by then. I was expecting Hannah to be the informant. So, now you know who both his parents were! Result! Well, except I suppose we still don't know for certain that this Edward is your Edward Jones, but he is definitely the one who is in Northampton on the 1881 census and we don't have any other possibles.

There is a Bard Street in Sheffield, very close to the main railway station. I'll see if I can find anything to show how long the Williamses were there but between censuses in those days, there might be nothing. Thomas was living in Stoke on Trent by 1881.

[kiterunner]

Well, ok, we do need to look for Richard Edward Williams or Jones now we have his date of birth to see if we can rule him out as being your Edward Jones.

There is a Richard E Williams born 28 Apr 1874 at Shardlow, Derbyshire, on the 1939 Register, with an Emma Williams (born 1882), but I haven't got a subscription to view the image.

[Zoemcdougall]

Yes Thomas was the informant, 1874 Registration district Sheffield, sub district Sheffield Park

[kiterunner]

I hate to say this, but I think we can rule out Richard Edward Williams born Sheffield / Edward Jones in Northampton in 1881 as your Edward Jones, now, because this is Richard and Emma on the 1911 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_21020_0067_03/5007871?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

The Marsh, Longford, Derbyshire
Richard Williams Head 35 Married Farm Labourer born Yorks Sheffield
Emma Williams Wife 28 Married 1 yr 1 child, 1 living, born Burton Staffs
George Edward Williams Son 7 months born Longford Derbys

George Edward Williams' MMN is Salmons on the GRO online birth index, and Richard E Williams married Emma Salmons in 1910 (from FreeBMD).

So - this means scrap the whole Bloor / Williams family and right back to square one! At least you do know that your Edward is NOT the Northampton one now, though.

[Merry]

That's exactly what I was going to report back with, Kate.

So, what are we left with, if anything?

[kiterunner]

Probably going back to the original Edward Jones thread and picking out what we do know about him (Zoe's Edward) and starting a new thread?

Edit - plus, we have his dob from the 1939 Register but I think he put it down as 1st Jan which could mean "don't know".

[Zoemcdougall]

Ok Thank you Kate, he's definitely not an easy man to find.

[kiterunner]

I am going through your original thread picking out the facts, Zoe. When I have put it together, shall I PM it to you so that you can copy and paste it to start the new thread?

[Zoemcdougall]

Thank you so much Kate,

[Merry]

I am going through your original thread picking out the facts

I'll stop doing that then! :D

[kiterunner]

Oops, sorry Merry.