Keeping it in the family *UPDATED - now with birth certs*

[samesizedfeet]

Okay - here goes. I suspect there may be something slightly dubious about a relationship in a tree I'm doing for a friend. I'm probably missing something fairly obvious so thought I'd throw it all at you guys and see if you can spot what I'm missing....

Henry Titus Higgs and Jane Godden married 29 September 1836

They have three children:
Harriet Ann Higgs born 1838 Hartley Westpall, Hampshire
Ellen Emma Higgs born 1840 Hartley Westpall Hampshire
Titus Higgs born 1843 Heckfield Berkshire

Henry Titus Higgs dies in 1845 and Jane remmaries to Alfred Halford.

They are on 1851 census living in Hartley Westpall with her father
HO107; Piece: 1681; Folio: 361; Page: 16


Ellen Emma appears to marry in 1858 in Colchester, Essex to a John Shaw.

This is backed up by 1861 and 1871 census:
RG9; Piece: 431; Folio: 65; Page: 6
RG10; Piece: 1195; Folio: 83; Page: 17

John works in the Army Hospital Corps


Their children:
Henrietta Rosa Shaw 1861 born Aldershot
John Titus Shaw 1864 (can't read birthplace)
William Henry Shaw 1866 born Barbados
Ann Shaw 1867 born South Wales ???? Dock



Meanwhile - Titus Higgs has disappeared but re-appears in 1881 living in Newark, Notts, also a member of the military.


Titus' family on 1881 are:

Ellen Emma Higgs, wife, born Hartley Westpall, c1841, Dressmaker
WIlliam Henry Higgs, son, c1866, Barbados
Annie Higgs, daur, c1867, Newark Notts
Edwin Charles Higgs, son, c1880, Newark Notts.


In 1891 Titus and Ellen Emma are in Jersey, still down as married and with "son" Edwin Charles although Ellen is now saying she was born in Colchester, Essex.

Then I lose them all again (although still looking for the children at the minute).

Normally I'd just put it down to enumerator error and write it off but it's the new child born 1880 that's got me thinking.

Am I way off the mark?

I doubt I'll ever be able to prove it I'm just intrigued by it all

Z
x

[samesizedfeet]

I'm at football all day Saturday and have a party for 120 kids to help with on Sunday so apologies in advance if I don't get a chance to come back in before Sunday evening

[HarrysMum]

Titus Higgs married Ellen Emma Shaw in 1875.

I don't want to go there........lol

[maggie_4_7]

So it looks like he eventually married his sister!

:eek:

It'd be interesting to see who they both named as father on the cert :)

[HarrysMum]

I'd be buying that cert!!!!!!!!!!!!

[maggie_4_7]

I'd be buying that cert!!!!!!!!!!!!

Me too :)

[HarrysMum]

Zoe.................you can't put up a thread like this then take off for the weekend.........you just cant!!!!

[samesizedfeet]

Is there a cert???? I missed that. Can someone post me the ref and I'll order it today. I'm nit getting it on ancestry but it was playing up for me yesterday

[HarrysMum]

Titus Higgs and Ellen Emma Shaw

Dec 1875 Farnham 2a 194.

[Nell]

Zoe - you'd better come back when you've got the cert and tell us what it says!

[HarrysMum]

Zoe - you'd better come back when you've got the cert and tell us what it says!



Ditto!!

[Merry]

Oh, this is creepy, isn't it? lol

Here's another slightly odd thing:

Ellen Higgs and John Shaw m in 1858 and seem to be together until 1871. However, someone submitting data to Family Search has put this:

Annie HIGGS
Female
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 1868 Newark Mb, Nottingham, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: Titus HIGGS
Mother: Ellen Emma HIGGS


Presumably they got their initial info from the 1881 census, as this would be where the place of birth came from, but I think Annie was registered in Pembroke district in Q1 1868 as per the 1871 census entry which has her b at Pembroke Dock, yet they have managed to work out Ellen's maiden name apparently without acknowledging her first marriage. Odd?

John Titus Shaw 1864 (can't read birthplace)


John Titus Shaw was b in Portsmouth (reg in Portsea)

[Olde Crone]

The certificate isn't going to tell you much though, is it. If they really were brother and sister, then one of them would have to lie about their father.

It would seem a very strange thing to do - they
MUST have known it was illegal and therefore the certificate wasn't worth the paper it was written on. One explanation is some kind of scam to get Army pay allowances for the "wife" and children.

Another explanation is that they are not brother and sister - baptisms?

YET ANOTHER, lol, is that one or other of them is someone else pretending to be them. We had an example of this recently, didn't we, where someone in the army ran off with another woman and she pretended to be the first wife, so that she and her children got army allowances. That doesn't quite work here, but may be something along those lines?

OC

[maggie_4_7]

Yes but the marriage certificate would still be interesting to see what they actually put! Might give a clue to who each of them were or yes they lied, still interesting.

Or as you have surmised perhaps they weren't biological brother and sister to begin with.

[Merry]

The baptisms of the two sisters are on the IGI (extracted). Unfortunately Titus's birthplace isn't on the IGI (Heckfield is/was in Hants, not Berkshire, I believe). It's difficult to imagine they didn't have the same mother, even if they has different fathers (secretly or otherwise) :rolleyes:

[maggie_4_7]

Well I would assume they had the same mother too from the census details in the above post.

[Merry]

I wonder what happened to John Shaw?

[Margaret in Burton]

The certificate isn't going to tell you much though, is it. If they really were brother and sister, then one of them would have to lie about their father.

It would seem a very strange thing to do - they
MUST have known it was illegal and therefore the certificate wasn't worth the paper it was written on. One explanation is some kind of scam to get Army pay allowances for the "wife" and children.

Another explanation is that they are not brother and sister - baptisms?

YET ANOTHER, lol, is that one or other of them is someone else pretending to be them. We had an example of this recently, didn't we, where someone in the army ran off with another woman and she pretended to be the first wife, so that she and her children got army allowances. That doesn't quite work here, but may be something along those lines?

OC

Yes that was me doing my niece's hubby's tree.

[samesizedfeet]

In 1841 the two girls are with their mother (can't find Henry Titus yet, though not looked at length)

Hartley Westpall
HO107; Piece 385; Book: 23; Folio: 7; Page: 8

Jane Higgs 20
Harriott Higgs 2
Ellen Higgs 8 Mo

They're living next door to Jane's father and brother (Richard and Henry Godden). Although Obv there's no relationships so can't draw any conclusions from it.

Titus is born in 1843, Henry Titus dies in 1845

1851 is as above. Living with Richard Godden and Jane's new husband so the relationships given relate to Richard who is head - granddaughter/grandson. I suppose technically from this census Titus could be the child of another of Richard's children if he had another daughter who married a Higgs - which would make Titus and Ellen Emma cousins.

I may order Ellen's first marriage as well to see what she says for father on there.


It's funny as the lady I am doing this for said there's a bit of a family secret that she's been told will probably be uncovered - but I don't think this is it as it's too far back and not her direct line (she's directly related to oldest sister Harriet)

[samesizedfeet]

2 marriage certs ordered

Very tempted to get the births as well but I'll see what the marriages tell me first

[HarrysMum]

I'd be getting both marriage certs for Ellen. Be interesting to see if Ellen Emma Shaw is listed as spinster and gives her father in law's name as her father.

I could understand the scam for pensions, but not the new baby.....that's taking it a bit far....lol

[HarrysMum]

Snap Zoe........wait and see what the marriages say....

*showing signs of being a tight so and so*

[maggie_4_7]

2 marriage certs ordered

Very tempted to get the births as well but I'll see what the marriages tell me first


ooooh let us know what they say too :)

[samesizedfeet]

CERTS HAVE ARRIVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very quick as well, I am mucho impressed with the GRO

CERT 1

9th March 1858
Parish Church of St Botolph Colchester

by Banns

John Shaw - full age - bachelor - private 66th regiment - res: Camp - F: William Shaw, Labourer

Ellen Emma Higgs - minor - spinster - res: Magdalen St - F: Henry Higgs, Glazier

witnesses: George Stockwell, Mary Ann Francis



CERT 2

10th October 1875

United Presbyterian Church, Farnham

by Licence

Titus Higgs - 35 - bachelor - Corporal 15th regiment - res: Aldershot - F: Henry Higgs, Shoemaker

Ellen Emma Shaw - 34 - Widow - res: Aldershot - F: Richard Godden, Painter

Witnesses: George Bowden, Jane Bannister




Richard Godden is their grandfather for anyone that can't remember



So what do we all think?

[Margaret in Burton]

Ooooh 'eck :eek::eek::eek:

[samesizedfeet]

LOL

Is that a nod of agreement?

[maggie_4_7]

errrrrrrrrrrr

So Richard Godden is for all intense and purposes for census sake Titus Higgs and Ellen Emma Shaw nee Higgs' grandfather and now also Ellen Emma's father too!

On one census it names Ellen Emma and Titus as brother and sister so perhaps she was his aunt as well as his half sister. Or am I so totally confused.

ooooooooooooooh but she said her father was Henry Higgs on the first marriage cert :eek:

Oh god!

Are you sure its the same Ellen Emma? I'm clutching at straws to be honest... yes it is the same woman isn't it.

[samesizedfeet]

I think Ellen Emma Shaw is trying to hide the fact her father is the same as her husband's by naming her grandfather instead

[maggie_4_7]

I think Ellen Emma Shaw is trying to hide the fact her father is the same as her husband's by naming her grandfather instead

:eek:

Oh well there you go. By the way did Ellen Emma and Titus have any children? :)

[Margaret in Burton]

LOL

Is that a nod of agreement?

I reckon so

[maggie_4_7]

I think Ellen Emma Shaw is trying to hide the fact her father is the same as her husband's by naming her grandfather instead

Sorry I've just gone back over the other thread you posted and realised Ellen and Titus did have a child Edwin Charles Higgs, son, c1880, Newark Notts.

I am a bit confused.

Edited to change child's name.

[samesizedfeet]

Err, yes :eek:

She had some from her first marriage but I'm pretty sure that there was one born a while after 1st husband died

[maggie_4_7]

Are you going to tell your friend what the evidence suggests?

I suppose the next step would be to order Edwin's birth certificate.

I think I've caught up your friend is descended from Ellen's older sister Harriet.

[samesizedfeet]

I just realised I added this to teh wrong thread so I'm going to attempt to move everything over to the right one

Sorry - was a bit excited

[maggie_4_7]

Err, yes :eek:

She had some from her first marriage but I'm pretty sure that there was one born a while after 1st husband died

I expect this is Edwin's Birth Reg

Births Sep 1879 (>99%)
HIGGS Edwin Charles Newark 7b 372

That was 4 years after the marriage.

[samesizedfeet]

okay - replies now attached to the right thread. Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much

Z
x

[maggie_4_7]

okay - replies now attached to the right thread. Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much

Z
x

Not anymore than I am already :d

[Olde Crone]

Well, you confused me, cos I was just reading it all when you switched threads - thought I'd gone mad.

Um, there IS a birth registered for an Ellen Godden in 1842 - is it possible she was a cuckoo in the nest?

I have a 2 z GGF who appears as son and his birth cert "confirms" this. his baptism is a different thing altogether though...he is the illegitimate child of his "father's" sister, so has in fact been unofficially adopted by his blood uncle and wife, and those two have lied to the Registrar.

I'm straw clutching of course with the above...but what earthly purpose would this marriage ceremony serve, other than to get a marriage allowance from the Army? If this incest was discovered, both would have gone to prison for a LONG time - for the incest AND for the fraudulent marriage.

Also, can't remember if this was mentioned before - glazier to shoemaker is a great big jump in occupations.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

OC

That's what I thought but it'd still make Ellen Titus' aunt and half sister too if you go on that sort of logic.

:)

[samesizedfeet]

Okay - so I probably need to be ordering birth certificates for Ellen Emma and Titus.

My curiosity is an expensive indulgence :)

[maggie_4_7]

Okay - so I probably need to be ordering birth certificates for Ellen Emma and Titus.

My curiosity is an expensive indulgence :)

Yes and then Edwin's birth cert too if you find that Ellen and Titus' has the same father's name I suppose we'd all like to see who Edwin's mother and especially his father is too.

:)

Yes it can be quite expensive being very nosey like :p

If you want some money I'll happly contribute because I'm as curious as you, I'll send you £20 for the Higgs fund I really will.


Edit to say: you couldn't make it up if you tried, its not a big deal but its interesting, it is bluddy interesting, you wonder how these people survived and why.

[HarrysMum]

Throws a fiver at Zoe........................c'mon you can't stop now, girl....

[Nell]

That's what I love about genealogy, you get the cert to explain things and it just throws up more questions!

[Joan of Archives]

Aren't the two Henry Higgs' ocupations very different though & Higgs is a common name. Could there have been two Emmas with Henry as their father?

[Merry]

Aren't the two Henry Higgs' ocupations very different though & Higgs is a common name. Could there have been two Emmas with Henry as their father?

But the 'two' Emmas had the same children with 'them' on succssive censuses, didn't they?

[Olde Crone]

Merry

I will say two words to you - parallel families, lol!

I still cannot fathom what would possess a brother and sister to marry. They must have known it was illegal and punishable by imprisonment.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Well I know my 3 x great granddad married his niece so anything is possible lol!!

I do wonder if they would have got away with it though! :d

[HarrysMum]

But were Titus and Ellen Emma actually siblings???

They are called that on their childhood census, but how many errors/lies have others found???

Maybe they weren't related.

Ellen may have found she was her "grandfather's" child....she may not have been grandmother's child.

Does that make sense??
I don't think it's parallel families because of Ellen's children.

[Olde Crone]

Libby

No, I don't really think it is parallel families either, but I do think that either Ellen or Titus are not who they seem and they are not brother and sister.

I have one birth cert in my possession where my dim relative is completely overcome with stupidity in the Registrar's presence and gives the name of her own father as the father of her child. Fortunately, he had been dead a good while, so I was able to figure out what had happened.

I also agree - census information cannot be considered gospel truth

Some certs called for, I think!

OC

[samesizedfeet]

I could perhaps go with the parallel families thing if it wasn't for this child:

1871:
William Henry Shaw c1866 born Barbados

1881:
William Henry Higgs, son, c1866, Barbados

[Olde Crone]

Well then I suppose that the reason for entering into an incestuous "marriage" was so that she could go with him as "wife" in his army travels and get an army allowance for the children (that early???).

If so, well......eeeuuuuwww!!!

Presumably any relative who knew them to be brother and sister was dead?

I'd still have to get both birth certs though, especially as this is someone else's family and you need to be 100% sure before you drop this bombshell!

OC

[samesizedfeet]

bombshell has already been dropped and they're very laidback about it.

Certs will be ordered.

I've been trying to find any of the children in later census to see what surname they're using and I'm having zero luck.

Their father Henry died in 1845, mother Jane in 1861 I think.
Sister Harriett was still alive when they married but died in 1883. She has lots of children who you would think knew who their aunt and uncle were but as they both appear to have moved away from home whilst Harriet's family stayed in the same area it's hard to tell.
There are some half siblings and a stepfather (died sometime between 1881 and 1891 census) as well. Just tracing the halves forward now to see if that gives me anything.

[Joan of Archives]

Could one of them have been "taken in" as a child & brought up together in the same family? You need both their birth certs to prove they were blood siblings really I suppose.

I know mine were really Uncle & niece because I have him living with a brother in 1851 who was definitely a brother of her father, & both the men's marriage certs show the same unusual father's name albeit their occupations were slightly different they are both occupations that ran in the family. One of their daughters was disabled too, which could be down to the close genetics. It could be that one of them was taken in & brought up by the other's parents though, I shall never know.

It makes my 4 x great grandma also my 4 x great aunt or something as well though lol!

[Uncle John]

Is adoption (formal or informal) a possibility? Or has a definite birth been found for all of the dramatis personae?

[samesizedfeet]

ALrighty then........

Birth certificates have just plopped onto the door mat and here are the results:

Ellen Emma Higgs
26 Sep 1840 parish of Hartley Wespall
F = Henry Higgs, Glazier and painter
M = Jane Higgs formerly Godden
informant = mother

Titus Higgs
13 May 1843, Heckfield
F = Henry Titus Higgs, Painter and Glazier
M = Jane Higgs formerly Godden
informant = father

and for completeness their sister (who is the person I'm meant to be following!!)
Harriott Ann Higgs
24 Aug 1838 Stratfield ?????
F = Henry Higgs, Glazier and Painter
M = Jane Higgs formerly Jane Godden
informant - Joseph Spence surgeon in attendance



Can I be certain yet???

[Merry]

Well, I would be!

Obviously we dont know what circumstances surrounded the conception of the child brought up as theirs, nor if the 'marriage' was only a finincial scam. Have you got that boy's birth cert? (too lazy to read back!!)

[samesizedfeet]

and once again I'm off to the football - have to go get ready now. I'll look forward to all your thoughts when I return this evening LOL

[Merry]

Have read back and now you need to see what Edwin's birth cert says!!

[samesizedfeet]

*has severe doubts over long term survival of piggy bank*

[maggie_4_7]

Well, I would be!

Obviously we dont know what circumstances surrounded the conception of the child brought up as theirs, nor if the 'marriage' was only a finincial scam. Have you got that boy's birth cert? (too lazy to read back!!)

Well legally they were brother and sister but as Merry says you don't what their actual relationship was. They could have done it for all sorts of reasons. But yes piggy bank is going to have a big dent in it because you need Edwin's birth cert!!!!

[Olde Crone]

Oooh dear, not looking good, is it?

*Sprinkles disinfectant liberally over thread*.

There are some more obscure possibilities, e.g. that one of the people in this story is using a false identity/knows their father is not the one on their birth cert, etc, but I really don't know how you would prove any of that over what is looking very like deliberate incest.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

I know this sounds daft & no doubt it's been asked somewhere but have you ever actually found Ellen Emma & Titus on a census living together as brother & sister?

I think I need to write all this down to work it out lol!

I am still not convinced that my great great grandfather is also my great great Uncle & that his mother in law is also my great great grandmother :rolleyes: Although the father's name was pretty unusual & they came from a small village in Sussex, I still think that somewhere someone fibbed on the marriage cert :o

I also have a similar occurrence with another branch of my tree, where a member on here has my 3 x great grandfather's name as the father of her relative on his marriage cert yet we believe they were in fact brothers & he used my relative's name on the cert as "father" in the loosest sense of the word, ie someone who was possibly next of kin rather than biological parent!
:d

[Merry]

Joanie, on the 1851 census they are both with their maternal grandfather, Richard Godden. *sprays further disinfectant*

[Merry]

Oooh, I have to go out in a min, but what's this?

1911:
Edwin Charles Higgs 31
Charles Harmston 64
Ellen Emma Harmston 70 Hants
Ellen Clark 55
Joseph Shaw 16

in Newark District where Edwin married in Q3 1911.

Can someone check the full details (*looks at Marg :)*)

[Uncle John]

Stratfield ????? is presumably Stratfield Turgis, which forms a triangle with the other 2 birthplaces.

[Uncle John]

Please miss, can someone please explain where the name Harmston comes into the story.

[Margaret in Burton]

Oooh, I have to go out in a min, but what's this?

1911:
Edwin Charles Higgs 31
Charles Harmston 64
Ellen Emma Harmston 70 Hants
Ellen Clark 55
Joseph Shaw 16

in Newark District where Edwin married in Q3 1911.

Can someone check the full details (*looks at Marg :)*)

OK give me a minute, just been to dads.

[Margaret in Burton]

Please miss, can someone please explain where the name Harmston comes into the story.

Me too.

Here we go:


The census is signed my Ellen Emma and they were living at 80 Beacon Hill, Newark.

Charles Harmston is from Coddington, Notts
Ellen Emma Harmston is from Hartley Wespool, Hampshire ???
Edwin Charles Hicks is from Newark, Notts
Joseph Shaw is from Newark
Ellen Clark is from Doncaster, Yorkshire

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/1911forZoe.jpg

[Georgette]

Here are the marriage details :

June Q 1897

Ellen Emma Higgs Newark 7b 841
Charles Harmston Newark 7b 841

[Margaret in Burton]

Zoe

If you want that full 1911 image just pm me your email

[Uncle John]

OK then. So when did Titus Higgs die, to make the 1897 marriage possible? This is all getting a bit indigestible, like the little bits of string that Henry King swallowed, and we all know what happend to him!

[Margaret in Burton]

OK then. So when did Titus Higgs die, to make the 1897 marriage possible? This is all getting a bit indigestible, like the little bits of string that Henry King swallowed, and we all know what happend to him!

1879 according to Ancestry.

Is this the right one?

Sept qtr 1879 aged 50
2c 87
Hartley Wintney, Hampshire

Don't think that's the right one is it?

[Merry]

That's not him, as I remember seeing an older Titus on some of the censues still living near his birthplace. *checks under the patio for the right Titus* Maybe he died in the Channel Islands? *gets out crystal ball*

[Merry]

I presume Ellen would have used the same father's name on her third marriage cert as she didn on her second, as I don't suppose she rushed to tell Charles Harmston about her previous relationship! *flexes Zoe's cheque book again*

[Olde Crone]

Straw clutching here, but do we ever have John Shaw and Titus Higgs alive at the same time?

I'm wondering if John Shaw got into some kind of trouble and re invented himself as Titus (who had conveniently died). The marriage in 1875 between Ellen Shaw and "Titus Higgs" may have been something to do with the military, again.

I do think you need to get that MC to see who they say are their fathers.

OC

[samesizedfeet]

*returns*

*looks flustered*

*backs out of thread again*


Give me five to digest it all. I think I need to either update post 1 with all the information we have or add a new post so I can see it all in one place.


Immediate question - how did Ellen Emma "Shaw" explain to her latest hubbie that her youngest child Edwin had the Higgs surname and her older ones were Shaws??


*reaches for damp flannel*

[maggie_4_7]

errrr don't know perhaps she never said what their names actually were, perhaps she didn't know herself *coughs*.

Good idea.

Put it all on one post :)

[Merry]

She says she is widow Ellen Higgs who was married to a Titus Higgs and before that she was married to John Shaw. She chucks out the marriage certs (because of the problem of different fathers) and, depending on what she tells him her maiden name was, she says the husband of the same surname was her cousin. But I doubt she had to bother saying half of this as men don't ask!

[Olde Crone]

Erm, so whose son is Joseph Shaw aged 16, grandson in 1911 then?

Ellen Emma has an assured and educated handwriting for one with such a, um, murky past, lol!

OC

[Merry]

Wondering if this is him?

Name: Joseph Cyril Shaw
Year of Registration: 1894
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Newark
County: Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 433

He's on the 1901 as Joseph Cyril Shard and living with his grandparents who are called Pask........so......if I could get a connection with FreeBMD I might be able to find a Pask Shaw (or even a Pask Higgs!) marriage!!

[Merry]

Annie Pask married William Henry Shaw in 1894 Q3 Newark 7b 659. WHS would be the one b 1866 in Barbados.

[Olde Crone]

Ha!

Annie Pask
to
William Henry SHAW
Sep 1894 Newark 7b 659.

checked against Higgs - no result.

OC

[Olde Crone]

Oooh, you don't think that Edwin born 1880 is the son of Henrietta Rosa born 1861? A grandchild being concealed as a child?

If he is, then that clears the way for a census mistranscription, Titus and Ellen being brother and sister but the enumerator automatically putting Head and wife. I do have one instance of that in my tree.

OC

[samesizedfeet]

Titus and Ellen being brother and sister but the enumerator automatically putting Head and wife. I do have one instance of that in my tree.

OC

and their marriage in 1875 being to cover up the enumerators future mistake????

Been collating all the info so prepare for a very long next post - will try and use bold etc to make it more readable

[samesizedfeet]

1836 - marriage Henry Titus Higgs to Jane Godden

1838 birth Harriot Ann Higgs , Hartley Wespall (to Henry and Jane)

1840 birth Ellen Emma Higgs (to Henry and Jane)

1841 census
Jane Higgs 20
Harriott Higgs 2
Ellen Higgs 8 Mo
all born in county

1843 birth Titus Higgs (to Henry and Jane)

1845 death Henry Titus Higgs

1851 census
HO107; Piece: 1681; Folio: 361; Page: 16
Richard Godden 61 Head Cordwainer
Alfred Hulford 24 son in law
Jane Hulford 35 daughter b Hartley Wespall
Harriet Higgs 12 granddaughter b Hartley Wespall
Ellen Higgs 10 granddaughter b Hartley Wespall
Titus Higgs 8 grandson b Heckfield
Ann Hulford 1 granddaughter b Hartley Wespall

1858 marriage
John Shaw - full age - bachelor - private 66th regiment - res: Camp - F: William Shaw, Labourer
Ellen Emma Higgs - minor - spinster - res: Magdalen St - F: Henry Higgs, Glazier

1861 census
Aldershot Camp
John Shaw Head 29 Private Army Hosp Corps b Reading Berkshire
Ellen Shaw Wife 20 b Basingstoke Hampshire
Rosetta Shaw Daughter 5 mos b Aldershot Hampshire

1871 census
South SToneham Hampshire
John Shaw head 37 Private A H Corps b Reading berkshire
Ellen Emma Shaw wife 29 b Hartley Wespall
Henrietta Rosa Shaw daughter 10 b Aldershot Hants
John Tilus Shaw son 6 b Portsmouth Hants
William Henry Shaw son 4 b Barbados West Indies
Ann Shaw daughter 3 b South Wales Pembroke Dock

1875 marriage
Titus Higgs - 35 - bachelor - Corporal 15th regiment - res: Aldershot - F: Henry Higgs, Shoemaker
Ellen Emma Shaw - 34 - Widow - res: Aldershot - F: Richard Godden, Painter

1879 - birth Edwin Charles Higgs (need to order birth certificate)


1881 census
Newark Notts
Titus Higgs head 40 Permanent Staff of Militia Sergeant in Army B Heckfield
Ellen Emma Higgs Wife 39 Dressmaker b Hartley Hants
William Henry Higgs son 14 b Barbados West Indies
Annie Higgs daughter 13 b newark Notts
Edwin Charles Higgs son 1 b Newark Notts

1891 census
"Arsenal", St Mary Jersey
Titus Higgs Head 50 Soldier b Heckfield Hants
Ellen Emma Higgs Wife 49 Dressmaker b Colchester, Essex
Edwin Charles Higgs Son 11 b Newark Notts


1897 marriage Charles Harmston to Ellen Emma "Higgs", Newark Notts

1901 census
Charles Harmston 58 born Coddington, Nottinghamshire
Ellen E Harmston wife 58 born Hartley, Hampshire
Herbert Harmston son 16 born Newark, Nottinghamshire
Thomas Harmston son 13 born Newark, Nottinghamshire

1911 census
Newark, Notts
Charles Harmston Head 64 Portland Cement Baker(?)
Ellen Emma Harmston wife 70 b Hartley Wespall Hants
Edwin Charles Higgs son 31 general Labourer b Newark Notts
Joseph Shaw grandson 16 Glue Works b Newark Notts

** married years. Charles has 1 which is crossed out, Ellen has 17.**

[Joan of Archives]

That's what I was wondering OC. I know for sure that one of my branches has a "son" on the census that was in fact their grandson, the illegitimate son of their daughter he was born in the workhouse.

[Merry]

It was 17 years since Charles Harmston lost his first wife, so I wonder if that's when he and Ellen got together so that's what they remembered, rather than their marriage date?

[Merry]

Oooh, you don't think that Edwin born 1880 is the son of Henrietta Rosa born 1861? A grandchild being concealed as a child?

If he is, then that clears the way for a census mistranscription, Titus and Ellen being brother and sister but the enumerator automatically putting Head and wife. I do have one instance of that in my tree.

OC

Good idea about Edwin, but what about the marriage cert?

[samesizedfeet]

I can't find any of our participants in the 1901 census yet.

If they were my family at this point I'd really be hating them whilst secretly loving them for being so intriguing

[Joan of Archives]

1858 marriage
John Shaw - full age - bachelor - private 66th regiment - res: Camp - F: William Shaw, Labourer
Ellen Emma Higgs - minor - spinster - res: Magdalen St - F: Henry Higgs, Glazier

1861 census
Aldershot Camp
John Shaw Head 29 Private Army Hosp Corps b Reading Berkshire
Ellen Shaw Wife 20 b Basingstoke Hampshire
Rosetta Shaw Daughter 5 mos b Aldershot Hampshire

I feel very suspicious of this, Shaw is a very common surname so are Ellen Emma as first names :rolleyes:

Also why is Ellen Shaw's pob on 1861 Basingstoke? That's not the same as Ellen Emma Higg's birthplace is it? :confused:

[Olde Crone]

Oh yes, damn, forgot about the 1875 marriage!

Where's Titus in 61 and 71 then?

OC

[Georgette]

Here's Ellen in 1901 in Newark

Class:RG13/ Piece:3197/ Folio:146/ Page:57.

http://search.ancestry.ca/iexec/?htx=view&r=5543&dbid=7814&iid=NTTRG13_3194_3197-1087&fn=Ellen+E&ln=Harmston&st=d&ssrc=&pid=18836226

Charles Harmston 58 born Coddington, Nottinghamshire
Ellen E Harmston wife 58 born Hartley, Hampshire
Herbert Harmston son 16 born Newark, Nottinghamshire
Thomas Harmston son 13 born Newark, Nottinghamshire

[Merry]

1858 marriage
John Shaw - full age - bachelor - private 66th regiment - res: Camp - F: William Shaw, Labourer
Ellen Emma Higgs - minor - spinster - res: Magdalen St - F: Henry Higgs, Glazier

1861 census
Aldershot Camp
John Shaw Head 29 Private Army Hosp Corps b Reading Berkshire
Ellen Shaw Wife 20 b Basingstoke Hampshire
Rosetta Shaw Daughter 5 mos b Aldershot Hampshire

I feel very suspicious of this, Shaw is a very common surname so are Ellen Emma as first names :rolleyes:

Also why is Ellen Shaw's pob on 1861 Basingstoke? That's not the same as Ellen Emma Higg's birthplace is it? :confused:

Basingstoke is about five miles from Ellen's birthplace and the nearest big place, so reasonable I would have thought.

[Joan of Archives]

1861 census
Aldershot Camp
John Shaw Head 29 Private Army Hosp Corps b Reading Berkshire
Ellen Shaw Wife 20 b Basingstoke Hampshire
Rosetta Shaw Daughter 5 mos b Aldershot Hampshire

1871 census
South SToneham Hampshire
John Shaw head 37 Private A H Corps b Reading berkshire
Ellen Emma Shaw wife 29 b Hartley Wespall
Henrietta Rosa Shaw daughter 10 b Aldershot Hants
John Tilus Shaw son 6 b Portsmouth Hants
William Henry Shaw son 4 b Barbados West Indies
Ann Shaw daughter 3 b South Wales Pembroke Doc

OK so John Shaw's age is very different here! Are we sure they are one & the same ?

Also where is the child Rosetta Shaw? Have you found her death anywhere??

[Margaret in Burton]

Is this them in 1901?

RG13; Piece: 3197; Folio: 146; Page: 57

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=NTTRG13_3194_3197-1087&fn=Charles&ln=Harmston&st=r&ssrc=&pid=18836225

[Joan of Archives]

Basingstoke is about five miles from Ellen's birthplace and the nearest big place, so reasonable I would have thought.


Not with the surname Shaw I wouldn't have said Merry :rolleyes:

[Merry]

Where's Titus in 61 and 71 then?

OC

Abroad in the army?

[Margaret in Burton]

Georgette beat me to it :d:d

[Olde Crone]

Rosetta = Henrietta Rosa I think.

OC

[Joan of Archives]

Abroad in the army?



*Edit* It says he was 3 on the 1851 census but just noticed his birth registered 1843 lol!

[samesizedfeet]

Titus was born on 13th May and census was taken 7th April so he'd have only been a 5 or so weeks off his 18th birthday in 1861

[samesizedfeet]

*Edit* It says he was 3 on the 1851 census but just noticed his birth registered 1843 lol!

That may be because I cheated and copied ancestry's transcription for ages. Let me check the original


EDIT TO SAY: There's a big line through it but looks like it is 8 as the bottom of it loops properly

[samesizedfeet]

I'm actually quite surprised by how uncommon Shaw is turning out to be.

In 1861 census there are only 19 John and Ellen Shaw pairings and in 1871 there are 32.
John Shaws from Berkshire are very few too - although I still can't pinpoint him in 1851

[Joan of Archives]

Have we got a date for John Shaw's death anywhere?

[Merry]

I'm actually quite surprised by how uncommon Shaw is turning out to be.

In 1861 census there are only 19 John and Ellen Shaw pairings and in 1871 there are 32.
John Shaws from Berkshire are very few too - although I still can't pinpoint him in 1851

I can't find him either, but I think these are his parents:

HO107; Piece: 1692; Folio: 647; Page: 34

I think in 1841 he and his sister have had their ages rounded.

[Merry]

Have we got a date for John Shaw's death anywhere?

Have you seen how many John Shaws die?!!! lol

[samesizedfeet]

Durrr - I forgot I had his father's name from the marriage certificate

There's a baptism on IGI 29 FEB 1832 Saint Giles, Reading, Berkshire, England

to William and Sarah Shaw

[Merry]

*puts money on that one*

[samesizedfeet]

LOL

Looking for John's born Reading in 1851 who aren't with their parents and have the following as "relationship to head"

Above Branches Round The Tabb

[Joan of Archives]

Have you seen how many John Shaws die?!!! lol

Not that many John Shaws in Hampshire though lol!

[Merry]

LOL

Looking for John's born Reading in 1851 who aren't with their parents and have the following as "relationship to head"

Above Branches Round The Tabb

and what does it actually say??? :eek::d

[Merry]

Hmmm....'Olive branches around the table' for relationship to head and something about 'daughters being girl specimens and sons boys'? Love the occs! Two eldest girls 'parents housemaids', one of the kids 'goes to school whistling as he goes'! etc etc Also Ann Ellis, fruitful wife!!

HO107; Piece: 1692; Folio: 219; Page: 19

Sorry I digressed - *checks tree for people called Ellis*

I just found a transcript of the whole family (still digressing!)

HO107/1692. FOLIO 219 Page 19
Parish: Reading St.Mary, Place: Borough of Reading, 69:Oxford Road
Ellis, Henry F. Head, 38 Plebeian gardener and Chartist. Born: City of Chimney Pots
Ellis, Ann. Wife, 39 Fruitful wife. Household and maternal cares. Ufton : BRK
Ellis, Mary. Dau, 15 Parents housemaid. Reading : BRK
Ellis, Ann. Dau, 13 Parents housemaid. Reading : BRK
Ellis, Henry. Son, 11 Much work and little pay. Reading : BRK
Ellis, John. Son, 9 Helps brother and plays with the others :Reading : BRK
Ellis, Charles. Son, 7. Goes to school whistling as he goes :Reading : BRK
Ellis, Thomas. Son, 3. Stops at home and plays with baby. Reading :BRK
Ellis, Edwin. Son, 4m. Nursed tenderly. Reading : BRK
In deaf and dumb column: Can hear the Church bells. Talks to her baby and wears specs when daylight grows dim.


lol

[Olde Crone]

Oh gosh, why does that make me want to cry?!

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Blimey the things you come across in this hobby

[ElizabethHerts]

This thread gets better and better!

I just love that entry - will print it out and keep it.:) In particular I shall show it to my future son-in-law as the wife was born in Ufton and he lived there as a child and his parents are still there!

I had to go back to the beginning and read it all again as I was getting rather lost! :d

[Margaret in Burton]

This thread gets better and better!

I just love that entry - will print it out and keep it.:) In particular I shall show it to my future son-in-law as the wife was born in Ufton and he lived there as a child and his parents are still there!

I had to go back to the beginning and read it all again as I was getting rather lost! :d

Yes, I think I'm going to do the same.

[samesizedfeet]

I've been distracted booking a train to Wrexham - it's £20 cheaper to travel first class to Wrexham than go as a normal person!!!

Anyway - where were we. I'm fairly confused at this point

[Margaret in Burton]

Rosetta = Henrietta Rosa I think.

OC

BUT

Rosetta is aged 5 in 1861 and Henrietta Rosa is 10 in 1871.

I don't think that can be the same child.

[samesizedfeet]

Rosetta is 5 months in 1861 making her perfect to be 10 in 1871

[Margaret in Burton]

Rosetta is 5 months in 1861 making her perfect to be 10 in 1871

Ah, didn't notice that.

Have found her marriage

Henrietta Rosa Shaw married either David McKenzie Russell or Arthur Toplis

Newark, Mar qtr 1881
7b 488

[Merry]

Arthur TOPLIS Head M 20 Chemists Porter b Newark, Nottingham, England
Henrietta TOPLIS Wife M 20 Chemists Porter Wife b Aldershot, Hampshire, England

King St Newark

[Margaret in Burton]

We still have to find Titus Higgs death don't we?

[Merry]

He may have died in the Channel Islands. That's difficult isn't it?

[Margaret in Burton]

I don't know, never done Channel Islands research.

Someone has a tree on Ancestry with them on, this may have already been mentioned, but they don't seem to have noticed this "problem"

They don't have them after 1891.

[Margaret in Burton]

Gawd, we'll be having nightmares about this. More certs needed. LOL :d:d

I'm off to bed now.

*mustn't dream about bl**dy Titus*

[samesizedfeet]

I'm going to invest in Edwin's birth and Ellen's 3rd (as far as we know!!) marriage

[Olde Crone]

Toplis seems a familiar name........

Has anyone looked for Army records for Titus and/or John Shaw? (I haven't got an Ancestry sub at the mo, so I can't)

I'm still worried because we have never seen both these men alive at the same time.

OC

[Nell]

I loved the Ellis family - the person who filled that in clearly had a lot of love and a sense of humour.

but as for the Titus Ellen stuff I think the more you lot find out the more mysterious it gets.

[Merry]

I'm wondering Nell, if Mrs Ellis found her husband so amusing as he seems to have vanished by 1861 and she says married for her status. He seems to be untracable!!

[Merry]

Has anyone looked for Army records for Titus and/or John Shaw? (I haven't got an Ancestry sub at the mo, so I can't)



I think they both fall into the black hole of before the Ancestry army records and after the ones that can be picked up through the TNA Catalogue. I should think actually finding Titus' record would be possible (if it still exists), but imagine finding the right John Shaw! (unless they were the same person and they got found out. )

When Zoe wins the lottery, or her friend does, I think it would be very interesting to get the marriage certs of as many of Ellen's children as possible to see what they each had to say about their father.

[maggie_4_7]

I had to go back to the beginning and read it all again as I was getting rather lost! :d

I have done that twice in the last half hour - think I've got it now :)

Its getting very interesting.

[ElizabethHerts]

I have done that twice in the last half hour - think I've got it now :)

Its getting very interesting.

LOL, Maggie!

I have just drawn a family tree so that I have it all in front of me! I had to start at the beginning and trawl through again.:)

[Olde Crone]

See Merry's post 121......

The witness at the Topliss marriage is one Titus Higgs!

Put "Titus Higgs" into google and look at what comes up.

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

See Merry's post 121......

The witness at the Topliss marriage is one Titus Higgs!

Put "Titus Higgs" into google and look at what comes up.

OC

I tried that last night but didn't spot this one:

http://www.myheritage.com/genealogy-center?utm_source=GEN&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=GEN3

Is that the one you mean OC? I can't get any further to view it though.

[Merry]

See Merry's post 121......

The witness at the Topliss marriage is one Titus Higgs!

OC

How do we know that? :confused::confused:

Put "Titus Higgs" into google and look at what comes up.


Oh, is it this you mean:

Arthur Topliss
1881 Census Address King Street, Newark 1901 Census Address 7Paceys Ct, New St, Newark
Marriage: Witnesses Titus Higgs & Marther Else. Vicar Marshall Wild ...
www.gencircles.com/users/alansfamily/1/data/2643


I can't open it. :(

[Merry]

But that marriage was around 1880 wasn't it? So Titus Higgs was married to his 'sister' at that date.

[ElizabethHerts]

:dI see that the owner of this tree held back from giving the parents of Henrietta Rosa Shaw! Do you think they were getting confused?

[Margaret in Burton]

but that marriage was around 1880 wasn't it? So titus higgs was married to his 'sister' at that date.

1881

[ElizabethHerts]

I've been googling "Richard Godden" and found his marriage.

Barton, lie. (??)
Richard Godden, of Hartley Westpail, & Ann
1812 Newnham

http://www.archive.org/stream/hampshireparish00oglagoog/hampshireparish00oglagoog_djvu.txt

[Olde Crone]

I just meant that if Titus Higgs was a witness at his daughter's marriage in 1881, then he was still alive at that date, lol.

I still cannot get my head round why they would marry if they were brother and sister. Incest is one thing (!), getting married is quite another thing...did they think that Holy Matrimony would validate their behaviour? It can only have been finance which motivated the marriage.

OC

[maggie_4_7]

But Titus wasn't Henrietta Rosa's father the elusive John Shaw was.

[Olde Crone]

No, sorry, his stepdaughter!!! Whatever - he was still alive in 1881, which was never in question of course, it is where he was before that.....

I'm going for a very long lie down now.....

OC

[maggie_4_7]

No, sorry, his stepdaughter!!! Whatever - he was still alive in 1881, which was never in question of course, it is where he was before that.....

I'm going for a very long lie down now.....

OC

...and niece :)

...and 'we' lose sight of Titus between the 1851 census when he is 8 until the 1881 census when he is living with Ellen and also a witness at Henrietta's marriage.

That seems clear.

[ElizabethHerts]

I hope I'm not repeating anything here!!

LOOK!
1871 Census
Address: Hound Green, Mattingley

HIGGS, Titus Head M 42 1829 Hampshire Painter and Glazier Born Heckfield
HIGGS, Frances Wife F 42 1829 Shropshire
HIGGS, William H Son M 17 1854 Hampshire
HIGGS, Caroline E Daughter F 15 1856 Hampshire
HIGGS, Henry P Son M 10 1861 Hampshire
HIGGS, George Son M 6 1865 Hampshire
HIGGS, Rose Daughter F 5 1866 Hampshire

RG10 Piece:1233 Folio:129 Page 9

DOB slightly out but what do you think???

[ElizabethHerts]

Titus Higgs married Frances Pardoe Sep qr 1852 Marylebone!

[Margaret in Burton]

Titus is still alive in 1891 isn't he? In Jersey.

[ElizabethHerts]

Of course, Titus was in the army, wasn't he! AAHHHHHHHHH!:o

I think I should go and do the ironing - but who is this Titus??

[maggie_4_7]

Titus is still alive in 1891 isn't he? In Jersey.

Yes.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&=%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c %2c1%2c+%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c%2c1%2c+%2c%2c&gsfn=titus&gsln=higgs&gsby=1843&gsb2co=3251%2cEngland&gsb2pl=5266%2cHampshire&gsdy=&gsd2co=1%2cAll+Countries&gsd2pl=1%2c+&sbo=0&sbor=&ufr=0&wp=4%3b_80000002%3b_80000003&srchb=r&prox=1&ti=5538&ti.si=0&gss=angs-b&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=91002&recoff=1+2&db=uki1891channel&indiv=1



Titus coupled with the surname Higgs can't be a very common name I wouldn't have thought.

[Margaret in Burton]

Well I would consider Titus an unusual name but maybe it wasn't.

[ElizabethHerts]

But:

1851
HIGGS, Titus Head Unmarried M 22 1829 Plumber & Glazier (Employing One Man) Heckfield Hampshire
HIGGS, Harriet Sister Unmarried F 29 1822 Heckfield Hampshire
HIGGS, Ann Sister Unmarried F 24 1827 Heckfield Hampshire VIEW
JORDAN, Ann Visitor Unmarried F 48 1803 (Formerly Househould Servant)
Stone Worcestershire

He has a sister Harriet too but their ages are wrong! No wonder I'm confused!

[maggie_4_7]

But:

1851
HIGGS, Titus Head Unmarried M 22 1829 Plumber & Glazier (Employing One Man) Heckfield Hampshire
HIGGS, Harriet Sister Unmarried F 29 1822 Heckfield Hampshire
HIGGS, Ann Sister Unmarried F 24 1827 Heckfield Hampshire VIEW
JORDAN, Ann Visitor Unmarried F 48 1803 (Formerly Househould Servant)
Stone Worcestershire

He has a sister Harriet too but their ages are wrong! No wonder I'm confused!

I think they must be related, same area, same names, Henry Titus Higgs was a Glaszier on one of the marriages.

[Margaret in Burton]

Probably connected somewhere if you go far enough back, cousins maybe.

[Merry]

Both Tituses (is that the right spelling??!) are on the 1851 census - one b 1829 and the other 1843 (from memory).

Roast pork is waiting.................

[Merry]

Maybe we should be getting the archivist who helped John Prescott to help with the Higgs problem? Right up her street!

[maggie_4_7]

Roast pork is waiting.................


mmmmmmm lovely don't tease me :p

[samesizedfeet]

I'm dribbling at the roast pork too!!!

I was up until 2.30am playing around with things and have got absolutely nowhere

[ElizabethHerts]

The Titus I found is the one who died in Sep qr 1879 aged 50 in the Hartley Witney district. His children and widow can be found afterwards. Frances is a nurse away from home on the 1881 census.

[peppie]

Both Tituses (is that the right spelling??!) are on the 1851 census - one b 1829 and the other 1843 (from memory).

Roast pork is waiting.................
1848 living with grandparents and other siblings/cousins....

[Uncle John]

This thread is giving me a headache, never mind being able to work out what's going on.

[Olde Crone]

*Brightens up considerably now the possibility of parallel families has returned*

OC

[Merry]

*Brightens up considerably now the possibility of parallel families has returned*

OC

How's that then?

[Phoenix]

Both Titus & Mr Shaw were in the army. If they got to draw pensions, then they would be within WO 97. Okay, not online, but available at Kew. Thes would show when they signed up, names of next of kin and dependents and where they served.

This has to be investigated, as it would at least suggest where the men might have been on census nights.

[samesizedfeet]

oooooh - Phoenix, Thanks for that. And I'm off work Friday and may be able to fit a quick dash over to Kew in. How long should it take roughly??

[Phoenix]

This is the reference for any Higgs discharged post 1882: WO 97/3049

Before that, this is the relevant research guide: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletID=14

[Phoenix]

oooooh - Phoenix, Thanks for that. And I'm off work Friday and may be able to fit a quick dash over to Kew in. How long should it take roughly??

Not sure for the earlier stuff. The later stuff is very quick: they come in big cardboard boxes, arranged alphabetically. Order in advance (if you have a reader's ticket) and you won't have to wait. Production time otherwise is approx 40 minutes.

[carbines]

I have just been looking at all the info re Titus Higgs he died about Sept 1892 Jersey

[Phoenix]

An awful lot has come online since this thread has started.

Titus is in the army in 1861, and the newspapers state that he comminted suicide, but NO REASON WAS GIVEN.


I think we might be able to suggest one.

[marquette]

Well I would consider Titus an unusual name but maybe it wasn't.

I have just been reading through - I have to say I have often thought the same about some names, only to find it's not "uncommon" at all.

I thought Thomas Collis in Hampshire/Berkshire would be fairly uncommon, but several people have him mixed up. The only one you cannot get wrong is Farmborough Collis !

I would say that "Henry Higgs" is far more common and would not be surprised if there were two in the Basingstoke area.

*goes off to check database for Higgs connections*

[carbines]

Sept 1892 Suicide de Sergent Instructeur Titus Higgs. Enquete verdict -- coup de feu (gunshot) as you say Phoenix we can guess the reason

[carbines]

Birth son of Ellen & Titus

05 July 1879 Edwin Charles Higgs Father Titus Higgs Mother Ellen Emma Higgs formerly Shaw Father's Occupation Sergeant Notts Militia

Marriage Charles & Ellen

29 June St Laurence Church
Charles Harmston Full Age Widower, Labourer--- Father William Harmston Labourer
Ellen Emma Higgs Full Age Widow Father Richard Godden Shoemaker
Charles signed X Witnesses Charles W Harmston & Sarah Ann Brown