any ideas please - new one on me

[garstonite]

Do any experienced researchers know what this means please ??
from Lan-opc site
1832 baptism
Abode: Failsworth
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: J. L. M. O. M.

do those abbreviations mean something I should note down ??
J L M O M ??
The church is St Margaret of Antioch ,Hollinwodd ,Lancashire
or is this just the ministers name abbreviations ??

thanks
allan
added
all the other baptisms at that church in that period are baptised by J Holme

[Merry]

John Lees Miller Off. Minister

I googled the initials you gave along with Hollinwood and some of the other baps that appeared along with the one you mention showed the above as the minister. :D

(I presume 'off' = officiating)

[Merry]

And the reason you didn't see it is because I've just realised the results I got are for a nearby church, not the one you were looking at. This chap seems to have mostly worked at St Leonard, Middleton, Lancashire which I guess is near Hollinwood as some of the people were living there when they had their children baptised.

[garstonite]

Thanks very much Merry - you clever girl .....all I know is that Hollinwood comes under Oldham .......
cheers
allan ( having a research day in my dressing gown ...lol)

struggling to find my gg grandfathers sibling after 1851 census on my mothers side of the family ... to be honest - not that important , but I would have liked to find a marriage for him
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NF6R-TXJ
i fear this may be him
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDG6-5T6
- if it is , can you advise me on how I find out whether he was transported to Australia or if he stayed in prison in Manchester - with it stating 1859 -1863 I presume he stayed here ??
thanks
always take heed of your advice ...
allan

[kiterunner]

The second link you posted has a button to click to view the full image on FMP, Allan. On the image, his offence is shown as "Assaulting Eliza Hartley at Bury" and he was sentenced to 1 calendar month hard labour. His occupation is coachman and his birthplace Whitworth. Residence Paradise St, Bury. Religion C of E. Discharged 8 Jun 1859.

[kiterunner]

There is a Richard Hartley baptised at Whitworth in 1835 so I don't think that prisoner record will be your Richard, Allan.

[kiterunner]

There is this household in 1881:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/WRYRG11_4646_4649-0043/25550975?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

119 & 121 Scotland St, Sheffield
Richard Hartley Head Mar 41 Shopkeeper & Hawker Lancashire Salford
Mary Emma Do Daur Unm 25 Yorkshire Sheffield
John Do Son 8 Scholar Do Do
Richard Do Son 1 Do Do
Elizabeth Frazer Serv Unm 19 Domestic Servant Do Leeds

[garstonite]

Thank you very much Kate ....that 1881 result looks very good - Richards brother John Hartley ( my gg grandfather)was a Butcher and he had shops - when he died his wife Martha is down as Shopkeeper - I didn't figure on Richard going to Sheffield -but I wonder if he ran one of his brothers Butchers shops ??
thanks again ...something to have a look at ....cheers
allan

ADDED - just noticed - Mary Emma dau aged 25 unmarried - and Richard is only 41 ??...do you think that is his daughter or step daughter ?
no Mary E or Mary Hartley b 1853-1856 in Sheffield ??....looks like a step daughter who has changed her surname ??

[kiterunner]

This is that 1881 family in 1891:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/WRYRG12_3816_3818-0522/5221160?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1891%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhartl*%26gsln_x%3d1 %26msbdy%3d1874%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%2 6msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3dric *%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng%3dmary%26msm ng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26msbns0_x%3 d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26 mscns0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

4 Bates Sqr, Sheffield
Richard Hartley Head M 47 Hawker Manchester
Mary Ann Do Wife M 37 Sheffield
John Do Son S 17 Do
Richard Do Son S 12 Scholar Do
Lily Do Daug 2 Do
Albert Do Son 5M Do

[kiterunner]

And 1901 (still trying to find something to confirm or disprove that this is your Richard!)

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/YRKRG13_4363_4366-0779/27792604?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

8 Broad Lane, Sheffield
Richard Hartley Head M 56 Hawker & Marine Stores Dealer Lancs Salford
Mary E Do Wife M 42 Yorks Sheffield
Richard Do Son S 21 Railway Carter Yorks Sheffield
Lily Do Daur 12 Yorks Sheffield
Mary E Do Daur 2 Yorks Sheffield

It looks as though "Daur" for Mary Emma on the 1881 census was a mistake and it should have been "Wife".

[kiterunner]

Mary Emma is a widow in 1911 and so hasn't filled in the section on number of years married and number of children.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_27887_0097_03/31361791?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911England%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_ r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d mary%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhartl*%26gsln_x%3d1%26m sbdy%3d1899%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn__ftp _x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msf ng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1 %26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26ms cng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dshef*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2% 26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[kiterunner]

This could be Richard in 1861:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/WRYRG9_3462_3465-0150/11440616?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1861%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dric*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhartl*%26gsln_x% 3d1%26msbdy%3d1837%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msb pn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d 1%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmn s_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3 d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d% 26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAiP wBxNhM-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[garstonite]

each census has Richard born Salford - 1836 year fits and I can't see any other Salford births for Richard Hartley around 1836 ??....looks like my Richard to me ...maybe I am getting carried away ...

[kiterunner]

What we really need is to find the marriage between Richard Hartley and Mary Emma to get his father's name.

[garstonite]

I have looked on freebmd / lancsbmd/cheshbmd - can't see any to a Mary Emma - couple of Mary Elizabeths - and too many as just Mary ....ah well ....thanks very much Kate... for your invaluable help ...it does look like my Richard - I will carry on looking for a marriage that fits ....cheers
allan
added - this is my gg grandfather and ggg grandparents in 1851 - as I say , Richard is not a DIRECT ancestor - but I would have liked to find a marriage for him ... never mind
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKK9-N2WV
although it says b 1838 - he was born xmas eve 1836

[kiterunner]

There is a possible marriage between Richard Barker Hartley and Mary Emma Whitcombe Jul-Sep 1887 Sheffield. If this is them, then perhaps Richard was previously married and so unable to marry Mary Emma until then, hence her listing as "unmarried daughter" in 1881?

Aha! Found the marriage cert on FMP:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2fenglyor1d_pr-12-6%2f00065&parentid=gbprs%2fyorkshire%2fmar%2f202016941%2f1&highlights=%22%22

31 Jul 1887 Hollis Croft, Yorkshire
Richard Barker Hartley, 44, widower, hawker, residence 4 Bates Square, father Jeremiah Hartley (deceased), drysalter
Mary Emma Whitcombe, 33, spinster, same address, father Edward Whitcombe (deceased), engineer
Witnesses Robert Crookes, Elizabeth Coguthorpe(?)

[kiterunner]

So, we still have his first marriage to find!

[kiterunner]

Here we are:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_194827-00759/2164823?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26gss%3dsfs28_ms _db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1% 26gsfn%3dric*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26msgdd%3d5%26msgdd_x%3 d1%26msgdm%3d4%26msgdm_x%3d1%26msgdy%3d1865%26msgd y_x%3d1%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26ms fng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26mssng0%3dmary%26mssng0_x %3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

St Mary Whitechapel, London
5 Apr 1865
Richard Hartley, full age, bachelor, occupation traveller, residence Whitechapel, father Jeremiah Hartley, labourer
Mary Fitzpatrick, full age, spinster, residence Whitechapel, father John Fitzpatrick, labourer
Witnesses William Crawford, Louisa Crawford

[garstonite]

Kate - you are a star ...sorry I haven't been online lately -I have been very down / not well - just felt weak - I will add those 2 marriages to my family tree ....thanks again - progress made ...well done you ...xxxxxxx
added...because of your finds - I have found 6 granchildren in Salford 1918 - 1928
brilliant