View Full Version : Where was Joseph Alfred Hiron / Isles in 1851?
Here's another little mystery for anyone interested!
Joseph Alfred Hiron was born in Spring 1841 in Alveston, Gloucestershire. His parents were Frederick Hiron / Heron and Anne Isles / Iles. His birth is here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=11277569&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420678&usePUB=true), his marriage to Eliza Philips is here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8913&h=13901275&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420678&usePUB=true), and his death is here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8914&h=16317494&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420678&usePUB=true).
I have checked the date for the 1841 census, which was taken in April, and so Joseph will just have missed it. His parents are on separate census records at that time, and neither has a baby with them, so I doubt he was born.
In 1851, the family - minus Joseph - are together here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1851&indiv=try&h=7599303).
In 1861, he is here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8767&h=18079508&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420678&usePUB=true) with his parents and sister Caroline, who died a few years later. Joseph died in the winter of 1870/1, so obviously he isn't on the 1871 census.
As part of my search, I tried looking for a Joseph Alfred Isles, in case he had been living under his mother's name, and it does seem she had him baptized in her name (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9841&h=10081176&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420678&usePUB=true) despite the birth being registered in his father's. I can't find another Joseph Alfred Isles in the same area/timeframe, and as it looks like his parents married some years after his birth I'm pretty confident it's the same person.
Where, then, was Joseph in 1851?
I have checked the date for the 1841 census, which was taken in April
No, it was taken 6 June 1841 :D
I haven't looked at the page yet, but how about
Joseph Pils abt 1841 Gloucestershire, England Alveston, Gloucestershire
EDIT This is the 1841 census, not the 1851 which you asked about! See Sue's post below.
Sue from Southend
16-12-15, 15:50
On Ancestry he's transcribed as Fales, living with his Grandparents in Alveston
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=joseph&gsfn_x=0&msbdy=1841&msbpn__ftp=Alveston%2c+Gloucestershire%2c+England&msbpn=83750&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5265%7c83750% 7c0%7c&MSAV=1&uidh=zs8&pcat=1851UKI&h=7627277&recoff=5&db=uki1851&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2
His parents are on separate census records at that time, and neither has a baby with them
Maybe you have a different record for his mother, as I think she is in this household with her parents and Joseph:
Alveston
William Pils 50 Butcher
Ann Pils 50
Ann Pils Junr. 20
Henry Pils 15
Elizabeth Pils 14
Joseph Pils 3 Mo
They all have Yes for born in county.
@Sue
I think that could well be him. Wonderful, thanks so much. :D
EDIT: I've submitted a transcription error report as 'Isles'.
@Merry
Here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Frederick&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Hiron&gsln_x=0&msbpn__ftp=Alveston%2c+Gloucestershire%2c+England&msbpn=83750&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5265%7c83750% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=2021955&recoff=6+7&db=uki1841&indiv=1&ml_rpos=6) is Frederick in 1841, and here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=uki1841&indiv=try&h=15892939) is Ann -- or at least what I have so far.
What do you think?
His birth was registered Apr-May-Jun and his baptism was July 23rd.
What do you think?
I think you have the wrong Ann Iles in 1841 as the grandparents on the 1841 I posted (which also includes Ann Iles jr) are the same names as on Sue's 1851 census.
Thanks for your help, Merry. I've replaced my 1841 census with that one, and changed his DOB to April 1841 (to match the 3 months... although it could even be March)
Thanks again for your help, ladies. :)
Incidentally, are there some Bristol / Gloucestershire 1861 census records missing? I'm trying to find Eliza Phillips in 1861, and even just searching Eliza (no surname) it's just throwing up a few 1861 census samples, and then the Welsh census records. There's little/nothing for the area I'm researching. Either I've made a really obvious mistake (I did check my search criteria) or something is amiss...
There are lists of missing stuff on fmp but I don't remember there being much/any chunks missing from Gloucestershire in 1861.
What details did you search? I'll see how many matches I get if you like.
She's Eliza Hiron in 1871, widow of the aforementioned Joseph Alfred Hiron. At that point she's living with her son and her in-laws.
In 1841 she's 1 year old in Henbury, living with parents Thomas & Ann.
In 1851 she's 10 years old in Henbury, living with parents Thomas & Anelia (Ann).
I can't find anything for 1861. She didn't marry Joseph until 1868, so she should be Eliza Phillips.
The trouble is, if she is a servant somewhere and her age and/or birthplace have been guessed then she might become invisible.
anne fraser
16-12-15, 19:33
Remember a lot of Bristol comes under Somerset.
No need to read through all this as it hasn't been the subject of discussion here before. I'm trying to find where Eliza Phillips came from, and specifically where her birth registration is.
I'll list what I have here, as that would seem the easiest thing to do:
1841 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=1998891&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true)
1851 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=7599236&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true)
1861 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8767&h=18168626&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true)
1871 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7619&h=1284456&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true)
birth (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8912&h=27777253&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true) (currently... but I'm thinking this is probably wrong)
baptism (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=9842&h=1432958&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true) (I think; only found this today)
marriage (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8913&h=22507594&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true)
death (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8914&h=16317371&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420677&usePUB=true)
The 1840 birth registration I've had for her so far has mmn Bryant, but I believe Henbury and Compton-Greenfield should both be in the Clifton district, so I am now doubting myself.
I'm also intrigued by the older sister, Louisa Phillips, who appears on the 1841 census. I can't find a birth or baptism for her, and because I'm unable to find both sisters with the same mmn I'm wondering if I've made a mistake somewhere.
The other information I have for Eliza is correct and so her having the wrong birth wouldn't change anything (AFAIK) but of course it's always important to have the correct sources and so I wondered if someone could take a look for me.
You linked to the bap you found for Eliza in Compton Greenfield. There is this one too:
Louisa Philips bap 16 Dec 1838 Compton-Greenfield, Compton, Gloucestershire parents Thomas and Ann
I note that you are correct that Compton Greenfield and Henbury are in Clifton district at this time, but on the 1841 census Ancestry thinks Henbury is in Thornbury District which is wrong (correct for a few decades later!). Sometimes I get lazy and believe what Ancestry says :o. This time I checked!!
As Louisa is a less common forename and there are no registrations at the right time listed as Female Phillips either then I don't think she is registered for birth. Quite likely Eliza isn't either.
Looking at marriages for Thomas Phi*s to Ann* around the right time, there is one to an Ann Powell in 1837 (wrong side of 1st July!) - I don't think this s the one as there is an Annette Emma Phillips mmn Powell born and died in Bristol District in (erm can't remember? 1839/40?) which is too close to the births of your Louisa/Eliza to fit. I also saw a marriage at the start of 1837 to an Ann Smith!! Of course that one is far more likely/difficult to prove! :D
Did you see that Thomas Phillips remarried in 1850 to Amelia Attwell(s). Though mmn Attwell was used on at least one of their children's births Amelia was a widow when she married Thomas and her father's name was Davis/Davies. I really should make a note of these things or give you a link! Thomas's father's first name was Philip. I did wonder if that was transcribed corrected, but haven't looked into it.
I do find that when you show us what info you have already by giving links without any written explanation I get very confused as I end up with so many open links I then can't find the one I need to look at. It also takes me a lot longer to work out what you are 'saying'!! So, I'm probably being equally annoying (!) by doing the opposite :o It's not deliberate :D
I looked at Phillips/Smith births in Bristol and Clifton 1837-1846, but only found one match. That child (Emma Charlotte 1846) turned out to be the dau of Joseph Phillips and Charlotte Smith who married in 1839. Of course finding no other Phillips/Smith births proves nothing. Ann Smith might have been a widow in 1837. She might have had no children (etc etc), or she might be the person you are looking for!
When I do Ancestry searches in Gloucestershire I often get results in the Bristol, England, Select Church of England Parish Registers, 1720-1933. When I open the list it is often blank or has just a few entries compared with the number suggested. Does that happen to you too? It's been like that for me for at least a year - prob a lot longer.
This looks like the best fit for Ann's death:
PHILLIPS, ANN aged 26 GRO Reference 1842 S Quarter in THE CLIFTON UNION Volume 11 Page 231
kiterunner
27-08-17, 08:44
When I do Ancestry searches in Gloucestershire I often get results in the Bristol, England, Select Church of England Parish Registers, 1720-1933. When I open the list it is often blank or has just a few entries compared with the number suggested. Does that happen to you too? It's been like that for me for at least a year - prob a lot longer.
I think it's because it is counting matches where the name you searched for is the name of a parent, but then it doesn't include them in the ones which it shows you.
I just read back the earlier part of this thread. In post #11 you said:
In 1851 she's 10 years old in Henbury, living with parents Thomas & Anelia (Ann).
Amelia and Ann are different people. I know I said that in my last long post, but I hadn't realised you were thinking they were one and the same!
I think it's because it is counting matches where the name you searched for is the name of a parent, but then it doesn't include them in the ones which it shows you.
Ah, OK thanks Kate. I hadn't thought of that!
Ah, OK thanks Kate. I hadn't thought of that!
Hmmm... I searched Tho* Phil*s spouse Ann* married 1837 and got one match on those Bristol records but nothing when I clicked to open the set (as I expected). I then changed the search to just Phil*s marrying 1837 and again got one match but this time I could open it. There was nothing on the transcription to reflect the words Tho* or Ann* though. I had expected either the bride or groom's father to have forename Thomas and the church to be St Ann's, but no..... ;(
Oooh, on the 1841 census you linked to there is Philip Phillips shoemaker 61 at the bottom of the opposite page! Next to him is William and Anna Smith with a dau Mary Ann aged 8 months. I guess Philip is Thomas's father. I wonder if William Smith is a relative of Ann's?
So the second Ann is in fact her step-mother. Interesting.
Good job, Merry!
Not sure why I couldn't find Louisa's baptism when I looked. Typical.
It seems odd that neither child's birth would be registered. I wonder what the story there is. Maybe we're just missing something...
Working from the birth reg for the daughter, mmn Strong, William's wife is Hannah Strong m 1840. From the transcribed marriage and the 1851 census his father is John Smith. From 1851 census William SMith was born 1815/16 at Almondsbury.
No doubt he will have a sister Ann about the right age, but we still can't be sure that is the same person who married Thomas P.
Baps for Almondsbury - need to find some....
So the second Ann is in fact her step-mother. Interesting.
She's not a second ANn, she's Amelia!!
I thought it said Annelia, which is an odd name, but I've seen many odd names! I just took it that she sometimes shortened it to Ann, which would make sense. :D
And yes I saw the other Phillips family but didn't think anything of it at the time.
FMP:
William Smith 24 Apr 1814 John Nancy Almondsbury, St Mary
Ann was 26 in 1842, so.....
Ann Smith 23 Jun 1816 John Ann Almondsbury, St Mary
But is it the correct Ann??!
If you thought Ann and Amelia were the same person you should have looked at the later censuses as the children of Thomas and Amelia were registered!:D
kiterunner
27-08-17, 10:39
Hmmm... I searched Tho* Phil*s spouse Ann* married 1837 and got one match on those Bristol records but nothing when I clicked to open the set (as I expected). I then changed the search to just Phil*s marrying 1837 and again got one match but this time I could open it. There was nothing on the transcription to reflect the words Tho* or Ann* though. I had expected either the bride or groom's father to have forename Thomas and the church to be St Ann's, but no..... ;(
Strange.
If your Thomas Phillips did marry Ann Smith of Almondsbury, then another snippet is that Ann had a sister named Louisa, same as her first child. These are the Smith siblings (children of John and Ann/Nancy Smith) bap at Almondsbury:
William 24 Apr 1814
Ann 23 Jun 1816
Mary 25 Jan 1818
Eliza 29 Sep 1822
Louisa 29 Sep 1822
George 29 Jun 1828
Joseph 29 Jun 1828
So, am I correct in thinking the Compton-Greenfield baptism is for the correct Eliza Phillips as you've also found one for her sister Louisa, but as yet no birth registrations for either?
Yes, at the moment that seems to best fit.
When I do Ancestry searches in Gloucestershire I often get results in the Bristol, England, Select Church of England Parish Registers, 1720-1933. When I open the list it is often blank or has just a few entries compared with the number suggested. Does that happen to you too? It's been like that for me for at least a year - prob a lot longer.
Yes, and similar problems, too. I'll report it.
Joseph Alfred's father was Frederick Hiron, and I've got him sorted. From what I can gather, Frederick had two younger brothers named John (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1960&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=Hiron&gsln_x=1&msfng=Christopher&msfng_x=1&msmng=Hester&msmng_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=2&uidh=yke&pcat=34&h=1328830&dbid=9842&indiv=1&ml_rpos=5) and Henry (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=whH1960&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsln=Hiron&gsln_x=1&msfng=Christopher&msfng_x=1&msmng=Hester&msmng_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=2&uidh=yke&pcat=34&h=65824535&dbid=9841&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2). John I can probably sort out, and I suspect he is the Q1 1897 death in Thornbury.
Henry, however, I can't seem to find any trace of after his baptism. There is a "Henry Haron" at St Briavels in 1841, but I've no idea if it's actually the same person. I thought maybe a fresh pair of eyes could find something more concrete?
It's possible there were other siblings, but because of the issues with the Bristol archives that Merry has mentioned, searching them is extremely tedious.
kiterunner
28-08-17, 16:02
The Bristol Select Parish Registers database on ancestry is just a copy of a database from FamilySearch anyway, so you could always search it on FamilySearch instead?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1718965
I'll have a look for Henry if you post up details of what you already know about him.
I only know of the baptism I linked above, Kate, and who his parents were. He doesn't appear on any census records alongside family members as far as I know.
Oh...
Name Hiron
Event Type Burial
Event Date 01 Apr 1827
Event Place Alveston, St Helen, Gloucestershire, England
Age 0
Birth Year (Estimated) 1827
Could be him. This never showed up on Ancestry.
This never showed up on Ancestry.
it is there, so I don't know why it didn't show up for you?
The Bristol Select Parish Registers database on ancestry is just a copy of a database from FamilySearch anyway, so you could always search it on FamilySearch instead?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1718965
Thanks. I'd forgotten about that.
I don't suppose anyone can find a baptism for Christopher Hiron b. 1785/86 in Alveston, Gloucestershire? Not sure who the parents were, but he's in Alveston in 1841 and 1851.
There is another man of the same name and age born in Clifford Chambers; he has baptism and burial records (1785/1864) and was a parish clerk in Stratford -upon-Avon. He is definitely not the same man.
kiterunner
28-08-17, 21:55
FamilySearch doesn't seem to have indexed Alveston PR baptisms for those dates, James, but they have a digitised film, number 4254986, which can be viewed at FamilySearch Centres.
Their catalogue says it covers "Baptisms, burials, 1742-1812; marriages, 1743-1799." They also have a digitised film number 1595498 which covers Alveston BT's and again, you can view it at FamilySearch Centres.
kiterunner
28-08-17, 22:04
Oh, but wait - I just realised I have a CD of transcriptions!
Christopher Hiron bap 18 May 1788 Alveston, son of John and Elizabeth.
Other children of the same couple: Betty 13 Feb 1774, John 26 Mar 1780, Mary 7 Jul 1782, Nancy 17 May 1778, Nicholas 18 May 1788, Sarah 24 Apr 1791.
kiterunner
28-08-17, 22:09
And on the marriages disk, John Hiron married Elizabeth Lippiat 14 Apr 1773 at Alveston, by licence. He was of St James Bristol, she was of Alveston. The transcription doesn't show the witnesses' names.
kiterunner
28-08-17, 22:13
Sarah Hiron, daughter of John, was buried 26 Jun 1792 at Alveston. Can't find burials for the rest of them on my burial indexes.
Thank you very much, Kate!
It's funny you mention someone named Lippiat; I saw that name earlier on a public tree as being Christopher's wife's maiden name - which is wrong - and wondered where on earth the tree owner got it from, so now I can assume it was some kind of confusion with transcriptions. It's funny how sometimes a name just sticks out to you.
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