View Full Version : Where was James Brown in 1861?
Hi all,
I am trying to trace a man named James Brown, and I cannot find him on the 1861 census.
According to his 1841/51/71/81 census records he was born in 1837/8 in Porlock, Somerset. His 22/04/1866 marriage certificate to Emma Elizabeth Cowley says he is a widower, so I wonder if he may be with his first wife (whose name is unknown to me) in 1861, but of course he may have married after this date. I have no idea.
He seems to have died by 1891 as his widow is head of the family at that point, and as her youngest child is 3 on that year's census, and as there is a June 1888 (http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?r=79917186:9382&d=bmd_1448300351) death entry for a James Brown (matching his age) then I'd guess that is him.
If you just search census records on Ancestry for James Brown and Porlock, Somerset then his stuff will appear right at the top, but I can't find anything for 1861 with him in. I've found his father and two brothers and their families, but nothing for James.
Obviously it's a common name, but so far I think my details are all correct as they do seem to tie in with another family members, etc.
Any ideas where he's lurking?
kiterunner
13-12-15, 21:39
The tree that you linked to there is private, James.
Arghh, I am an idiot, sorry! I totally forgot about that. :D
I think I've found his first wife, anyway.
Elizabeth Martin, married (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Elizabeth&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Martin&gsln_x=NN&msbdy=1832&msgdy=1861&mssng0=James&mssns0=Brown&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=34&h=2311032&db=FS1EnglandBristolParishRegisters&indiv=1&ml_rpos=5) 17/02/1861 in Bristol. There's a burial record (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Elizabeth&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Brown&gsln_x=NN&msbdy=1832&msddy=1863&msddy_x=1&msddp=2&msdpn__ftp=Bristol%2c+Gloucestershire%2c+England&msdpn=202043&msdpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5265%7c202043 %7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=34&h=1144747&db=FS1EnglandBristolParishRegisters&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1) for an Elizabeth Brown in the right area at the right time/age, which I think could be her. Here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=Elizabeth&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Brown&gsln_x=NN&msbdy=1832&msddy=1863&msddy_x=1&msddp=2&msdpn__ftp=Bristol%2c+Gloucestershire%2c+England&msdpn=202043&msdpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5265%7c202043 %7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=34&h=4407002&db=FreeBMDDeath&indiv=1&ml_rpos=9) is the corresponding death entry.
Census records: 1841 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8978&h=13359868&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420679&usePUB=true) 1851 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=8860&h=7115624&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420679&usePUB=true) 1871 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7619&h=1277789&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420679&usePUB=true) 1881 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7572&h=6104546&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42519420679&usePUB=true)
Apparently the 1861 census was taken in April, and so James should be with Elizabeth Martin at that time.
kiterunner
13-12-15, 22:33
That Bristol marriage transcription gives James's father's name as William Brown; is that correct for your James?
Yes, as far as I know, although James is the top person in my family tree.
His father was William, and he had brothers called William Jr and Amos. I've found census records for both of them, but not James.
Were you assuming Amos and William were his brothers because they are all grandsons on the 1851 census? (EDIT See next post :o)
I saw William Brown (mason) with wife Ann in Porlock in 1851 and wondered if James was their son but living with grandparents. The problem with that was William and Ann didn't have much of a gap between their other children in which to squeeze James!
I found some transcribed baps for Porlock and found this one which might be James:
James Brown mother Ann Porlock (base born) 25 12 1836
I wonder if William Brown from James' marriage cert was an uncle rather than his father?
This looks like William's bap:
William Brown parents John/Sarah Porlock Mason 11 4 1813
and he did have a sister, Ann:
Ann Brown John/Sarah Porlock Mason 13 2 1819 (EDIT: I expect that is her aged 21 with her parents and (probable) son on the 1841 census link you gave)
I don't have time for any more, but here's the link to the baps site:
http://www.wsom.org.uk/Parreg.html
Were you assuming Amos and William were his brothers because they are all grandsons on the 1851 census?
Now I'm more awake I realise I don't know where I got that from! lol (only one Brown grandson on the 1851!)
So, what was your source for the two brother's names?
Merry, both of James' marriage certificates have William Brown as being the father: 1861 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBristolParishRegisters&h=2311033) 1866 (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=FS1EnglandBristolParishRegisters&h=1476197)
Looking at the ages, I agree that Amos won't be William's son, but perhaps a brother. William Jr is likely his son, though.
1861: William (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=uki1861&h=17892763) William Jr (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=uki1861&h=17892179) Amos (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=uki1861&h=17892417)
Sorry for the mix-up! I was quite tired when I found the other family members. :o
Curiously, I cannot seem to find Emma Cowley in 1861 either, although I have found her in 1851 and 1871 - 1911.
Merry, both of James' marriage certificates have William Brown as being the father
Do you actually have the certs? I wouldn't be confident about the first one unless I'd seen the occupation of the groom and 'father'.
I'm still not convinced James isn't William's nephew!
No, I don't have any copies.
So is it a transcription that says he was a widower at the second marriage?
Yeah, it's just what's on the Ancestry record. Sadly the image is not available to view.
I think I've found his first wife, anyway.
Elizabeth Martin, married 17/02/1861 in Bristol. There's a burial record for an Elizabeth Brown in the right area at the right time/age, which I think could be her.
He might also have married Elizabeth Tucker in 1858 or Elizabeth Newton in 1862 (both in Bristol) and both with the groom's father as William.
Of course if William Brown was his uncle he may have put something different on the first marriage cert or no father's name!
I still can't see him in 1861.
It's interesting that in the newspaper notice for his second marriage he says he is 'of Porlock' which could suggest he had been living there before his second marriage:
The Bristol Mercury 28 Apr 1866:
Marriages: April 22, at St. James's Church, Bristol, Mr. James Brown, of Porlock, Somerset, to Emma, eldest daughter of Mr. Walter Cowley, of Westbury-on-Trim.
This might be Emma in 1861: http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/GLSRG9_1724_1729-0341?pid=19370977&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1861%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3demma%26gsfn_x%3dXO %26msbpn__ftp%3dWestbury%2bon%2bTrym%252c%2bGlouce stershire%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1665185%26msbpn _PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5265%257c1665185%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3 d9vh%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d6%26h%3d19370977%26recoff% 3d%26ml_rpos%3d7&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true
kiterunner
15-12-15, 19:11
James, this old Rootschat thread says that your James is the illegitimate son of Ann Brown:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=215173.0
kiterunner
15-12-15, 19:18
Also there is an old Rootsweb thread which says that the marriage to Elizabeth Marten was ruled out by looking at the 1871 census, but I'm not sure exactly what they found:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Bristol_and_Somerset/2007-06/1180907897
Edit - just realised it says the same on the Rootschat thread, but I still don't know exactly what they found that ruled them out.
I'd been trying to find Ann after the 1841 census, but with no joy so far.
I have found a James Brown, stonemason and builder, living at 6 Earl Street, St James' Bristol, listed in the 1858 Matthew's Directory for Bristol. This could be him. The address he gave on his second marriage certificate was Eugene Street, Bristol - close to Earl Street.
The above is from the Rootsweb thread.
I can't find an Earl St in the parish of St James Bristol in 1861.
The above is from the Rootsweb thread.
I can't find an Earl St in the parish of St James Bristol in 1861.
Found it now lol No Browns yet...........
6 Earl Street, St James' Bristol
In 1861 this address is a pub - the White Bear. The landlord on the 1861 is John Gullick aged 23.
James' birth place is listed as Porlock on the census records I've found for him so far, so it makes sense.
Interesting links/info... I'll have a read.
EDIT: 'Because James Brown is such a common name I have had great difficulty in discovering his first marriage. I have found a James Brown marrying in 1861 (in St James' Parish, Bristol), an Elizabeth Marten but have ruled this couple out by extensive searches of the censuses.'
Elizabeth Marten/Martin died between the 1861 and 1871 censuses, so I'm not sure why their marriage could be ruled out by studying census records? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
@Phoenix
Well spotted! That does indeed look to be her. Many thanks.
@Kate
It's interesting that, according to the old Rootschat archive you linked, Emma Elizabeth Cowley is the poster's biological grandmother. Well, she is my great-great-great grandmother, so I do wonder how that works out. I realize that family trees are funny things, and especially when you have ~12 children and thus great age gaps, but given that she was born in 1844 it does make wonder exactly who he is, and how old he is.
I might send an e-mail to the guy above his post on Rootschat, and hope the address still works. I'd certainly be curious to get in touch. I hope he is still alive.
EDIT: Well, the e-mail didn't bounce straight back. That's a good sign.
Elizabeth Marten/Martin died between the 1861 and 1871 censuses, so I'm not sure why their marriage could be ruled out by studying census records? Perhaps I'm missing something here.
How do you know that she died in that time frame? If the 1861 marriage wasn't for your James then the death you found might not be the right one.
kiterunner
16-12-15, 07:00
It's interesting that, according to the old Rootschat archive you linked, Emma Elizabeth Cowley is the poster's biological grandmother.
It says that James and Emma are his / her great-grandparents and John Edward (born 1867-8) is his / her grandfather.
I realise we can't be at all sure that James's first wife was called Elizabeth something, but all the same, I keep coming back to these records and wondering if they might be connected to this James (just a feeling!)
John Edwin Brown, Christening 08 Dec 1861 Westbury on Trym, Holy Trinity, Gloucestershire, parents James and Elizabeth
(Births Dec 1861 BROWN John Edwin Clifton 6a 135)
John Edward Brown, Burial 25 Jan 1863 Westbury on Trym, Holy Trinity, Gloucestershire
(Deaths Mar 1863 BROWN John Edward Clifton 6a 107)
....and then James has another John Edward in 1867 (if it's the same James that is!).
In case the birth and death are not the same child (given the variation in middle name) I've tried hard to find John E born late 1861 on the 1871 census to no avail.
Kate, that's my fault for not reading the full correspondence first! :D
That Mike replied to my e-mail, and has given me an e-mail address for the lady who made the initial inquiry, so I'll contact her and see how she got on. It's been a few years, so I wonder whether she'll have uncovered the mystery.
Of course, the alternative is that it all gets a bit The Missing Page (any Hancock fans?)
The above is from the Rootsweb thread.
I can't find an Earl St in the parish of St James Bristol in 1861.
A comment on RootsWeb in relation to the James Brown in Earl Street says:
'James Brown, mason and builder, 6 Earl street also appears in the 1848 Mathews' Directory, so probably not the one you're looking for.'
Oh good lol!! Thanks Shona :)
@Merry
I suspect that the John Edward Brown you mention is the son of James and his second wife, Emma Elizabeth Cowley. There's a John E. Brown listed on a couple of public family trees on Ancestry, along with a number of siblings. I don't tend to put much stock in those trees, but it's very likely the same person.
Of the children, I only need Emma Lydia Brown for my family tree, as I am not doing the entire Brown family, but you can see John Edward Brown and various other siblings alongside her here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7572&h=6104597&ssrc=pt&tid=85149586&pid=42514508434&usePUB=true) in the 1881 census.
James Brown 44
Emma Brown 36
John E. Brown 14
Annie Brown 11
Emma L. Brown 9
James Brown 7
Walter H. Brown 4
Rose A. Brown 2
I've not had a reply from that lady yet. Judging by another post (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BRISTOL_AND_DISTRICT/2007-09/1190212875) her name is Iris and her e-mail address is public, but obviously this was 2007 so I have no idea whether she is still using that e-mail address, or indeed even still alive.
I wonder if the mystery of James Brown and his first wife will ever be solved. :(
The John Edward Brown, son of James and Emma Elizabeth was born in 1867. The one I was referring to was born in 1861 and died in 1863.
I was just thinking if you could get Bristol RO to look at the film entry for the 1861 baptism and the James Brown listed as the father was a mason you could pick up the mother's maiden name from his birth cert.
I have found the more common the surname the more vital it is to research the whole tree than just a twig, especially if you can get back to before 1837 - if you just research the one line it's very easy to go wrong!
You are of course correct Merry, and I may well just do that.
Luckily in this instance I am working 'upwards' rather than 'downwards' and so I know that the other people are correct. James Brown and his two wives (the second of whom we know plenty about) are at the very top of my tree, and was among the last people to be added, so it won't result in other people being mistakenly added as a result.
I'm reasonably confident I have a death registry for him, given that his second wife is widowed on the last two or three census records, and he will very likely have died in Bristol. It is a very common name, though, so I reserve the right to be wrong. :D
My relative who has been trying to trace James Brown for some years thinks she has ruled out Elizabeth Marten as a potential first wife:
'Neither do I have a copy of the certificate showing a James Brown marrying an Elizabeth Marten. I did, however, see the Parish Records for St James' parish church, Bristol when I visited the Bristol Records Office back in 2007ish. Her father was shown as William Marten, labourer. Elizabeth was born in 1832 and her profession was "ironer" at the time of her marriage on 17 Feb 1861. A child of James and Elizabeth Brown, Eliza Ellen Jane Brown, was baptised at St James' Parish church on 21 April 1861. Her birth was noted as 29 March 1860. She died in 1878. I found Eliza Ellen Jane Brown with her mother, Elizabeth and elder sibling, Florence, on the 1861 census in Chepstow, Monmouthshire. The enumerator had noted that Elizabeth's husband, James was a chef (professional but was absent on census night. I therefore discounted this family as being "ours". I cannot imagine that a stone mason would suddenly turn into a professional chef apart from anything else.'
Marriages Mar 1861
BROWN James Bristol 6a 16
I have since verified this information myself, and we have also ruled out an Elizabeth Burland - she and a James Brown married Q2 1861 Williton, and have been located on a separate 1871 census at Stogursey.
Marriages Jun 1861
BROWN James Williton 5c 538
A possible lead I had found, Elizabeth Newton, has also been ruled out by the groom's details on the marriage certificate, as James' occupation is baker (he was a stonemason) and his father William Brown is an inn keeper (he was deceased, or never existed).
Marriages Dec 1862
Brown James Bristol 6a 141
So, at this point, we're back to square one: James Brown's whereabouts in 1861 are unknown (census record possibly destroyed), his first wife is unknown and his father is unknown.
I realise we can't be at all sure that James's first wife was called Elizabeth something, but all the same, I keep coming back to these records and wondering if they might be connected to this James (just a feeling!)
John Edwin Brown, Christening 08 Dec 1861 Westbury on Trym, Holy Trinity, Gloucestershire, parents James and Elizabeth
(Births Dec 1861 BROWN John Edwin Clifton 6a 135)
John Edward Brown, Burial 25 Jan 1863 Westbury on Trym, Holy Trinity, Gloucestershire
(Deaths Mar 1863 BROWN John Edward Clifton 6a 107)
....and then James has another John Edward in 1867 (if it's the same James that is!).
In case the birth and death are not the same child (given the variation in middle name) I've tried hard to find John E born late 1861 on the 1871 census to no avail.
So, is it back to the above then? :D
Yes, the second John Edward Brown you reference is my relative's grandfather. He is from James' second marriage, to Emma Cowley.
The earlier birth and death you mention are interesting (assuming they are indeed the same boy) - but can we try to link up a marriage to fit that time and place? I suppose I could order a birth certificate for John Edwin at some point, as if it is the right parents then that should give us the mother's maiden name.
It would be best to try to eliminate another John Edwin first, though. I mean it does look promising, but I am wary of people who have births and deaths with names that don't match!
Do you live near a LDS family history centre? I just wondered if it would be better to view the W-o-T PR film(s)?
Yes, but it doesn't have microfilm access. I'll ask my relative!
I'll ask my relative!
Good idea :D
Another alternative is that John Edwin and John Edward are separate people, but John Edward died as a baby and so only the death was registered. I've seen that before a few times.
Can you find John Edwin anywhere else if he didn't die?
Can you find John Edwin anywhere else if he didn't die?
I'll see if I can, although I've since discovered (not mentioned in your original post) that the John Edward Brown who was buried Jan. 1863 was 1 year old, which means that your theory is now much more plausible. Without his age, it was somewhat more of a case of pinning the tail on the donkey.
I have since forwarded all of this information to my relative, so I'll see what she thinks. I really hope this is a breakthrough. You'll get all the credit, Merry! :D
I'll see if I can, although I've since discovered (not mentioned in your original post) that the John Edward Brown who was buried Jan. 1863 was 1 year old, which means that your theory is now much more plausible. Without his age, it was somewhat more of a case of pinning the tail on the donkey.
Sorry, probably because I knew the age was there I didn't notice I hadn't posted it.
Sorry, probably because I knew the age was there I didn't notice I hadn't posted it.
I won't hold it against you. ;)
Going from 1860, the only BMD events in Gloucestershire involving a John Edwin Brown are:
Births Dec 1861
BROWN John Edwin Clifton 6a 135
Marriages Sep 1907
BROWN John Edwin Gloucester 6a 675
Deaths Dec 1976
BROWN JOHN EDWIN 18MY1914 CIRENCESTER 22 1752
So, given the John Edward burial was of a one year-old, I think you're right, and it probably is John Edwin. And the only John E Brown born Westbury/Bristol I can find in 1871 is James & Emma Cowley's son, and I suppose we can assume (perhaps wrongly!) that if James had a son from a previous marriage, he'd be living with James & Emma in 1871.
The above 1907 marriage is here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5156/41511_636897_1323-00238?pid=4311813&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dGeorgina %2bMay%26gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dDavis%26gsln_x%3d0%26 msgdy%3d1907%26mssng%3dJohn%2bE%26mssns%3dBrown%26 cp%3d0%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dyke%26pcat%3d34%26h%3d4 311813%26db%3dGloucMarriages%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos %3d1%26hovR%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true), and they are together on the 1911 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_15316_0257_03?pid=56061641&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dJohn%2bE dwin%26gsfn_x%3d0%26gsln%3dBrown%26gsln_x%3d0%26ms sng%3dGeorgina%2bMay%26mssns%3dBrown%26cp%3d0%26MS AV%3d1%26uidh%3dyke%26pcat%3d35%26h%3d56061641%26d b%3d1911England%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true) census.
So, it does look likely they were the same person. Of course, it's always possible John Edwin died outside of Gloucestershire, and John Edward was born outside of Gloucestershire - it'd be a hell of a coincidence, though.
Birth certificate time? Mind you, it might be trickier pinning down Elizabeth, as it's a fairly common name and there are several deaths even in Clifton between ~1860 and ~1866.
I suppose we can assume (perhaps wrongly!) that if James had a son from a previous marriage, he'd be living with James & Emma in 1871.
It would be quite unusual to have two sons called John Edw* alive at the same time (thought not impossible)!
It would be quite unusual to have two sons called John Edw* alive at the same time (thought not impossible)!
You're absolutely right, of course. I hadn't even considered this, and yet once you mention it it's so obvious.
As where's probably only a 50:50 chance the first John Edw* Brown is anything to do with your James I did think you could potentially save yourself some money if you applied for the birth cert through the local reg office and state you only want the cert of the father's occupation is mason (the risk being this could leave you wondering if you then don't get the cert!).
Clifton registers are held at Bristol:
The Register Office, The Old Council House, Corn Street, Bristol BS1 1JG
0117 922 2800
[email protected]
Some pre-1940 records were destroyed in World War II and are only available from the General Register Office.
It might be worth phoning them to ask if Clifton 1861 births have survived!
They charge more than the GRO - the Bristol website states £10 plus £1.50 p+p and their printable application form states £10 plus one SAE lol
https://www.bristol.gov.uk/births-deaths-marriages/get-a-copy-of-a-certificate
Another thought - if you got the birth cert regardless you would then hopefully be able to eliminate one of the many James Brown marriages if you felt the father on the birth cert wasn't your James......so it's a bit swings and roundabouts!
Merry, I'll e-mail the Clifton registry office today and see if they can help me re the stone mason bit. Good thinking. Hopefully it could narrow down the search.
I'll mention the 1861 census to them as well.
kiterunner
17-04-16, 11:18
They won't be able to help with the census, James.
They won't be able to help with the census, James.
I meant in terms of clarifying which records in their area were destroyed. Can they not do that?
The register office might/would be able to tell you which BMD registers were destroyed during WW2 in their district(s), but in general info about any other archive issues for the Bristol area would need to be referred to the Bristol Record Office.
Coming back to this, I have a possible lead, albeit one based on no evidence whatsoever at present.
I've found this chap James Floyde in 1861 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/SOMRG9_1601_1606-0035?pid=17892480&backurl=http://search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwnR5009%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DJames%26gsfn_x%3D0 %26msbdy%3D1836%26msbpn__ftp%3DPorlock%26msbpn__ft p_x%3D1%26cpxt%3D1%26cp%3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dy ke%26ssrc%3Dpt_t85149586_p42519420679%26pcat%3DCEN _1860%26h%3D17892480%26db%3Duki1861%26indiv%3D1%26 ml_rpos%3D1&ssrc=pt_t85149586_p42519420679&treeid=85149586&personid=42519420679&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR5009&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true); right age and place of birth. At first glance, I can't seem to find him on other census dates.
Given recent experiences with several people in my research appearing with different names on certain census records, I'm wondering if there's an outside chance that James Floyde could be James Brown, perhaps living with his father and having been given his father's name. (If you recall, James gave his father's name as William Brown but it seems very likely that he was a bastard).
Just a hunch, and very likely an incorrect one, but assuming James' 1861 census record wasn't destroyed then it's reasonable to assume he may have been using a different name at that time.
Any thoughts?
If you recall, James gave his father's name as William Brown
No, I recall nothing! I don't know if I need to read the thread back, but hopefully telling you there's a baptism for James Floyd 20 Dec 1835 son of John and Elizabeth in Porlock on FreeREG might mean I don't have to??
He's with the same parents in 1851 and 1841 in Porlock and has several older siblings.
End of theory, then.
Thanks, Merry. :D
The mmn for John Edwin Brown b 1861 is Boulton, which doesn't seem to help much! I don't had time to see if there are more Brown/Boulton births either too early for the father to be your James Brown or too late for him to still be with his first wife, hence eliminating John Edwin.
There's a Henry Brown marrying an Ann Boulton in Chipping Sodbury district at the start of 1861 who might have moved to Clifton. That's the only couple who married in Glouc/Som and fit for names. Of course Ms Boulton might have been on a second marriage which would mean we wouldn't easily see the marriage!
I would laugh (a bit anyway) if you got the 'second' marriage cert and found the transcript saying James was a widower was incorrect!! :D
How did you find the mmn for J.E. Brown?
From the new GRO indexes.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/#0
I would have said Henry Brown and Ann Boulton were the couple in Pucklechurch in 1861, 1871 and 1881. Annoyingly they don't seem to have registered their older children, but the younger ones are recorded as Brown with mmn Boulton. It would have been good to see exactly when their eldest dau, Mary Jane, was born as she is 9 and then 19 in 1871 and 1881 meaning her birth might clash with the one for JEB meaning Henry and Ann can't be JEB's parents.
Ah, I've just seen on the other thread you mentioned that FS has a bap for JEB showing his parents to be James and Elizabeth, so clearly Henry and Ann are definitely not his parents!
I've found them!! :D (your James B in 1861 etc etc)
What how where??!??!?!
And now I can't access Ancestry. :(
In date order, rather than the order I found stuff...
1841 census for Elizabeth Boulton aged 10, b Westbury, parents Wm and Winifred is here. (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=RAw4065&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1841&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=eliz*&gsfn_x=1&gsln=boulton&gsln_x=1&gskw=westbury&gskw_x=1&MSAV=2&uidh=672&pcat=35&fh=0&h=1995089&recoff=10%2011&ml_rpos=1)
1851 census for Elizabeth Boulton with her mother is here. (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=RAw4076&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=uki1851&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=elizabeth&gsfn_x=1&gsln=boulton&gsln_x=1&msbdy=1830&msbdy_x=1&msbdp=5&gskw=westbury&gskw_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&MSAV=2&uidh=672&pcat=35&fh=0&h=7594738&recoff=7%2019%2020&ml_rpos=1)
Don't know if you have fmp, but Elizabeth's marriage to Benjamin Martin is here. (http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=r_21317840102%2f2) Sept 1851 at St Paul's Bristol.
I think they had a son, Benjamin soon after the marriage but not registered. Then a dau Emily in 1854, b Westbury and then a son Oliver was born in 1858 but he was registered as illegitimate. I don't yet know what happened to Benjamin Martin but it's not obvious to me yet that he died in time for.....
1861 - here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/GLSRG9_1738_1741-0599?pid=18077934&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?db%3Duki1861%26indiv%3Dtry%26h%3D18077934&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true)are Elizabeth's parents with grandchildren Benjamin and Oliver Martin and.....James and Elizabeth Bowen (Brown??) - he is 24 (correct), a mason (correct), born Devonshire (lol).
Emily Martin aged 7 is a visitor in another household in 1871.
I don't have a FMP sub atm and I am (temporarily, I hope!) locked out of Ancestry as of about 10 mins ago :C
What happened to Elizabeth Martin (Brown), and her first husband?
Is this Elizabeth Martin the same as the Elizabeth Martin/Marten I originally had on my tree? (She'll be elsewhere in this thread I imagine) I believe we ruled her out some time ago.
I don't know the answers to any of those questions! I don't see how this could be the same Elizabeth Martin unless you had seen the James Bowen mason entry on the 1861 census or the birth cert for John Edwin Brown (to learn the mmn for JEB). I'd have to read back to find out who your Elizabeth Martin/Marten was.
I haven't found a death for Elizabeth (might be Brown, Boulton or Martin) or any clues for who Ben Martin sr was (father Richard is all I know).
Oh, I do remember this vaguely:
have found a James Brown marrying in 1861 (in St James' Parish, Bristol), an Elizabeth Marten but have ruled this couple out by extensive searches of the censuses.'
it was written on Rootschat or somewhere similar.
I think Kate worked out how they had eliminated her but I'm wondering now if she is the correct person after all? I will have to try and find the apparent "rule out" info!
When I found this Boulton lady had married a Martin I didn't remember that was a name you had already :o
Seems my Ancestry is back up now. I'll have a trawl through all of this and the Horne stuff, and then get back to you.
Thanks again for your help Merry. Let me know if you find anything else. :)
BTW Merry I only mentioned the Martin / Marten link because of this new Martin name you've found, and would like to know whether it's the same couple.
I've definitely never seen that 1861 census before, with James the stonemason from Devonshire. I'd have remembered that.
If you consider James and Elizabeth may have been trying to hide a potential bigamous marriage (for her) then if you read this some questions come up....
'Neither do I have a copy of the certificate showing a James Brown marrying an Elizabeth Marten. I did, however, see the Parish Records for St James' parish church, Bristol when I visited the Bristol Records Office back in 2007ish. Her father was shown as William Marten, labourer. Elizabeth was born in 1832 and her profession was "ironer" at the time of her marriage on 17 Feb 1861. A child of James and Elizabeth Brown, Eliza Ellen Jane Brown, was baptised at St James' Parish church on 21 April 1861. Her birth was noted as 29 March 1860. She died in 1878. I found Eliza Ellen Jane Brown with her mother, Elizabeth and elder sibling, Florence, on the 1861 census in Chepstow, Monmouthshire. The enumerator had noted that Elizabeth's husband, James was a chef (professional but was absent on census night. I therefore discounted this family as being "ours". I cannot imagine that a stone mason would suddenly turn into a professional chef apart from anything else.'
So, the bride said she was a spinster and said her father was Wm Martin, labourer. Eliz's father was Wm Boulton, labourer, but as she perhaps wasn't a widow I could imagine them twisting the truth. The writer doesn't say what James put down for his own occupation at the marriage which would seem pretty important....
The child Eliza Ellen Jane Brown was "with her mother in Chepstow" which makes me think that's a different family and with father James, a chef. Maybe we can find the birth reg and mmn for the child and perhaps eliminate them? I'm thinking the wife of the chef wasn't nee Boulton or nee Martin.
This is the birth reg of the child who your contact believed belonged to the James and Elizabeth who married in Feb 1861:
Q1 1860 Brown Eliza Ellen Jane Chepstow 11a 12
The mmn for that birth is Lewis. James Brown, the chef/cook married Eliza Lewis in 1854 in Bristol. His second child (EEJB) was brought from Chepstow to Bristol for Baptism and just happened to use the same church as where your James Brown married Elizabeth Martin/Boulton leading to the researcher assuming they were the same people. I would like to see the occ for James on the 1861 marriage cert - I bet it doesn't say chef! lol
Unfortunately the marriage record on FMP for Ben Martin and Eliz Boulton is only a transcript so there are no occs recorded. I wonder if Ben was a mariner of some sort? No sign of a Ben Martin in the right place in 1851 but maybe I haven't tried Marten.......
kiterunner
02-01-17, 15:01
Or Martyn?
Yes, good point Kate.
Before I look for those M names, on the other thread James, you listed some possible deaths for Elizabeth Brown in Clifton and I added the ages at death suggesting none of them were right! However, I don't know why you didn't include this one?
BROWN, ELIZABETH 32 GRO Reference 1862 D Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 106
I think this might be the right one!
I *think* that death was originally ruled out, but I'd have to find out where / why.
However, it is of course possible it is indeed her, now that we've found who we think to be the first wife.
I'm getting nowhere with Benjamin Martin, father Richard (nothing else known as yet)
So, Elizabeth Boulton b abt 1831 Westbury
Married Benjamin Martin in 1851 (after the census) in Bristol
1852 son Benjamin William bap at Westbury (Ancestry)
1854 dau Emily bap same (and registered mmn Boulton)
1858 son Oliver reg with no mmn (so illegitimate?)
1861 Feb Eliz marries James Brown using her married name but probably also saying spinster?
1861 Q4 son John Edwin born
1862 Elizabeth and son John E both die.
1866 James remarries
So, really the remaining biggest problem is who is Ben and what happened to him?
re Elizabeth Marten, here's an extract from an e-mail from the same person Merry quoted a few posts back:
'1861 Census taken on night of 7 April: there is no sign of James in Marlborough Street, Bristol although this was the address given on a marriage certificate for 17 February 1861of a James Brown to an Elizabeth Marten.* Despite extensive search of original 1861 census records no trace of James or Elizabeth Martin in St James nor St Augustine's parishes nor WoT.* Birth of an Eliza Ellen Brown also recorded in St James Parish.* Parents gave 30 Marlborough Street as their address at the time of Eliza's baptism ie 21 April 1861. * Having extensively searched the 1861 census I found an Eliza Brown, claiming to be the wife of James Brown, *a professional cook (who was absent from home on census night) living in Chepstow with children Florence aged 5 and Eliza E J aged 1.* Having checked the 1871 census I have found this family residing in Bristol at 1 Bush Street in the parish of *St James and St Pauls .* Have now ruled this James Brown and Elizabeth Marten out of my ancestry.'
re Elizabeth Marten, here's an extract from an e-mail from the same person Merry quoted a few posts back:
'1861 Census taken on night of 7 April: there is no sign of James in Marlborough Street, Bristol although this was the address given on a marriage certificate for 17 February 1861of a James Brown to an Elizabeth Marten.* Despite extensive search of original 1861 census records no trace of James or Elizabeth Martin in St James nor St Augustine's parishes nor WoT.* Birth of an Eliza Ellen Brown also recorded in St James Parish.* Parents gave 30 Marlborough Street as their address at the time of Eliza's baptism ie 21 April 1861. * Having extensively searched the 1861 census I found an Eliza Brown, claiming to be the wife of James Brown, *a professional cook (who was absent from home on census night) living in Chepstow with children Florence aged 5 and Eliza E J aged 1.* Having checked the 1871 census I have found this family residing in Bristol at 1 Bush Street in the parish of *St James and St Pauls .* Have now ruled this James Brown and Elizabeth Marten out of my ancestry.'
They made too many assumptions and didn't get lucky!
I *think* that death was originally ruled out, but I'd have to find out where / why.
However, it is of course possible it is indeed her, now that we've found who we think to be the first wife.
Hmmm... this is you "ruling it out" then?? :rolleyes:
The Q4 1862 Clifton Somerset (i.e. Westbury) death entry for Elizabeth Brown will be my next port of call, as hopefully that will confirm Elizabeth Marten as being James' first wife - or not, of course.
The age seems to fit, though, and James lived in Westbury in subsequent census records.
Maybe you are remembering that in the following post I said the death cert might tell you if the lady was the wife of your James (ie his occ might well get a mention on the cert) but that you still wouldn't know if she was previously surname Martin or not.
Don't roll your eyes at me girl. :p
I see now re the Marlborough Street connection between the 1861 marriage and the later baptism is what threw your contact off. I still can't understand how they managed to make notes from the Feb 1861 marriage without noting the groom's occupation? Even f it wasn't mason for some reason, it presumably wasn't chef or cook either??
Time to flash your cash now James - it won't be good for my blood pressure if you don't buy some certs!
William Benjamin Martin was registered with mmn Bolton on the GRO search. He's quite easy to trace after 1861.
Emily Martin I think might be here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/GLSRG9_1733_1738-0902?pid=18061471&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwnR5898%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DEmily%26gsfn_x%3D0 %26gsln%3DMartin%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1854%26msb pn__ftp%3DWestbury%2520on%2520Trym,%2520Gloucester shire,%2520England%26msbpn%3D1665185%26msbpn_PInfo %3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5265%257C1665185%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26 cp%3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D35%26h%3D 18061471%26dbid%3D8767%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D2&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR5898&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true#?imageId=GLSRG9_1733_1738-0902) in 1861 as a visitor, although she's not with immediate family so I don't know why. The man whose family she is staying with (go back a page) is a mason, however, so he may be a friend of James' perhaps. There's also an Emily Martin here (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/GLSRG10_2618_2622-0212?pid=1531849&backurl=//search.ancestry.co.uk//cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DwnR5898%26_phstart%3DsuccessSourc e%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26gss%3Dangs-c%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26gsfn%3DEmily%26gsfn_x%3D0 %26gsln%3DMartin%26gsln_x%3D0%26msbdy%3D1854%26msb pn__ftp%3DWestbury%2520on%2520Trym,%2520Gloucester shire,%2520England%26msbpn%3D1665185%26msbpn_PInfo %3D8-%257C0%257C0%257C3257%257C3251%257C0%257C0%257C0%2 57C5265%257C1665185%257C0%257C0%257C%26cpxt%3D1%26 cp%3D11%26MSAV%3D1%26uidh%3Dyke%26pcat%3D35%26h%3D 1531849%26dbid%3D7619%26indiv%3D1%26ml_rpos%3D6&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=wnR5898&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true) in 1871, who could perhaps be her... not sure yet, though.
Oliver died not long after the 1861 census, aged 2. I wonder who his parents were.
I'll see what else I can dig up.
kiterunner
02-01-17, 17:40
Not sure whether this person has been ruled out?
D'oh, looking at the rest of the household, it has to be the couple who married in Sep 1851:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/GLSHO107_1955_1955-0235/7594741?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Village, Westbury on Trym
W Boulton Hd Mar 65 (female) Lodging Ho Keeper ???house Glo
Elizabeth Do Daur U 20 Dressmaker Westbury Glo
Tho Do Son " 18 Labourer Do
Henry Wright Lodger U 24 Hatter London
B Martin Do " 26 Do London
W Brooks Do " 26 Labourer Fitton Glo
Does this match the family with Benjamin jr and Oliver as grandchildren in 1861?
kiterunner
02-01-17, 17:41
Oh, o.k., you had already posted that 1851 census entry in post #62, Merry, so you already knew who Benjamin Martin was. I thought you were trying to identify him. Sorry, I will drop back out!
lol Kate, I posted a link to that further up, but I was concentrating so hard on W being Winfred (like the 1841) and Elizabeth being the right person that I didn't look below the first lodger so didn't see B Martin. At that point I didn't know I was going to need him as all I had done at that point was to establish an Elizabeth Boulton who was the right age and exactly in the right place (most women of that name lived in completely different parts of the country). After that I looked to see who she might have married and never went back to the census :o
So, London??.....
kiterunner
02-01-17, 18:06
Oh, I see. Thought I was misunderstanding because I hadn't re-read through the whole thread.
This could be his baptism then, if he dropped the middle name:
Benjamin Eldridge Martin christened 13 Mar 1825 St Saviour, Southwark, parents Richard and Mary (from FamilySearch).
kiterunner
02-01-17, 18:09
1841 census but they are lightermen:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/SRYHO107_1088_1088-0228/10541189?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Richard is a waterman on the baptism record too.
kiterunner
02-01-17, 18:19
Well, Richard Martin, waterman and lighterman, doesn't have Benjamin with him in 1851 so I suppose he could have become a hatter:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/SRYHO107_1558_1558-0299/631566?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
Maybe he got seasick? Hopefully the occs will tie up with the marriage cert.
There is another bap with the middle name Eldridge, Allen Eldridge Martin bap the same day as Benjamin in 1825, but Allen was born in 1820. I'm not entirely sure which other baps belong to children of the same couple (ie children of Richard, waterman, and Mary), but when I was looking at other Martins who were hatters I came across a Richard Martin b abt 1825 Southwark who was a hatter in 1861. He has a son called Allen aged 7 so would appear to be potentially part of the same family.
EDIT I've just looked at the marriage for this Richard and he says his father was Richard a waterman and says hatter for himself - 1853 to Sarah Chaplin. So it would seem he is Benjamin's brother. So hatter seems to have been a family alternative occupation. Richard died young - maybe he had mercury poisoning?
So, what happened to Benjamin?
kiterunner
02-01-17, 19:16
I've been looking, but nothing yet.
MARTIN, BENJAMIN 35 GRO Reference: 1855 S Quarter in LISKEARD Volume 05C Page 39
MARTIN,BENJAMIN WILLIAM 40 GRO Reference: 1858 M Quarter in SOUTH STONEHAM Volume 02C Page 26
MARTIN, BENJAMIN 36 GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in NORTH AYLESFORD Volume 02A Page 223
MARTIN, BENJAMIN 45 GRO Reference: 1862 J Quarter in KINGSTON, SURREY Volume 02A Page 125
The above are all the deaths between 1853 and 1865 where the age at death was within ten years of correct for Benjamin Martin. There were no matches for Martyn or Marten except for a couple of young children. Deaths after 1865 are easier to find so I haven't bothered with those here.
Good finds, Merry!
I've e-mailed my relative with the updates from this thread, including a copy of the 1861 census record you found. Absolutely amazing work, thank you so much. :)
(You too, Kate!)
Of those four the North Aylesford one was the best fit for age, but I think he is the Ben Martin living at Northfleet in 1851 b 1825 Cornwall.
Oooh, no, that one is still in Kent in 1861.....I think!
EDIT - Now I'm confused, because when I went to check the 1861 again I couldn't find the entry I'd seen before .... *sigh*
Maybe yours emigrated to get away??!
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