View Full Version : John Litherland father and son.
Novabird41
08-12-15, 18:52
I have recently come across a census showing that my Great Great Grandfather was a patient in the UK Lunacy Patients Admission Register 1846-1912 and that he died there on 14 August 1872 aged 60. He was a resident of Leeds. Is there any way I can find out more about this? I am also researching the death of his son John Osborn Litherland b 1852-1917 probably in Leeds, John O had fought with the Light Infantry 1876 in the 2nd Afghan war I believe he returned to England in 1881/2.
kiterunner
08-12-15, 19:23
Hello and welcome to the forum, Novabird41. It looks as though the asylum where John Litherland sr was a patient was the North Riding Asylum, later called Clifton Hospital, and the records are held at the Borthwick Institute for Archives, link to their site below:
https://www.york.ac.uk/borthwick/holdings/what-we-hold/health/
He doesn't seem to have been a patient there on the 1871 census but it says "N York" on the admission register (he was admitted 20 Jul 1872) and his death registration is York district, Bootham sub-district which included Clifton.
He was admitted as a pauper rather than as a private patient.
Some of those records should be on Ancestry. On one of my family trees, I have both a mother and one of her daughters as being patients at Woking Asylum. Both are listed on census records there, and both have death records there, with the images available to view on Ancestry.
kiterunner
08-12-15, 22:29
If I'm looking at the right John jr (mother's name Ruth, and with a brother Alfred), he is age 11 on the 1861 census, born Wolverhampton Staffordshire, and age 1 on the 1851 census, so he was born about 1849-1850, not 1852. There is a John Litherland birth registered Jan-Mar 1850 in Wolverhampton which is probably him. He has a brother Osborn age 3 on the 1851 census. There is a John Litherland death registered Jan-Mar 1917 in Leeds, age 67.
Findmypast website has an entry in their "1871 British Worldwide Army Index" for John Litherland, service number 1893, a Private in the 51st (2nd York, West Riding, The King's Own Light Infantry) Regiment of Foot, stationed at Curragh Camp, Ireland, but I can't find his actual service record on there at the moment, only what seems to be another John Litherland from Wolverhampton.
I can't find anything which says that John jr had a middle name though there are some John Osborn Litherlands in later generations.
If you want to know about his death then it looks as though your best bet will be to order a copy of his death certificate.
kiterunner
08-12-15, 22:32
Some of those records should be on Ancestry. On one of my family trees, I have both a mother and one of her daughters as being patients at Woking Asylum. Both are listed on census records there, and both have death records there, with the images available to view on Ancestry.
Ancestry do have a Surrey Mental Hospital Records database, hence Woking, (I mean in addition to the Lunacy Patients Admission Register which is national) but it won't cover Yorkshire.
An image of the marriage cert for John Litherland senr and Ruth is available on ancestry. If you don't have it already I can post up the details.
There is a John Litherland birth registered Jan-Mar 1850 in Wolverhampton which is probably him.
This John wasn't baptised until 1862 (20 April 1862 St John the Evangelist, Leeds, no middle name) but his date of birth was given at the baptism as 19 Feb 1850, so that fits with the Q1 1850 registration. A brother, Frank was baptised the same day (dob 3 Dec 1853).
John O had fought with the Light Infantry 1876 in the 2nd Afghan war I believe he returned to England in 1881/2.
There's an army record on fmp for this John and it seems he rejoined the army and served 1887-1899.
There's an army record on fmp for this John and it seems he rejoined the army and served 1887-1899.
Of his previous service it says he served 14 years 233 days in the 2nd Dorset regiment.
kiterunner
09-12-15, 11:13
Oh, I looked at that but thought it must be a different person because it said Dorset Regiment instead of Light Infantry. Mind you, it was late at night. Makes sense if it is the same John.
It said place of birth Wolverhampton and age 36 years 7 months on 13 Jan 1887 which is pretty close! (should be 36 years 11 months, so they may have misheard what he said!)
There's also this (Light infantry) but I don't know how we could know it's the same man?
First name(s) John
Last name Litherland
Service number 1893
Rank Private
Unit or Regiment 51st (2nd York, West Riding, The King's Own Light Infantry) Regiment of Foot
HQ location Curragh Camp, Ireland
Year 1871
Country Great Britain
National Archives reference WO 12/6234
Period 01/04/1871-30/06/1871
Record set 1871 Worldwide British Army Index - British Army Other Ranks & locations
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & service records
Collections from Great Britain
kiterunner
09-12-15, 11:21
Yes, that's the record I posted up last night, Merry. I thought that must be him because it said Light Infantry.
I did a search on his army number but that didn't bring up anything new.
Mary from Italy
09-12-15, 15:57
If I'm looking at the right John jr (mother's name Ruth, and with a brother Alfred), he is age 11 on the 1861 census, born Wolverhampton Staffordshire, and age 1 on the 1851 census, so he was born about 1849-1850, not 1852. There is a John Litherland birth registered Jan-Mar 1850 in Wolverhampton which is probably him. He has a brother Osborn age 3 on the 1851 census.
John and Ruth Litherland had 3 children baptised in the Wolverhampton area (Walter and Rebecca in 1845 and Alfred in 1852); it seems odd that John and Osborne would have been missed out.
http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/assets/userfiles/index.php?file=011641.pdf
kiterunner
09-12-15, 16:10
See Merry's post #8 for John's baptism, Mary.
Novabird41
10-12-15, 10:45
Thank you very much for your quick response. It looks as though I need to amend some records. John snr. was my great gt. grandfather his wife was called Ruth nee Osborn. Their son Alfred was my great Grandfather I had his Dob as 1852, and his brother John O 1851. I had seen a 1911census where John Jnr was aged 62 a platelayer the census appeared to be from an institution but there was no name attached to the sheet. I will amend his Dob to 1849. I had no idea he had signed up again. John snr' asylum record made me wonder if he was mentally ill, there was no mention of this. Although his brother in law had been a patient in Wakefield asylum, but he was suffering from cancer. Osborn was his son he died aged 7 years old. Thank you for the updates, this is most interesting to me.
I will amend his Dob to 1849
John jr's baptism record says he was born on 19 Feb 1850 (see earlier post).
The 1911 census record for John jr is Leeds Union Infirmary, Beckett Street, Leeds (now St James' University Hospital, Leeds).
Asylums and workhouses often got used for inmates who these days would be in an ordinary hospital. John sr was only in the North Riding Asylum for a short time, so your best bet for finding out why he was there may come from his death cert.
Novabird41
10-12-15, 19:17
John and Ruth Litherland had 3 children baptised in the Wolverhampton area (Walter and Rebecca in 1845 and Alfred in 1852); it seems odd that John and Osborne would have been missed out.
http://www.wolverhamptonhistory.org.uk/assets/userfiles/index.php?file=011641.pdf
I don't have a record of Rebecca, that is strange. After Walter I have Osborn b1847 d1854. John O 1850.d1917. Alfred b 1852 d 1925 Frank b1853? He was born in Wolverhampton he was destitute at one point in the Workhouse in Spitalfields married with four children but later I lost track of him, his wife married again and his children adopted their stepfather,'s name. I only found this out recently when someone sent me the details of their time in the Workhouse. The last one was Sarah b1854.
Novabird41
10-12-15, 20:45
[QUOTE=Merry;311383]There's also this (Light infantry) but I don't know how we could know it's the same man?
It could be the same man but the service number differs. My Gt Grandfather Alfred wrote in his journal in 1880 that His brother John Private 2098 enlisted into the 51st Light Infantry about 1868/9 and volunteered to the 54th Light Infantry as they were going out to the East Indies 1871. He embarked on the Euphrates at Queenstown (is this in Ireland?) in 1871. The correspondence address he used was C Company 54th Regiment Meerut Bengal. I understand he came home from the 2nd Afghan war in 1881/2 but unaware that he re enlisted. Which could explain why I lost track of him until the 1911 census. That is the trouble with this family there are so many Johns to confuse us. Thank you for your help, it is much appreciated.
First name(s) John
Last name Litherland
Service number 1893
Rank Private
Unit or Regiment 51st (2nd York, West Riding, The King's Own Light Infantry) Regiment of Foot
Yes. Queenstown is in Ireland. From Wiki: 'Cobh, known from 1850 until the late 1920s as Queenstown, is a tourist seaport town on the south coast of County Cork, Ireland. Cobh is on the south side of Great Island in Cork Harbour.'
The 54th Regiment of Foot became the 2nd Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment in 1881.
Novabird41
11-12-15, 14:53
Excellent, thank you for that Shona, I looked at some war records some time ago and remember discounting Regiments that were not in the Yorkshire Staffordshire areas. There have been several John Litherlands served in different wars, it's hard to tell which one to follow.
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