View Full Version : Anyone who is bored...
I am revisiting my Batmans.
I have a fair bit of info, sent from various family members I've never met, found on family trees online etc. Very little has been proven in my opinion, but could well be correct.
I wonder if anyone knows how to check this. I've tried the usual places, Ancestry, FreeReg, Family Search, etc....and I know I checked FMP when I had a sub. Either I failed to look correctly or they aren't there (mostly).
Here's what I have
William Batman b. Copmanthorpe, Yorkshire c 1765 marries
Mary Mobbs, b. 3rd Nov 1766, Charlbury, Oxford. I know Mary Mobbs is correct, although I'm assuming she is "my" Mary.
William and Mary married 1795 Charlbury, Oxford
They have two children, Maria born 1793, London and Robert born 1796, London. They have several more children all documented, born in Australia after William is transported. The whole family comes out.
William's parents are supposed to be Thomas Batman b 1736 Yorkshire and Mary Jarum b. 1738 Yorkshire
Thomas' father is supposed to be Thomas.
Mary Jarum's parents are suppose to be Francis Jarum and Jane Cobb.
So...I have a fair bit of info. How much is correct is another story.
If anyone wants to play, please feel free.....or even if anyone has a good online site for PRs of that era.
Thanks.
kiterunner
24-11-15, 22:24
Oxfordshire FHS have something of a stranglehold over the Oxfordshire PR's, Libby, so I'm guessing that someone may have found the Oxfordshire information for you on a CD. They are supposed to be going online some time but I think we heard that the date had been put back recently.
kiterunner
24-11-15, 22:25
Presumably you have seen this, Libby:
http://www.portphillippioneersgroup.org.au/pppg5u.htm
kiterunner
24-11-15, 22:45
After looking at what some of the public trees on ancestry have and don't have, I think the best place to start checking it would probably be if you can get the full details of that marriage at Charlbury, Libby.
Yes thanks Kite.....I've seen that. Not the marriage...posted this prior to seeing your last post.
Everyone seems to have the same info but nobody adds the source.....lol
William is my 4x great grandfather through Robert. Two younger brother, John and Henry, born here in Australia are famous for their explorations and founding of Melbourne, so a lot is written about them.
After looking at what some of the public trees on ancestry have and don't have, I think the best place to start checking it would probably be if you can get the full details of that marriage at Charlbury, Libby.
I presume that would mean finding someone with the CDs of the PRs?
I have lots of Charlbury info, but sadly it's all Quaker records, not C of E.
I guess this, below, would be the bap for William if he did come from Copmanthorpe, but how do the other researchers know that? (do you have his Australian death record? Is there ay info at his trial or other records surrounding his transportation?)
Name: William Battman
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 14 Feb 1768
Baptism Place: Copmanthorpe,York,England
Father: William Battman
FHL Film Number: 991197
EDIT - I could have sworn the father on this bap said Thomas when I first posted it lol - I'm not deleting it though, just in case it becomes relevant later!!
At least one ancestry tree has (amongst other siblings) a brother for William called Thomas Batman b 1767. This Thomas was apparently born in Dorset and bounced back and forth between Dorset and Yorkshire during his lifetime as if it was just up the road. The same tree has your William born in London but bap in Hook, Yorkshire in 1765 - that seems fairly unlikely, but not impossible. So, you apparently have two brothers both running up and down the country!
I'm not saying the above is definitely wrong, but you would need a lot more evidence for the places these people were born/lived. Maybe some researchers wouldn't see the distances involved as prohibitive if they are living in a much bigger country than the UK and perhaps were more interested in picking events that fitted perfectly for date?
Hence why I'd like to sort it, Merry.
That William you found I do believe is a 'cornfactor'. There are a few newspaper articles calling him William Batman (the younger). He's a different guy.
Copmanthorpe and Hook are 18 miles apart and Hook is where the Batman/Jarum marriage took place in 1764. It seems likely these are the baps for the children of that marriage (father Thomas, mother not named):
William Batman 9 Apr 1765 Hook, Yorkshire, England
Thomas Batman 19 Apr 1767 Hook, Yorkshire, England
Jane Batman 16 Apr 1769 Hook, Yorkshire, England
John Batman 13 Mar 1771 Hook, Yorkshire, England
Mary Batman 4 May 1773 Hook, Yorkshire, England
but are they the right family for your man married in Charlbury?
(re the brother Thomas 1767 - it did occur to me the two places mentioned on his Ancestry tree entry - Hook and Drax - are place names in Yorkshire and in Dorset, so maybe that's why they have him running up and down the motorway between the two?)
kiterunner
25-11-15, 06:47
I presume that would mean finding someone with the CDs of the PRs?
That depends on whether the CD's have full transcriptions or not, with names of witnesses, etc. I can't figure it out from Oxfordshire FHS's website. But I suppose the CD would at least give the exact date of the marriage and then you could order a copy of the PR entry from Oxfordshire History Centre if the CD doesn't have all the info.
Wonder if the FHC have films that they haven't transcribed to order to their local centres
They have two children, Maria born 1793, London and Robert born 1796, London.
Most of the trees I've looked at show Maria as born 29 Jun 1793 in Yorkshire and with the surname Batman even though the parents were apparently not married at this date.
There's this bap in London, which may or may not be connected:
Maria Batman Christening 24 Jul 1794 St Botolph, Bishopsgate, London William, Mary
The baptism that most seem to have included for Robert (1796) is this one:
Robert Bateman Christening 5 Jun 1796 St Luke, Finsbury, Middlesex William, Maria Anne
Note the mother is Maria Anne rather than Mary.
There's this info:
http://www.portphillippioneersgroup.org.au/pppg5u.htm
Re that last link....Isaac Mobbs (Mary's supposed father) is "of Astrop, Northhants" at his marriage (and on the marriage licence). Astrop is a hamlet in Kings-Sutton and Newbottle parishes in Northamptonshire. This is 15 miles from Charlbury.
kiterunner
25-11-15, 08:50
Libby, did Maria and Robert emigrate to Australia, do you know?
These are the children attributed to the above Isaac Mobbs and Mary, nee Ireland.
Isaac Mobbs bap 19 Apr 1769 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Hanah Mobbs bap 19 Jan 1772 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Mary Mobbss bap 9 Nov 1766 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Robt Mobbs bap 2 Jul 1776 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
George Mobbs bap 21 Apr 1779 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
James Mobbs 23 Sep 1781 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Sarah Mobbs 20 Jun 1784 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
John Mobbs 19 Sep 1774 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
tenterfieldjulie
25-11-15, 08:53
Kite. In post 1 Libby said that "the whole family came out" so by that I think she would mean and Maria and Robert emigrated.
kiterunner
25-11-15, 08:54
There's this info:
http://www.portphillippioneersgroup.org.au/pppg5u.htm
I already posted a link to that, Merry.
Sorry Kate.
There's an article in the Kentish Weekly Post or Canterbury Journal 08 January 1796, about the theft that led to the transportation.
It's too long for my two fingers to type out, but re relationships and addresses it says:
William Bateman a shoemaker and grinder of No 2 Long Alley Moorfields
William Mobbs, brother-in-law to Bateman
Mobbs said he lived near Twickenham and was the brother of Bateman's wife.
Note there's no William Mobbs in the list of Charlbury Baptisms.
Do we know how old William Mobbs was reputed to be at any time?
kiterunner
25-11-15, 09:03
Libby, did Maria and Robert emigrate to Australia, do you know?
NSW General Muster 1825 for the Bat(e)mans:
Bateman Ann Ganges 1797 Died Sydney
Bateman Robert Ganges 1797 Housekeeper Parramatta
Bateman Eleanor Ganges 1797 Wife of R Bateman do
Bateman William 1 Ganges 1797 Son of Do Do
...
Bateman Mary 4 Mary 1822 Daughtr Robt Bateman Parramatta
...
Bateman William Ganges 1797 7 yr sentence, Landholder Parramatta
Bateman Mary Do 1797 Wife of Wm Bateman Do
Bateman William 21 Ganges 1797 Son of R Bateman Parramatta
Maria Batman married William White 14 Dec 1812 at St John, Parramatta, and one of the witnesses is William Batman. Then on the NSW General Muster 1825 she is listed as Maria White, wife of Wm White, Parramatta, Ganges, 1797, so I guess that answers my question about Maria and Robert.
I guess these are likely to be the children of William Mobbs:
William Mobbs Baptism May 1791 St Mary the Virgin, Twickenham, Kent William,Ann ?
Isaac Mobbs Baptism 19 Aug 1792 St Mary the Virgin, Twickenham, Kent William,Ann ?
Anne Mobbs Baptism 20 Apr 1794 St Mary the Virgin, Twickenham, Kent William,Anne ?
George Mobbs Baptism 27 Dec 1795 St Mary the Virgin, Twickenham, Kent William, Anne
Do we know if they also went to Australia?
EDIT: Twickenham is in Middlesex, not Kent.
kiterunner
25-11-15, 09:05
Kite. In post 1 Libby said that "the whole family came out" so by that I think she would mean and Maria and Robert emigrated.
Yes, Julie, I saw that, but I just wanted confirmation that the William and Mary who went to Australia definitely had children named Maria and Robert born in England. The musters seem to confirm that.
These are the children attributed to Isaac Mobbs and Mary, nee Ireland.
Isaac Mobbs bap 19 Apr 1769 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Hanah Mobbs bap 19 Jan 1772 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Mary Mobbss bap 9 Nov 1766 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Robt Mobbs bap 2 Jul 1776 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
George Mobbs bap 21 Apr 1779 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
James Mobbs 23 Sep 1781 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Sarah Mobbs 20 Jun 1784 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
John Mobbs 19 Sep 1774 Charlbury,Oxford,England Isaac, Mary
Some trees have Mary b 3 Nov 1766 at Kenilworth, Warwickshire which is 33 miles from Charlbury.
kiterunner
25-11-15, 09:22
Here are some names from the 1825 NSW General Muster:
Mobbs Isaac, Earl Cornwallis 1800, Landholder, Parramatta
...
Mobbs Ann, Coromandel 1800 Wife of Wm Mobbs Parramatta
Mobbs William Do 1801 Landholder Parramatta
Mobbs Ann Wife of Isaac Mobbs Do
...
Mobbs George 3 1/2, son of Isaac Mobbs
kiterunner
25-11-15, 09:34
On the 1806 NSW general muster, is W Mobb, Coromandel, sawyer.
kiterunner
25-11-15, 09:40
This could be William Mobbs' marriage:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_198904-00052/4106865?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwil*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dmob*%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_ x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msgdy%3d1787%26m sgdy_x%3d1%26msgdp%3d5%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26mssng0 %3dann*%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1 %26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucke t%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
William Mobbs and Ann Grover, both OTP, by banns, 29 Nov 1790 at St Lawrence, New Brentford, London, witnesses John Rapkin and Thos Wilson (serial witness).
Edit - hundreds of public trees on ancestry have this as the marriage of William Mobbs, son of Isaac Mobbs and Mary Ireland. I wish there was an easy way of finding out whether any of those hundreds of trees has a baptism date for him!
I agree the marriage looks right, and if there is one at Charlbury for Isaac and Mary it would make sense that if they had a son William he might have been born in Northants perhaps? I still don't like all this darting around the country though!
According to the criminal registers William Mobbs was born about 1765. There's a baptism at St George, Hanover Square (fmp):
9 Feb 1764 William son of Isaac and Mary Mobbs born 24 (Jan?)
Oh boy....you have been busy.
Sorry the heat got to me and Lawrie took me out to dinner where there was aircon.
William Mobbs was aged 25 at his trial on 17th Feb 1796, Old Bailey. William Batman was 30. William Mobbs' wife was Ann Grover. She came out here with their thee children in 1801.
William Mobbs was aged 25 at his trial on 17th Feb 1796
Yes, but 31 in the criminal register! SO, possibly either age may be wrong!! lol
DUH!!!!!!!!!!
According to a book I have...... Maria Batman was born 29th June 1793 and baptised at St Boltolphs, Bishopsgate London 24th July 1794. William and Mary were living at Long Alley, Moorfields. William was a cutler who ran a shop with a dwelling above. No record of their marriage has been found.
DUH!!!!!!!!!!
According to a book I have...... Maria Batman was born 29th June 1793 and baptised at St Boltolphs, Bishopsgate London 24th July 1794. William and Mary were living at Long Alley, Moorfields. William was a cutler who ran a shop with a dwelling above. No record of their marriage has been found.
So that's the bap I posted in #13. There's no info about the home address or occ for William at the baptism. I read the date of birth as 23 June which I would assume meant 1794.
Cutler and grinder sounds a lot more plausible than shoemaker and grinder that was in the paper!
kiterunner
25-11-15, 13:02
According to the criminal registers William Mobbs was born about 1765. There's a baptism at St George, Hanover Square (fmp):
9 Feb 1764 William son of Isaac and Mary Mobbs born 24 (Jan?)
Oh, well done, Merry. That fits very well, doesn't it?
It does if he was 31 and not 25 as the Old Bailey have him recorded!!
31 is possibly more likely given he's been married six years or so.
There is no trace of a Batman/Mobbs marriage in Charlbury in 1795. The closest I can find is William Bateman to Mary Smith on 12 Apr 1790 in Charlbury. This would actually be a better fit if their first child was born in 1793.
There are no marriages between a Mr Smith and Mary Mobbs.
There are no Mobbs marriages in Charlbury at all.
No marriages anywhere for Isaac Mobbs
I'm not sure that this is of any help!
Thank you Crawfie. I have no idea who came up with Charlbury to begin with. It just seems to be on a few trees. As I said at the start, I've just shown what I have as a mish mash of info and finding some correct, but a lot not so.
I'm wondering if William and Mary married in London, although I can't find any mention.
As an aside, I've been told that William, as a cutler, would have had his own mark as that was required by law (not that he seemed to care about the law...lol)
Does anyone know where I might it, if indeed he did have a mark.
kiterunner
26-11-15, 12:18
As an aside, I've been told that William, as a cutler, would have had his own mark as that was required by law (not that he seemed to care about the law...lol)
Does anyone know where I might it, if indeed he did have a mark.
I think that would only be if he was a master cutler. Also, nearly everything that comes up on Google is about Sheffield, so possibly only if he was working in Sheffield?
Now we know that the marriage didn't take place in Charlbury, I've been having another look for it anywhere but with no luck. It looks likely to me that everyone has the right family for Mary Mobbs but the wrong one for William Bat(e)man.
From what I can deduce, Batman seems to be fairly confined to the Hook, Copmanthorpe area. It also seems to often change to Bateman once they leave that area......may the Yorkshire accent?
If William Batman was not a master cutler, would he be working in his own business? I got the impression he did have.....once again, can't remember why. It could have come up in the court case. I'll have to revisit that.
There's a sprinkling of Batmans in Northamptonshire (where Isaac Mobbs said he was from when he married Mary Ireland)
kiterunner
26-11-15, 22:31
According to your article, Libby, "William was a cutler. He lived with his wife, Mary Mobbs, at Long Alley, Moorfields in London, above his shop. As a member of The Cutlers Society of London he would have had his own stamp."
http://www.ftfmagazine.lewcock.net/index.php/volume-one-new/february-2008/366-i-found-a-convict
kiterunner
26-11-15, 22:37
From what I can deduce, Batman seems to be fairly confined to the Hook, Copmanthorpe area. It also seems to often change to Bateman once they leave that area......may the Yorkshire accent?
FamilySearch has these William Batman baptisms around the right time:
21 Dec 1765 Burton-upon-Trent, Staffordshire, parents William and Ann
7 Jun 1767 South Cerney, Gloucestershire, parents William and Mary
2 Apr 1769 Wolston, Warwickshire, parents John and Sarah
But if his eldest son was named Robert and Mary's father was Isaac, it seems quite likely that William's father might be a Robert, so this Bateman baptism might be worth looking into as well:
William Bateman christened 10 Jun 1764 Manchester Cathedral, father Robert Bateman.
Mary from Italy
27-11-15, 00:03
I have some Northants discs, and I can't find a marriage there for William Bat(e)man and Mary Mobb(e)s. There are lots of people in that county with both surnames, though.
Can't see a baptism there for Isaac Mobb(e)s either.
The discs don't include the whole of Northants; I think the missing parishes are mostly in the Peterborough area.
Something I ran across suggested Balman as a variation. Would be a likely transcription error.
vBulletin® v3.8.7 PL3, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.