Amelia Passmore

[James18]

Hi all,

Time for some more help, please!

I'm trying to find birth and death records for Amelia Passmore who married - I think! - Herbert Edward Hale in 1940.

I've found Herbert's birth (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Herbert+E&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Hale&gsln_x=1&msbdy=1916&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&h=44761004&recoff=3+4+5&db=ONSBirth84&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1), marriage (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=ONSmarriage1984&h=56869165) and death (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=Herbert+Edward&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Hale&gsln_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=34&h=40469674&db=ONSDeath93&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1) records, and so I do have a marriage (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=ONSmarriage1984&h=56957804) record for Amelia, as well as a possible (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=ONSDeath93&h=38442515) death, but no birth.

There are a couple of other references to Amelia Passmore on Ancestry, but they tend to be for women much older than Herbert. I also found a baptism (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=try&db=LMAbirths&h=28462) record for an illegitimate child named Amelia Passmore I thought that perhaps he married an older woman, and I can't find any Hale / Passmore children (assuming that was indeed her maiden name) so I'm at a loss here.

Also, I couldn't find any marriages between anyone called Amelia and a partner with the surname Passmore within this timeframe.

Have I overlooked something really obvious? Can anyone find any good candidates? Herbert was born and died in Chertsey, and so it is likely Amelia would have as well.

[kiterunner]

James, when you say you have a marriage record for her, do you just mean you have found the marriage index entry that you linked to, or do you actually have her marriage record, which should give her age, previous marital status, father's name and occupation?

[James18]

Just the indexing linked to above, along with Herbert's. Sorry, I didn't mean to mislead you there. I don't have any certificates for her.

[JBee]

I think you really need to get the marriage certificate. I got led astray when I found the only entry for that surname in a census for the town and followed the wrong line. Turned out he'd died and his widow had been mis-spelt/transcribed. I only found out when I'd done a lot of research and I got a wedding certificate which proved I'd gone wrong.

[kiterunner]

And do you know for sure that she is no longer living, James? If it's possible that she is still alive then I need to remove her name from this thread.

[James18]

No, I do not know for sure she is still alive, but I find it highly unlikely she is. I suppose stranger things have happened, but it honestly never occurred to me that she could be. I can't find any potential birth indexes for anyone before about 1900, so...

But if you think you should close the thread, okay.

[kiterunner]

I won't need to close the thread, James; I will just remove her name and people can PM you or me for the name if they want to help look.

[kiterunner]

Okay, I have edited her name out of the thread but it can be changed back if we find she is deceased.

Don't forget that she could have been born outside of England and Wales, James.

[Merry]

When I click the link for Herbert's wife's death I get someone over 20 years older than Herbert (if he was b 1916). Is that right/likely?

[Mary from Italy]

You can rule out the AMP, born in Ireland, who shows up in the Surrey electoral rolls from 1918 to 1939, because she was born too early and died unmarried in 1954.

[James18]

When I click the link for Herbert's wife's death I get someone over 20 years older than Herbert (if he was b 1916). Is that right/likely?
Well, I have no idea, but I was working on the assumption she may have been older than him. I was also trying to work out who the girl with the 1897 baptism was.

[Merry]

Herbert's probate entry gives his address as 77 Slade Rd Ottershaw in 1970. There is an electoral roll entry for his wife's name at that address in 2002 (fmp)

[Merry]

Another site, PhoneEbook.co.uk, seems to have her still there in 2013, but I cant be sure of the date.

[James18]

Well spotted. There's a premium entry for her on 192.com as well, but I've not viewed it.

Hmm.

EDIT: She's on britishphonebook.com, with the correct address. The data for that website is usually 15-20 years old, though.

[Tom Tom]

Possible she is still around! If she was 20 when she married in 1940, she would be 94/95.

I have a relative who married in 1941 (now aged 98).

[Tom Tom]

Herbert's probate entry gives his address as 77 Slade Rd Ottershaw in 1970. There is an electoral roll entry for his wife's name at that address in 2002 (fmp)

It's a bungalow (google streetview).

[Merry]

AMELIA HALE (Millie)
Passed away peacefully on 17th October 2010 aged 91.
Much loved mother and grandmother.
Will be sadly missed by W, X, Y and Z
Her funeral service will take place at
Christ Church, Ottershaw on
Friday 29th October at 11.30 a.m.
Followed by Committal at
Woking Crematorium at 12.30 p.m.

http://www.bmdsonline.co.uk/gatwick-skyport/obituary/6645462?s_source=tmso_bmd_gas

[James18]

Oh, nice one. I had just seen that about five minutes ago, but skipped over it as I hadn't seen the mention of Chertsey. Very good!

So, I wonder if we can now work backwards and find her birth index. I wonder why I couldn't find any children, as they clearly had children and grandchildren (mentioned on the obituary) and she surely can't have been married before 1940. Well, it is possible, but it would surprise me, and I couldn't find anything when I looked.

[Merry]

I haven't taken the names of the relatives out of the above as it was already published, but we shouldn't research them on here.

[Merry]

If you get stuck with them, James, you can pm me and I'll have a look whilst X Factor is on!

[Merry]

I've got some entries here, so shout if you want them. I'm just cooking dinner at the mo.

[James18]

Just eating mine. PM me anything you have please Merry. :)

[Merry]

OK, I'll do that when I've finished - just got lasagne on the keyboard!

I'll take those names out of the obit now I know you've seen it!

[Merry]

pm sent

[Olde Crone]

Is this too far out left?

Emily R (say it!) Passmore Sep 1920 Bristol 6a 314

Mmn Bath. Emily R is a twin.

The other thing...the obit asks for donations to Coram. Isn't that the Foundling Hospital?

OC

[Merry]

Good point re Coram - I didn't notice that!

I think unless you get lucky the only way to get a background for Amelia may be to get the marriage cert. I've looked at a lot of Passmore probate entries, overseas birth records, newspapers etc and found nothing yet, but that doesn't make her a foundling! Also, even if she was a foundling, the marriage cert will probably give the name of her 'adoptive' father which might be of interest.

[Merry]

Is this too far out left?

Emily R (say it!) Passmore Sep 1920 Bristol 6a 314

Mmn Bath. Emily R is a twin.


OC

Emily R died the following Q.

[Olde Crone]

DURH Merry, I was just about to check marriages and deaths. Thanks. (Multitasking here, unsuccessfully)

OC

[James18]

Well, here's a turn-up for the books...

I just spoke to a cousin of my grandmother's regarding Amelia, who was his mother. We've been chatting a bit recently and he's been helping me with parts of my family tree. I mentioned his mother, saying that I wasn't able to find any kind of birth record for her, and, doubting she was born abroad, thought there must be some sort of story behind that, and he laughed and said 'no, you won't find anything on her... and there certainly is a story!' He gave me the short version, saying she'd been born Bessie Grace Routledge in Farnborough (Hampshire) and was a twin -- they were separated, renamed and ended up in different families, and didn't manage to get in touch again until they were in their 30s. Bessie became known as Milly, and the boy - named Reginald - was known as Sam.

It did have a happy ending as they were able to get in touch, and both married and had children, who remain close. Both Milly and Sam are dead now (the births were Q2 1919) but their families have spent years trying to trace relatives of their parents, and it seems there has been some degree of success there.

Still, I thought it was fascinating as it's certainly one of those things I'd never have been able to figure out on my own. It certainly pays to get in touch with relatives where possible, as it can often be the case that people know things that aren't documented anywhere. :)

EDIT:

Births Jun 1919

Routledge Bessie G Routledge Hartley W. 2c 320
Routledge Reginald S Routledge Hartley W. 2c 320 (presumably the brother)

[Merry]

Still, I thought it was fascinating as it's certainly one of those things I'd never have been able to figure out on my own. It certainly pays to get in touch with relatives where possible, as it can often be the case that people know things that aren't documented anywhere.


Well done! I agree some things cannot be found out without help.

Yesterday I discovered a man on my tree had separated from his wife and taken a lover. The lover had a child and her partner registered the birth. Normal people in this situation might pretend they were married to their lover (this was in 1920) but this man took things to a whole new level by stating the mother of the child was his wife (not his lover)!! It's looking likely he did the same again in 1932 only this time it was a different (unknown) lover who had the child and again he said the baby's mother was his wife.

Think of all those times we think we have the truth because we have the cert!

[Olde Crone]

And think of all those times when we don't even know there's a cert that needs buying, lol.

I had awful trouble with my 2 x GGF George Craig. Well, I dismissed the only candidate initially because he never married - single in 1851, single again in 1861, single in 1871. Eventually after much head scratching, I discovered that he had married between census, had two children and his wife died. It didn't help that the two children were living with their maternal grandmother, described as lodgers AND said grandmother had remarried twice.

It was only when I answered a ten year old message on Ancestry that I realised he had married again. Contact knew everything about the second marriage, nothing about the first. Together we completed the whole picture.

OC

[kiterunner]

One of my relatives ordered an overseas army birth certificate from the GRO for someone in our tree, and it shows the father's second wife as the mother, although he was still married to his first wife when this child was born, and although the child appears on the census as grandson of the first wife's parents. I don't think there was anything untoward going on in the family in this case; I think it must be that the army records don't actually include the full information for a birth certificate and so whoever drew the certificate up assumed the mother's name from the father's records and didn't notice that he was married twice. But something to watch out for if anyone orders a similar certificate!