Information on James Hale

[James18]

Hi all,

I'm trying to trace James Hale, who died in Addlestone/Chertsey in June 1972. His death index is here (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=James&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Hale&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1898&msbpn__ftp=Ottershaw%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87769&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87769% 7c0%7c&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=BMD_DEATH&h=39438650&db=ONSDeath93&indiv=1&ml_rpos=1), and I believe this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=James&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Hale&gsln_x=1&mswpn__ftp=Surrey%2c+England&mswpn=5286&mswpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c0%7c0% 7c&MSAV=1&msbdy=1897&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=7901755&recoff=7+8&db=FreeBMDBirth&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2) is his birth index.

I know he died in Surrey, and I'm pretty sure he was born there. Assuming this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=James&gsfn_x=1&gsln=Hale&gsln_x=1&mswpn__ftp=Surrey%2c+England&mswpn=5286&mswpn_PInfo=7-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c0%7c0% 7c&MSAV=1&msbdy=1897&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=4520645&db=uki1901&indiv=1&ml_rpos=3) is his 1901 census record, does anyone know where his 1911 one is? I think he'd have been in Surrey at the time, but I can't be sure. I've tried various searches but can't find who I think would be him.

Any help appreciated. Thanks!

[Merry]

He's crossed through in his family's entry:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_03001_0277_03?pid=41504469&backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2f%2fcg i-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1911england%26gss %3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3direne%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhale%26gsln_x%3 d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dsurrey%26gskw_x%3d1 %26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucke t%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672%26pcat%3d35%26fh% 3d0%26h%3d41504469%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos%3d1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true

[James18]

Huh. That's... weird.

What do you think the reason for that would be? Have you seen it before?

[ElizabethHerts]

His will is listed on the Probate Calendar.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Hale&yearOfDeath=1972&page=2#calendar

[Merry]

Huh. That's... weird.

What do you think the reason for that would be? Have you seen it before?

A number of possibilities......dead (not this time!), normally lived at home, but away for census night, always away from home but accidentally included because of not reading/misunderstanding the instructions, crossed through before census night, but then he was at home after all, so not included anywhere else....... I could go on!!

[James18]

Thank you very much to both of you!

I'll see what else I can dig up. I may have some more questions later (as always) :D

[James18]

A number of possibilities......dead (not this time!), normally lived at home, but away for census night, always away from home but accidentally included because of not reading/misunderstanding the instructions, crossed through before census night, but then he was at home after all, so not included anywhere else....... I could go on!!
On balance, I suspect this may be the case, as I've not been able to find him elsewhere and it's extremely unlikely he would have been abroad.

I've manually linked him to that census on my tree on Ancestry, but I'm not sure if it's possible for me to edit him back onto the census record.

[Shona]

Other possibilities as to why he may have been listed at home and then the entry crossed through - he was in hospital or in some form of institution, such as an industrial school.

[Mary from Italy]

I wonder if this could be him in 1911, with his surname mistranscribed and his age slightly out? People didn't worry too much about servants' names in those days, I don't think.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_00396_0709_03/1335594?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911England%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_ r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d james%26gsfn_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1897%26msbdy_x%3d1%26 msbdp%3d5%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26 msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msm ng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3 d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dott*shaw %26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dyc2&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

I haven't found a matching James Isles in the 1901 census or the birth index.

[James18]

Well, it does say he's from Ottershaw, which should significantly narrow it down (if true).

Excellent sleuthing skills!

EDIT: Ah, hang on.

There's this (http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gss=angs-g&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=James&gsfn_x=0&gsln=Isles&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1897&msbpn__ftp=Ottershaw%2c+Surrey%2c+England&msbpn=87769&msbpn_PInfo=8-%7c0%7c0%7c3257%7c3251%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c5286%7c87769% 7c0%7c&msrpn__ftp_x=1&msypn__ftp_x=1&msfng_x=1&msfns_x=1&msmng_x=1&msmns_x=1&msbng0_x=1&mssng0_x=1&mssns0_x=1&mscng0_x=1&gskw=ott*shaw&gskw_x=1&MSAV=1&uidh=yke&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=4525354&db=uki1901&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2). I think that's his family.

[Mary from Italy]

Oh yes, that does seem likely, what a pity. Sorry about that!

[Mary from Italy]

Do you know where he was between 1901 and his death? If not, you could try looking at the Surrey electoral rolls on Ancestry.

[James18]

As far as I know, Chertsey. He did marry in Bristol, but that wasn't until the 1920s, and he seems a bit young to have travelled there as early as 1911. A possibility, though.

[Phoenix]

He is in the Chertsey area in the 1920s when a sister gets married.

I expect he was just staying with friends. It's the enumerator that has made a fuss, isn't it - with that purple pencil.

[James18]

Yes, he is on Mary Ann Hale's (second) marriage certificate as a witness. I found that last night; well-spotted! :D

So far I am amazed at how much stuff about the Hales is on Ancestry. I have so far been able to find baptism records (with scans) for, I think, all of James' siblings, as well as several marriage certificates.

These are all local Surrey records of course. I wish there was this much information for the Eighteens!

[James18]

Incidentally, from what I can gather so far, James' parents had twelve children, and his sister Mary Ann Hale/Horne/Glue had thirteen. This tree is getting a lot bigger than I expected. :D

[James18]

Oh, something else of interest, as I'd never seen this done before. James' sister Irene Louisa Hale had four children. Two were killed during the Blitz, and the other two were twins: Eileen Freda and Freda Eileen. At first I thought this was a case of the same birth being registered twice, with the names switched, but I've found different marriages and deaths for each of them, both giving the same date of birth.

I thought that was quite novel, as I've never seen an example of twins being given the same names but switched. I suppose it must happen, though.