Adoptive family for a change

[Glen TK]

I've been looking at my adoptive family on and off for a while but always had a problem with a grandmother. She was always told she had been born in London and her mother was a singer/stage performer. She was brought up in Gainsborough, Lincs never knowing who her mother was.
When she (granny) died a few years back nobody knew her maiden name though the registrar discovered it to be Lotus. There isn't a birth reg for her and very few records for the Lotus surname.

Both her marriage certs and birth certs of children suggest she was born Agnes Alexander Lotus. There isn't a birth reg for her and very few records for the surname. Throughout her life she was known as Peggy but nobody quite knows why.

On her first marriage cert no father is recorded, age suggests a yob of 1909. The birth reg for her two daughters (1929 and 1935) notes mmn as Lotus.
Her 2nd marriage in 1949 notes her father as James Walker, deceased, boiler makers labourer. Both certs show her forenames as Agnes Alexander. Again her age suggests a yob of 1909.

In the 1911 census at Gainsborough there is a James Walker, boilermakers labourer, aged 58, also in the household is an Agnes Alexandria, b1909, Manchester, nurse child. No other household members with the Alexandria surname.

I've checked Lancs bmd and there is a Peggy Agnes Alexander, b1909, Manchester Central Dist, mmn Alexander.


I'm tempted to buy the cert but is it going to help? It's not going to pin down her mother much in the 1901-1911 census.

[kiterunner]

I'm tempted to buy the cert but is it going to help? It's not going to pin down her mother much in the 1901-1911 census.

It might if her mother has an uncommon first name! But let's just see if we can find anything else to help before you fork out for the cert...

There is a George H Walker / Louisa Alexander marriage Oct-Dec 1914 but in Stockton district.

Also probably unconnected - a Peggy Agnes Reid baptised 10 Feb 1909 at St John's Church, Manchester, parents William and Margaret Alexandra. I can't see any sign of her in the BMD indexes at the moment so will try to find the baptism image for further info - I just found it on the ancestry index that comes from FamilySearch at the moment.

[kiterunner]

Okay, found that Reid baptism in the PR's and the father is a butcher, address 78 Gartside St. DOB 3 Feb 1909.

[kiterunner]

I found a few households at 78 Gartside Street on the 1911 census but no Reids or Alexanders.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, I can't find a William Reid, butcher, in Manchester on the 1909 or 1911 census. Nor any other baptisms for children of William and Margaret.

But there is the baptism of an Arthur Alexandra, son of Margaret, of 57 Thompson St, 4 Mar 1903 at St Paul, Manchester, and an Ella Alexander, daughter of Margaret Emma, housemaid of 10 Edwin St, 20 Aug 1905 at St Mary's Wardleworth, Rochdale.

[Merry]

Ella Alexander aged 5 b Rochdale (1911) niece of Georgina Hume nee Alexander aged 30. In 1891 Georgina has a sister, Margaret aged 13.

[Merry]

Margaret Emma Alexander is single in 1911 and in Rochdale.

[Merry]

I was stuck with the Arthur one, which seems the more likely to be connected,

[Shona]

The surname of two-year-old Agnes in the household of James Walker in Gainsborough in 1911 looks like Alexander to me, not Alexandria.

[kiterunner]

Arthur seems to have been registered with the surname Alexander, first quarter of 1903 (FreeBMD), and actually born in 1902 (Lancashire BMD, but doesn't show MMN to confirm).

[kiterunner]

Hmm, this is probably the Arthur whose birth reg I was looking at, but is he also Arthur Alexandra from the baptism or not:
1911 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_23876_0251_03/24347603?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3 d1911UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dart*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dal*x*%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msbdy%3d1903%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbp n__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1 %26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns _x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d 1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

85 Dale Street, Hulme, Manchester
Whilhelmeina Alexander Head 51 Widow married 28 years, 7 children, 4 living, 3 died, Boarding House, Manchester
Jean Alexander Daughter 20 Single General Servant Manchester
Maud Alexander Daughter 17 Single Printing Works Manchester
Whilhelmeina Alexander Daughter 13 School Manchester
Arthur Alexander Son 8 School Manchester
Mr C Walker Lodger 60 Widower Manchester
Julia Hart Lodger 23 Single Waitress (Restaurant) Wolverhampton

[kiterunner]

The surname of two-year-old Agnes in the household of James Walker in Gainsborough in 1911 looks like Alexander to me, not Alexandria.

Me too. Well, actually it looks like Alxander to me.

[kiterunner]

Arthur Alexander (the one from the census in post #11) marries an Alice Vaughan in 1924 and his father is Alexander Alexander (deceased), a joiner. (One of the witnesses is Maud Alexander to confirm it is the family from post #11.)
This is the family in 1901 and yes, the head is Alexander Alexander:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LANRG13_3702_3704-0118/23206924?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dmaud*%26 gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dalex*%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ft p_x%3d1%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_ AdvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1894%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw _x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26ca tbucket%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Alexander Alexander died Jan-Mar 1911.

I can find baptisms for the girls, but not for Arthur yet.

In 1891 Alexander and Wilhelmina do have a daughter Margaret C, age 6 (born Manchester):
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/LANRG12_3191_3192-0527/21948503?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1891%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dalex*%26 gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dalex*%26gsln_x%3d0%26MSAV%3d1% 26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20% 26fsk%3dBEEGZmYIgAAZxgADPFU-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

So, I'm thinking maybe there is only one Arthur, and he is actually Margaret's son, but down on the census etc as son to his grandparents?

[Glen TK]

Sorry, I nodded off. Painkillers kicked in big style :)

I know James Walker (from the 1911) married Harriett Allen, there's some confusion over the names of daughters, one I can find a marriage for but not the others. I haven't traced James or Harriet back to see if the Alexander name fits anywhere, I would have thought if they took on bringing up an infant they would have known the mother, especially if Manchester was the correct place of birth, as it's not exactly on the doorstep.

Apologies re the Alexander/Alexandria mix up. The 1949 marriage cert is Agnes Alexandria Oughton, widow, formerlly Agnes Alexandria Lotus though I'm pretty sure that's a red herring. There just aren't any bmd or census to support the Lotus name as being correct.

[kiterunner]

I know James Walker (from the 1911) married Harriett Allen, there's some confusion over the names of daughters, one I can find a marriage for but not the others. I haven't traced James or Harriet back to see if the Alexander name fits anywhere, I would have thought if they took on bringing up an infant they would have known the mother, especially if Manchester was the correct place of birth, as it's not exactly on the doorstep.


Maybe they were being paid to look after her?

[Glen TK]

I did wonder that though the distance makes me think the families knew each other. A daughter of the Walker family married one of the boarders from an earlier census, in 1911 the two households lived two doors apart and both had nurse children. The daughters' nurse child being born locally so possibly a temporary arrangement. Granny went on to live with another daughter until she went into service.

I don't know if I'll ever prove what happened but finding a birth that matches closely to the 1911 info seems too much of a coincidence. It's just the Peggy forename that doesn't fit the 1911 details but may, or may not, explain why granny was called Peggy throughout her life.

[kiterunner]

Agnes' death registration has her DOB as 8 Feb 1909 and Peggy Agnes Reid's baptism has hers as 3 Feb 1909, pretty close.

[Glen TK]

When gran died in 2001 her dob was given as 8 Feb 1909.

I suppose it's still a case of

Was her birth registered
If so, when, what name and was it Manchester as the 1911 or somewhere else?

[kiterunner]

I reckon she was registered as Peggy Agnes Alexander and baptised as Peggy Agnes Reid, just trying to think of a way to prove it.

[kiterunner]

I suppose the Peggy Agnes Alexander birth certificate, which you started this thread by saying you might order, might have some information to help.

[Merry]

Wilhelmina sr said she had seven living children, four alive in 1911. We don't know if she was including Arthur in those numbers or not.

If we ignore Arthur, there's:

Margaret's sister, Wilhelmina Alexander married William Howard in 1920. Witnesses were William Newton and Maud Alexander.

Sister Jean Alexander married William Newton in 1921. Witnesses were Arthur Arnold and Agnes May Arnold.

There's a possible death for Maud in 1970 if she didn't marry.

So, three alive, above.

Two likely dec'd:


Births Dec 1887
Alexander Me___ Cooper Chorlton 8c 897

Deaths Jun 1888
ALEXANDER Meina Cooper 0 Chorlton 8c 533

Births Jun 1890
Alexander Samuel Cooper Chorlton 8c 914

Deaths Mar 1892
Alexander Samuel Cooper 1 Chorlton 8c 651

So, is Margaret the missing living child or the missing dec'd child?

[Olde Crone]

This is probably irrelevant but I'm putting it here anyway.

Only a handful of LOTUS anywhere, but loads of LATUS in Lancashire. Oddly, the only Lotus I can find is a musician (male) which might be interesting, given the possibility that the mother of Agnes was an actress.

OC

[Kit]

Could Lotus be a stage name and not a real name?

So while she was known as Lotus, it wasn't her real name?

It might be worthwhile to see if there are any actresses named Lotus.

[Glen TK]

This is probably irrelevant but I'm putting it here anyway.

Only a handful of LOTUS anywhere, but loads of LATUS in Lancashire. Oddly, the only Lotus I can find is a musician (male) which might be interesting, given the possibility that the mother of Agnes was an actress.

OC

It's one of those "wrong side of the blanket" type stories, about the only thing I can say for certain is the 1901 Walker family lived just round the corner from members of my birth family in Gainsborough, nothing to add to the who,what, where but one of those little observations and discoveries you make.

[Merry]

There are various refs to an actress named Margaret Lotus in the US between 1911 and 1920. Here's her photo:

http://www.mocavo.co.uk/Duluth-Evening-Herald-May-1915-Volume-May-15-1915/967172/11

If I had access to US records I'd look to see if there was anything in the US census to eliminate her.

[Shona]

I can't find any evidence of a Margaret Lotus travelling to and from the USA, Merry.

However, looking at the records of The Era on Find My Past, there are some references to the Sisters Lotus, operatic duettists. They were rehearsing at the Hippodrome, Birkenhead in 1909. Another report states they 'gave a couple of tuneful duets in creditable style'.

[Shona]

Looking at the US census records for Margaret Lotus.

1910 - Philadelphia
Margaret Lotus (indexed as Lopus), single, 22, chambermaid, no children, born Ireland, ditto parents. Emigrated to US in 1904.

1920 - New Jersey
There is a Margaret Lotus (but looks like Latus to me on the image) married to Philip. She was 45, born in New Jersey of Irish parents. He was a butcher.

1930 - Chicago
Margaret Lotus, born 1905, boarder, stenographer, both parent born in Illinois.

1930 - New York
Margaret Lotus, widow, 80, aunt in a household headed by a Clagesgens (???). She was born in the Irish Free State, as were her parents. Emigrated to the USA in 1855.

In 1920, there is a marriage of a 27-year-old schoolteacher named Margaret Lotus to a farmer called Terence Lynch in Michigan.

Not looking good for any actresses. Poss Margaret Lotus was a stage name?

[kiterunner]

I think Margaret Lotus must have been a stage name, but haven't managed to find out who she really was. I have found some other cast members from "The Honeymoon Trail" on the 1910 census but not found a lot of others - I think a lot of them used stage names. And I haven't found a way to search the 1910 census by occupation yet.

[kiterunner]

The Era 11 Aug 1906
page 23 - Amusements in Glasgow
Queen's. Lessee, Mr B. M. Armstrong; Acting-Manager, Mr Harry Bowerman.- Stil another hall reopened on Monday, and with a very good programme. Madge Grey is a dainty comedienne, whose dialect songs and imitations of children are much enjoyed. Horace Wheatley is a great favourite in song, dance, or patter; Curtis and Vanity are a clever couple, the lady's dancing and acrobatic feats being really marvellous; the Transfields do a smart musical turn; Peggy Lotus is a juvenile vocalist of promise; Jack Rae supplies a clever and amusing comedy acrobatic turn; Cassie de Frece sings some Scotch songs effectively; a very smart comedy act is done by Indiarubber Reco, entitled How to Become an Acrobat; and the bioscope has a fine selection of new films.

[Shona]

Oooh - brilliant find. Perhaps she was one of the Sisters Lotus mentioned in The Era.

[Olde Crone]

But aren't the dates out of sync? Peggy a juvenile vocalist in 1907 can't be either Peggy the mother (too young if she's a juvenile vocalist) and not yet born if she's Peggy Agnes.

Is it possible that Agnes Alexander just made up a fantasy mother and father for herself out of people she had heard about, or even possibly seen?

OC

[kiterunner]

I suppose it depends on how young a "juvenile vocalist" was. Agnes was born in 1909.

[kiterunner]

The Sisters Lotus were still performing in 1910, so if Peggy Lotus was one of the sisters, she wasn't the same person as Margaret Lotus the actress in America. Except that of course she could have been replaced by a younger sister (or even "sister") by then and they could have kept the same name.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I am wondering if the name Peggy Lotus is trying to "anglicise" a foreign name. There was a family here in the 1960s the surname was Latis and they had a daughter whose name was Pasla .. He was of Middle European descent .. don't think they were Polish, more like Hungarian or Czech ..

[Shona]

Good point, Julie. Loutush (and variants) is a Jewish surname or Russian origin.

I had also wondered if Lotus was a mistranscription of Loftus/Lofthouse.

[Olde Crone]

I thought the same, Shona, given the Scottish sounding names - Loftus could sound like Lotus to an English ear!

OC