An opinion on these two photos please

[Margaret in Burton]

Taking another look at old family photos. We have this one and aren't sure who it is. I do know it's from OH's Stanbridge line. It looks like a cavalry regiment or at least he rode a horse in the regiment as he's wearing spurs and carrying a riding crop.


http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Stanbridge%20unknown_zpsv1vaou2s.jpg (http://s660.photobucket.com/user/margharrison/media/Stanbridge%20unknown_zpsv1vaou2s.jpg.html)

This next one is Francis Stanbridge 1895-1916. First battlion Gordon Highlanders - killed in action. Regimental number 11046


http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Stanbridge%20Francis%20-%20Gordon%20Highlanders%20-%201895-1916_zpsjrpxrmfr.jpg (http://s660.photobucket.com/user/margharrison/media/Stanbridge%20Francis%20-%20Gordon%20Highlanders%20-%201895-1916_zpsjrpxrmfr.jpg.html)


Previously to joining the Gordons he enlisted in the North Staffordshire regiment and was discharged unfit in September 1914 regimental number 1738

Could they be the same person? the eyes and mouth are similar or should I be thinking brother or cousin?

[Margaret in Burton]

I do know of one brother who served in WW1. Vincent George Stanbridge, known as George. He was born in 1899 but joined under age. His daughter told me that he celebrated his 18th birthday in the trenches. I did show her this photo and she said she didn't think it was her father. I have never found his army record and his daughter didn't know what regiment he was in.

This is Vincent George in 1924, sorry it's not a good quality image.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Vincent%20George%20Stanbridge%20amp%20Emily%20Stri ckland_zpssv8obwas.jpg (http://s660.photobucket.com/user/margharrison/media/Vincent%20George%20Stanbridge%20amp%20Emily%20Stri ckland_zpssv8obwas.jpg.html)


Found his army record. Enlisted as George. Can't see a date of birth on it but the address is correct. Regimental number 4442 North Staffs

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=britisharmyservice&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&MS_AdvCB=1&gsfn=george&gsfn_x=1&gsln=stanbridge&gsln_x=1&msbpn__ftp_x=1&msrpn__ftp_x=1&msipn__ftp_x=1&msypn__ftp_x=1&_83004002_x=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&MSAV=-1&uidh=p77&pcat=39&fh=4&h=1875810&recoff=&ml_rpos=5

[Shona]

There's a medal record card for George Standbridge as well. He was also a sapper in the Royal Engineers - Inland Water Transport. http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=iwoservicemedalawardrolls&gss=angs-d&new=1&rank=1&gsfn=george&gsfn_x=1&gsln=stanbridge&gsln_x=NN&MSAV=1&cpxt=1&cp=11&catbucket=rstp&uidh=fpy&pcat=39&fh=6&h=5015419&recoff=5+6&ml_rpos=7

I don't think the kilted chap is the same person.

If he has a crop and spurs, the unidentified person could have been a driver (or horses, that is) of some sort, rather than being in the cavalry.

[Shona]

What do you think about the cap badge in the unidentified chap's photo? Is it a fleur de lys or a crown at the top? The first would be North Staffs and the second would be South Staffs.

[Margaret in Burton]

What do you think about the cap badge in the unidentified chap's photo? Is it a fleur de lys or a crown at the top? The first would be North Staffs and the second would be South Staffs.

Yes, I found that medal roll too afterwards.

As for the cap badge, not certain. It looks more like a fleur de lays to me. North Staffs would be more likely for Burton upon Trent. My grandfather was in the North Staffs in the Boar War. Francis Stanbridge of course first enlisted in the North Staffs until he was declared medically unfit.

[Margaret in Burton]

So, is the unknown soldier George? As I said, his daughter was unsure. The other brothers were much too young for the war..If it is him and it was a photo taken on enlisting, he would have been 16.

As I said, yes he did enlist under age, we've always known that.

Does he look 16? He does look young.

[Olde Crone]

FWIW, I think the ears are very similar on all three photos. Would you have any other, identified, photos, to compare ears?

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

FWIW, I think the ears are very similar on all three photos. Would you have any other, identified, photos, to compare ears?

OC

No, sorry OC that's all I have.

[Kit]

The lips on the first 2 photos don't look the same but definitely related.

I can't get a good enough look at the third photo to say anything.

[Janet]

To me they're practically twins, Marg. If I saw them in the street I don't know that I could tell them apart. The only thing I see a bit different is the left eye, where the first photo shows quite a droop in the eyelid. That can change with age, of course, but they're both pretty young in these photos. I don't think the 1924 photo of Vincent George shows any droopy eyelid either, so probably not the same man as that first photo I'd say because the droop should advance with age, not disappear.

[Merry]

To me they're practically twins, Marg. If I saw them in the street I don't know that I could tell them apart.

Same for me, Janet. And re the droopy eyelid; it could be he was about to blink or had just blinked.

(I have lost count of the number of photos in mum's albums with me looking demented because my eyes are half closed (mum always put EVERY photo in the album, including those where the flash didn't work or the picture was of the pavement etc!))

[Margaret in Burton]

To me they're practically twins, Marg. If I saw them in the street I don't know that I could tell them apart. The only thing I see a bit different is the left eye, where the first photo shows quite a droop in the eyelid. That can change with age, of course, but they're both pretty young in these photos. I don't think the 1924 photo of Vincent George shows any droopy eyelid either, so probably not the same man as that first photo I'd say because the droop should advance with age, not disappear.

Same for me, Janet. And re the droopy eyelid; it could be he was about to blink or had just blinked.

(I have lost count of the number of photos in mum's albums with me looking demented because my eyes are half closed (mum always put EVERY photo in the album, including those where the flash didn't work or the picture was of the pavement etc!))



So, you both think that they are both Francis?

The first him in the North Staffs uniform before he was declared unfit?

[Merry]

If I'd been looking at the photos with no other info, I would have just presumed they were the same person without another thought. Obviously, the uniforms would have to fit the facts!

Vincent George has a similar look, like a brother might well have, but that's all (IMHO).

[Just Gillian]

I think photos one and two are of the same man. Ears, mouth and eyes look the same to me. Photo 3 seems to have a narrower top to his nose, although that could just be the light. All three seem to have the same long fingers.

[Margaret in Burton]

Is the uniform of the Gordon Highlanders always with a kilt?

[Merry]

Is the uniform of the Gordon Highlanders always with a kilt?

There's some WW1 info here:

http://www.gordonhighlanders1914-18.co.uk/uniform.html

Some are in trousers.

[Shona]

There is a transcription of the War Diary for the 1st Gordon Highlanders. http://www.thegordonhighlanders.co.uk/Pages/Diary.htm#1916Jan Francis lost his life on 2 March 1916. This is the relevant entry.

Reninghelst
March. Opened with final preparations for attack. Reached assembly points; 9th Northumberland Fusiliers relieved by Bn. Assault began at 4.30 am on 2nd March Reninghelst with some initial success on the night, left section failed, 3 platoon practically annihilated ('A' Company). Very heavy casualties suffered, totalling 245 killed and wounded. All counter attacks repulsed, heavy shelling our lines, and reserve and support lines!

I wonder if we can date the photo based on the uniform? Is there a photographer's mark on either of the military photos?

The kilted soldier is wearing a Glengarry cap. This was replaced with a khaki Balmoral tam following the winter of 1914-1915. He's also wearing brogues. These were useless in winter in muddy conditions. Therefore boots replaced shoes - again following the winter of 1914-1915.

The Gordon Highlander wore the kilt throughout World War 1. It was covered with a khaki pinny when on duty. Trews didn't become part of the uniform until World War 2, I think 9and they are tartan trews). New recruits sometimes wore trews until they were issued with their kilts.

The jacket is a standard khaki jacket. A cutaway jacket was worn with a kilt, but shortage of supply meant some new recruits wore a the standard jacket.

He isn't wearing a belt, which Highland troops would normally wear over their cutaway jackets.

My guess (and it is just that) is that the kilted soldier is a new recruit who hadn't yet got his full uniform and that the picture was taken before the uniform changes of the winter of 1915.

Have we any idea when Francis enlisted?

I think the pic of the North Staffs soldier and the Gordon Highlander are the same person.

[Margaret in Burton]

Thanks for that Shona, very interesting.

No photographers marks on the kilted soldier, the other was taken by J S Simnett of Burton. A well known local photographers that is still in business.

I have not been able to find a service record for Francis in the Gordon Highlanders, I have seen his medal card index.

I have this noted in my records.

11046 1st Battalion Gordon Highlanders (He joined the North Staffs Regiment in Feb 1912 (Private 1738) and was discharged as being medically unfit in Sep 1914.)

I assume he joined the Gordon Highlanders after being discharged from the North Staffs in September 1914.

[Margaret in Burton]

I also have this image taken with his sister and step sister. I don't have the original.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Francis%20S-%20Elsie%20S-%20poss%20Celina%20Powell_zpsrbhgch4w.jpg (http://s660.photobucket.com/user/margharrison/media/Francis%20S-%20Elsie%20S-%20poss%20Celina%20Powell_zpsrbhgch4w.jpg.html)

[Margaret in Burton]

Ah, I've just discovered an error in my work.

He wasn't in the North Staffs, he was in the East Sussex regiment,

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007273395%2f00066&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7273395%2f7%2f66

Edit, No I think that's a mistake by Find my Past. They've transcribed it as East Sussex but I think it's North Staffs

As you can see he enlisted as Frank which is what he was known by in the family.


http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Capture_zpslxyt137e.png (http://s660.photobucket.com/user/margharrison/media/Capture_zpslxyt137e.png.html)

[Shona]

I also have this image taken with his sister and step sister. I don't have the original.

http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu326/margharrison/Francis%20S-%20Elsie%20S-%20poss%20Celina%20Powell_zpsrbhgch4w.jpg (http://s660.photobucket.com/user/margharrison/media/Francis%20S-%20Elsie%20S-%20poss%20Celina%20Powell_zpsrbhgch4w.jpg.html)

Love the pic. He's wearing the khaki pinny over his kilt in this one.

[Shona]

I've been playing around with the photos - superimposing one on top of the other to see if the facial proportions are the same, eg, space between tip of nose and mouth, shape and positioning of the ears, etc. They do match. I think one of the pics has been reversed, though, if you look at the arch of the eyebrows.

If this works, here are the faces side-by-side for comparison.

http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u654/shonamcisaac/two%20soldiers%20or%20one_zpszm7fw972.jpg (http://s1326.photobucket.com/user/shonamcisaac/media/two%20soldiers%20or%20one_zpszm7fw972.jpg.html)

[Margaret in Burton]

I've added a correction to FMP. It does say county of Stafford

[Margaret in Burton]

Thanks Shona, just shown OH, it's his great uncle, he thinks they are the same person too from your side by side images.

It's only recently that I discovered about the North Staffs. The family story has always said Gordon Highlanders, no mention of a former regiment. It was only yesterday when I was looking through the photos for the first time for years I was struck by the similarity.

[Merry]

Nice job, Shona! (The photos can't have been reversed though because the fastenings on his tunics are both buttoning the right way!) I'm even more sure they are both the same person (no identical twins in his family I presume!!!??)

[Shona]

Nice job, Shona! (The photos can't have been reversed though because the fastenings on his tunics are both buttoning the right way!) I'm even more sure they are both the same person (no identical twins in his family I presume!!!??)

Well spotted, Merry. :)

[Margaret in Burton]

Nice job, Shona! (The photos can't have been reversed though because the fastenings on his tunics are both buttoning the right way!) I'm even more sure they are both the same person (no identical twins in his family I presume!!!??)

No twins in the family. I was told a lot about that side as Francis' sister was still alive at the time and I met her. All checked with the registers at the RC church.

[Margaret in Burton]

So pleased to have sorted this. I've had that photo for years and everyone kept saying it couldn't be Frank as the uniform was wrong. That was before I discovered that he'd joined up previously.

[Merry]

Well done for making the discovery :)

[Janet]

Yes! Agree. Nice bit of sleuthing, Marg. :)

[Margaret in Burton]

Thank you to all of you for your help and opinions.