James Shepherd B:1807 Yorkshire, England

[Smooth]

Hi All,

I hope I'm requesting in the right area of the forum? :o

Can you help?

I need assistance tracking down a James Shepherd born in 1807 ±2 years in Yorkshire. He was convicted in 1833 at Lancaster and transported to paradise in 1834 for the term of 14 years aboard the "Hive". His crime was noted as Breaking into a warehouse and stealing.

The two things I'm keen to know are his parents/relations and court proceedings.

I'm hope somebody who is used to the English search and closer to available records is able to help.

Thank you in advance.

Regards, Jim

[Merry]

Welcome to the forum, Jim.

It may not be that easy to go straight to a baptism for James Shepherd in Yorkshire as it's quite a common name and can be spelled several different ways. I presume you don't have any further clues such as a specific birth place and/or parents names from a marriage or death cert etc?

Ancestry has this entry in the England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892:

Lancaster Michaelmas Sessions 1833

James Shepherd Breaking into a warehouse and stealing - 14 years

which I'm assuming is the right record. Just looking in the newspapers for those sessions..........

[Merry]

Oh, I forgot to say; I'm just moving this thread to our main research board, as more will probably see it there!

[kiterunner]

There is also this record in the Prison Hulk Registers:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1989/31791_221378-00264/222546?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dprisonregisters%26so%3d2%26pc at%3dCLP_COURT%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja* s%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dshep*d%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbd y%3d1807%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msrpn__ftp_x% 3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV %3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Preston
No 4912 Jas Shepherd, age 27, Stg 50 Pieces & 20 yds(?) Cotton, convicted Preston 16 Octo 1833, sentence 14 years, NSW 8 Jan 34.

[kiterunner]

Here are some records in the Lancashire Quarter Session Records and Petitions, Preston October Session 1833:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6820/4424745_00686/454326?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlancashirequartersession%26so %3d2%26pcat%3dCLP_COURT%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja* s%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dshep*d%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbd p%3d5%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msydy%3d1833%26msydy_x% 3d1%26msydp%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp %3d11%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=4424745_006 86

Prosecutor's Bill
The King on the Prosecution of Thomas Thornber and Nicholas England against James Shepherd for felony.

And the next page is "The King on the Prosecution of William Smith against James Shepherd for felony."

[kiterunner]

Is he the James Sheppard who married Phoebe McQuoin in 1845, and if so, is there any extra information on their marriage record?

[kiterunner]

Preston Chronicle 19 Oct 1833
James Shephard, 27, was indicted upon a bench warrant for breaking the house of Thomas Thornber and Nicholas England, on the 7th of October, 1831, and stealing therefrom fifty pieces and twenty yards of calico cloth, their property. Several depredations of this sort took place at about the same time in the same neighbourhood (Colne) and a number of the parties who took the goods, as well as others who received them were tried and transported in the April Sessions of 1832. The prisoner had kept out of the way until recently. There were two indictments against him of a similar nature, and it was proved that some of the pieces stolen were amongst goods which he had employed a man (now a witness) to sell at a price much under their real value. He was found guilty on both indictments, and the sentence of the Court was that he should be transported for the term of his natural life.

[kiterunner]

This is the Lancashire Quarter Sessions Records and Petitions entry for the original trial in Apr 1832:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6820/4424744_00322/426856?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlancashirequartersession%26so %3d2%26pcat%3dCLP_COURT%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dnic *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dengland%26gsln_x%3d1%26msr pn__ftp_x%3d1%26msydy%3d1832%26msydy_x%3d1%26msydp %3d2%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSA V%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Preston April Session 1832
Prosecutor's Bill
The King on the Prosecution of Thomas Thornber and Nicholas England
against Henry Wadsworth, James Shepherd and James Barker for felony.

[kiterunner]

Criminal Registers entry for Henry Wadsworth and James Barker:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1590/31251_A006043-00440/137477?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dcriminalregisters%26so%3d2%26 pcat%3dCLP_COURT%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dh*r *y%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dw*ds*w*th%26gsln_x%3d1%26 msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msydy%3d1832%26msydy_x%3d1%26ms ydp%3d2%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26 MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Both got 14 years, Henry for breaking and entering a warehouse and stealing, James for receiving stolen goods. The next person listed is Thomas Greenwood, also for receiving stolen goods, with "Admitted Evidence" in the "Acquittals" column, so I am guessing he is the person mentioned in the newspaper report as "now a witness".

[kiterunner]

If you have access to Findmypast, this link will take you to the newspaper report on the trial of Henry Wadsworth and James Barker, a bit too long for me to type out just now:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000099%2f18320407%2f008

(Preston Chronicle, Apr 7 1832, page 3). It will also be on the British Newspaper Archive website. There is no mention of James Shepherd in this report.

[Smooth]

Welcome to the forum, Jim.

It may not be that easy to go straight to a baptism for James Shepherd in Yorkshire as it's quite a common name and can be spelled several different ways. I presume you don't have any further clues such as a specific birth place and/or parents names from a marriage or death cert etc?

Ancestry has this entry in the England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892:



which I'm assuming is the right record. Just looking in the newspapers for those sessions..........

Hello Merry thank you for the welcome and relocating my thread.
I only have Australian records including Ticket of Leave and Certificate of Freedom. These along with who I think he married in Australia. So Marriage & Death Certificates and one birth certificate of a daughter of the marriage.

There is also this record in the Prison Hulk Registers:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1989/31791_221378-00264/222546?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dprisonregisters%26so%3d2%26pc at%3dCLP_COURT%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dja* s%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dshep*d%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbd y%3d1807%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msrpn__ftp_x% 3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV %3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Preston
No 4912 Jas Shepherd, age 27, Stg 50 Pieces & 20 yds(?) Cotton, convicted Preston 16 Octo 1833, sentence 14 years, NSW 8 Jan 34.

Thank you kiterunner for your assistance. I have little idea of places/locations in the UK and I'm only assuming that Hulks were the holding ship prisons?

Preston Chronicle 19 Oct 1833
James Shephard, 27, was indicted upon a bench warrant for breaking the house of Thomas Thornber and Nicholas England, on the 7th of October, 1831, and stealing therefrom fifty pieces and twenty yards of calico cloth, their property. Several depredations of this sort took place at about the same time in the same neighbourhood (Colne) and a number of the parties who took the goods, as well as others who received them were tried and transported in the April Sessions of 1832. The prisoner had kept out of the way until recently. There were two indictments against him of a similar nature, and it was proved that some of the pieces stolen were amongst goods which he had employed a man (now a witness) to sell at a price much under their real value. He was found guilty on both indictments, and the sentence of the Court was that he should be transported for the term of his natural life.

I'm not sure about this? Would a crime in 1831 be tried in October of 1833? I wouldn't have thought!

If you have access to Findmypast, this link will take you to the newspaper report on the trial of Henry Wadsworth and James Barker, a bit too long for me to type out just now:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000099%2f18320407%2f008

(Preston Chronicle, Apr 7 1832, page 3). It will also be on the British Newspaper Archive website. There is no mention of James Shepherd in this report.

Sorry I don't have access to either of the last links you posted and the cost seems high. Nor do I have access to findmypast.co.uk

I'm just getting over paying for certificates and renewed registration with ancestry.com.au

I truly appreciate your efforts.

I'll come back later in the day and read more of what you have been so kind to do so far. 4.00am here need sleep........

Regards, Jim

[kiterunner]

Yes, Hulks were the holding ship prisons.

The newspaper article says that James Shepherd was tried in October 1833 for a crime committed in Oct 1831, so yes, it is correct. The bit where it says "The prisoner had kept out of the way until recently." is the explanation - the police took that long to catch him! If you read through it, you will see that his co-accused were tried in 1832.

The last two links that I posted were just for information about James Shepherd's co-accused. Hopefully I will have time to type out the newspaper article now... back soon...

[kiterunner]

The Preston Chronicle, Apr 7 1832
Friday
Henry Wadsworth, 27, and James Barker, 48, were jointly indicted, the former charged with breaking into a warehouse, at Colne, and stealing ten pieces of cotton cloth, the property of Thomas Thornber and Nicholas England; and the latter with receiving the 10 pieces, and one other piece, knowing the same to be stolen. Thomas Greenwood, who had been apprehended for receiving the same, was admitted approver against the prisoners. There was nothing extraordinary in the evidence. The pieces, it appeared, were offered for sale to Barker, and were bought at a price something below what they would have fetched in the market. Some of the marks which had originally been on the pieces had been torn or cut off. The case as affecting Wadsworth did not appear to be made out so clearly as affecting the other. The prisoner Barker is himself a manufacturer of some standing, and received a good character from several respectable witnesses. The jury found both prisoners guilty.
Henry Wadsworth, the above prisoner, was then charged, on another indictment, with stealing, in February, from the warehouse of Mr Smith, at Briercliffe, twenty three cotton pieces, the property of William Smith. The indictment contained a count for breaking into this prosecutor's warehouse. To the style thereof, the defendant's counsel objected as he considered the venue not to be well laid. - Briercliffe is only termed part of a township, namely Briercliffe with Entwistle.
The court confirmed the objection so taken, and the first count in the indictment was quashed, but the prisoner was tried on the general counts of the indictment for stealing only. Prisoner found guilty of stealing.
James Barker was again ordered to the bar, charged on another indictment with receiving at Colne, 23 pieces of cotton, the property of William Smith.
Thomas Greenwood, who turned king's evidence, proved his having sold the pieces to the prisoner, on the 15th October last for 2s 9d per piece.
Mr Smith, the prosecutor, swore to the pieces being his property, and that they were worth about 4s per piece.
The clerk to the committing magistrates being sworn to the depositions, the voluntary examination of the prisoner was then read, stating that he had never had any dealings with Greenwood before this.
The jury found the prisoner guilty, and the court sentenced the prisoner on the above indictment to 7 years' transportation, and 7 years further on the previous indictment.
N.B. - The prisoner Wadsworth, in the former case, was also transported 14 years - seven years on each indictment.

[kiterunner]

Findmypast and the British Newspaper Archive often run promotions where you can have a 1 month sub for 1 GBP, though I believe you then have to make sure to cancel before the sub is renewed as they will then charge the full amount. Or you may be able to get a free trial, with the same caveat. Also Findmypast sometimes offers free access for a day or a weekend, as does ancestry to various collections. So if you keep watching out for these kind of announcements, you might be able to access some of the records that you can't view at the moment.

[Smooth]

Thank you kiterunner,

That information is truly fantastic!
I will keep an eye out for the site/membership discounts you mentioned.

I'm pretty sure I have the right James Shepherd from this end in Australia. Assuming I'm right he would be my 3rd Great Grandfather through my fathers material line.

Following the transportation information he ended up in Windsor, New South Wales and is the same James Shepherd mentioned in this thread http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=304897#post304897 by tenterfieldjulie marrying Caroline Greentree.

So I guess now I would like to know where James Shepherd lived? Parents/Siblings and if he ever married in the UK?

Thank you so much for your efforts. It is so great to know these things.

Regards, Jim

[Merry]

So I guess now I would like to know where James Shepherd lived? Parents/Siblings and if he ever married in the UK?


Do you have his Australian marriage or death certificates? It may be difficult to determine who which records belong to him before his offence and trial etc with only an approx. year of birth and that he was born in Yorkshire!

I've just done a very quick look on Ancestry and found around 10 different baptism records that fit the information you have been able to give us so far. It may be possible to eliminate some of these, but also there may well be more records on other sites, so too many to choose from at the moment.

You mentioned on the other thread that he and Caroline lived at Windsor NSW. Is this the death record you thought might be James's?

7146/1866 SHEPHERD JAMES AGE 51 YEARS DIED WINDSOR

He seems to have lost a lot of years if the index information matches what is on the certificate. This may not bode well for the accuracy of any other information given!

[kiterunner]

The NSW Register of Convicts' Applications to Marry shows that permission was granted on the 24th May 1845 for James Sheppard, age 38, ship "Hive", sentence 14 years, Ticket of Leave, to marry Phoebe McQueen, age 35, ship "Numa", sentence 14 years, Ticket of Leave, clergyman Rev B L Watson, South Creek. Their marriage is on the NSW marriage index but with her surname as McQuion. I can't figure out what happened to Phoebe after this at the moment, but surely the James Sheppard in this marriage is the one who we have been looking at?

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1504/30514_081753-00342/16677?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dnswconvictmarriag eapps%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dph*b*%26 gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3d*qu*n%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ft p_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_ 83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d2%26catbucket%3dr stp%26pcat%3d34%26fh%3d3%26h%3d16677%26recoff%3d32 %2b33%26ml_rpos%3d4&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Is the James who married Caroline Greentree a widower on that marriage? And is there any other useful information on the marriage certificate for the marriage to Caroline Greentree?

[kiterunner]

Oh, there is another entry for the same couple in the NSW Register of Convicts' Applications to Marry:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1504/30514_081753-00240/33197?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnswconvictmarriageapps%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dph*b*%26 gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3d*qu*n%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ft p_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_ 83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d2%26catbucket%3dr stp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Jas Shepherd, age 33, ship "Hive", Phoebe McQueen, age 32, ship "Numa", date of refusal Mar 15 1841, Revd H I Stiles, Windsor. Shepherd stated in his arrival that he was married.

[kiterunner]

Here is Phoebe McQueen's certificate of freedom, dated 27th Apr 1849:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1689/31801_216730-00151/33127?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dcertfreedom%26so%3d2%26pcat%3 dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dph*b*%26 gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3d*qu*n%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ft p_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_ 83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d2%26catbucket%3dr stp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Born Edinburgh 1809, trial Middlesex GD 17 Oct 1833, sentence 14 years.

At the bottom it says Windsor, 28th Apr 1849.

James Shepherd's certificate of freedom has the same date and also says Windsor 28 Apr 1849 at the bottom:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1689/31801_216730-00149/33125?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dCertFreedom%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_ r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3d ja*s%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dshep*d%26gsln_x%3d1%26m sypn__ftp_x%3d1%26_82004280__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2% 26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Ship Hive, native place Yorkshire, trade or calling Farm Labourer & Shepherd, place of trial Lancaster QS, date of trial 16 Oct 1833, sentence 14 years, year of birth 1807.

[kiterunner]

The NSW Registers of Coroners' Inquests has an entry for Phoebe Shepherd:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1785/32090_223293-00581/137266?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dnswcoronersinquests%26so%3d2% 26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dph*b*%26 gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsh*p*d*%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%2 6_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d2%26catbucket%3 drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Blacktown Road, 27 Jan 1856, Intemperance

[kiterunner]

From Trove newspaper archive (a free site):

Sydney Morning Herald, Wed 6 Feb 1856
Windsor
February 4 - Inquests. - On Sunday, the 27th ult, an inquest was held before the coroner for the district and a jury, at a hut on the Blacktown Road, on the body of a female named Phoebe Sheppard. The following evidence was adduced: John Dunn deposed that the person with whom the deceased lived called on him on the Friday evening previous, and said she was unwell; he went to the hut and found her unable to speak; her man, on witness' recommendation, went for a doctor, but whilst he was away the woman died. The person with whom deceased lived deposed that ever since a week before Christmas she had been drinking hard, and on Friday morning she complained of being ill; he came to Windsor to procure some necessities for her, and on his return found her unable to speak; whilst he was gone for a doctor, she died. Dr Day made a post mortem examination of the body, but found no marks of violence sufficient to cause death; he was professionally acquainted with deceased, and from what he had seen and known of her, he believed that death had resulted from the effects of excessive intemperance. Verdict accordingly.

[Smooth]

Well, Crickey! That has thrown a spanner in the works. Looking like he is not my James Shepherd (maybe/likely?).

All I had to start this investigation is that my 2x Great Grandmother was named Ann Clara Shepherd or Clara Ann Shepherd and I know she had 4 illegitimate children and as far as anyone knows didn't marry. It was "supposed" by many that she was Clara Ann Greentree but this isn't so, as Clara Ann Greentree married James Ayre in Tamworth, NSW where she had many children and died in Tamworth. This led me to Ann Shepherd and her parents James and Caroline who married in Windsor, NSW and were known to Thomas and Catherine Greentree. Where Thomas is brother to Clara Ann Greentree.

My 2x Great Grandmother named her only girl Caroline which at a guess is perhaps after her mother (Caroline Greentree who married James Shepherd)

So far I have Ann Shepherd's 1859 birth certificate.

It states about James Shepherd.
Occupation: Splitter
Age: 40 years
Birth Place: Yorkshire, England

Information supplied by Wife and signed with her mark X.

Based on that 1859-40 years = 1819

Next I have James & Caroline's 1856 marriage certificate.

James Shepherd
Occupation: Splitter
Conjugal Staus: -
Birth Place: -
(Great help!)

Then his 1866 death certificate (transcription).
James Shepherd
Occupation: Splitter
Age: 51
Where born: England
Father: NOT KNOWN PARENTS
Information supplied by Caroline Shepherd (Wife) and signed with her mark X.

1866-51 years = 1815 (4 years out from Ann's birth certificate).

All this led me to thinking "maybe" James Shepherd was a convict?
So I dug about and found the only one that was known to live in Windsor was the one who arrived upon the convict ship (Hive) in 1834. Being born in 1807 only added 8 years to his age (depending on were you take the date).

1834 + 14 years = 1848 then married in Windsor 1856. Looked at the fact he was not to leave the Windsor area on his 1940 ticket of leave. They married in Pitt Town (near Windsor) that didn't have a very large population. Anyway, you can see were I was heading. But now it looks like I'm perhaps on the wrong track with this James Shepherd.

I'm not sure how the illiterate are in keeping dates and age. I have trouble remembering how old I am sometimes!
I originally was searching 1814-1820 births in Yorkshire but wasn't having much luck. I guess a good thing to remember is that he isn't going to get a mention on any census from 1841 in England. So we're looking for a James Shepherd that comes and disappears. It's a pity the English census is flakey before 1841.

If nothing else I can add to the convict registrar about this James Shepherd.

Thank you for all your help. Highly appreciated. Always looking for help!

Regards, Jim

[kiterunner]

What date in 1856 did James and Caroline get married? If it was after Phoebe's death then it could be the same James, if he knocked a few years off his age, couldn't it? Did he sign his name on the marriage to Caroline? If so, then you could get a copy of the entry for the marriage to Phoebe and compare them?

[Mary from Italy]

It may be possible to get more information about the 1856 marriage. Which church were they married at? Did you get the cert from the NSW BDM registry or a transcription agent?

[Smooth]

What date in 1856 did James and Caroline get married? If it was after Phoebe's death then it could be the same James, if he knocked a few years off his age, couldn't it? Did he sign his name on the marriage to Caroline? If so, then you could get a copy of the entry for the marriage to Phoebe and compare them?

They were married 18th August 1856
All signatures are a mark with an (X cross) as they are all illiterate.
Maybe I could compare their marks but I feel that would be pure guess work at best.

The thing that would be the worry for me is that at Thomas Henry Greentree's marriage to Catherine Cohen at Saint Matthews, Windsor on the 19th February 1855 both James and Caroline were the witnesses. So unless there was a split some time before form Phoebe it doesn't sit right for me.

If only James and Caroline's certificate had the same in depth detail.

It may be possible to get more information about the 1856 marriage. Which church were they married at? Did you get the cert from the NSW BDM registry or a transcription agent?

I have the actual marriage certificate and the marriage took place at either "Clare" Farm or "Clear" Farm Pitt Town (near Windsor, NSW). The minister G. Macfie? of the Presbyterian Church.

I cannot find another James Shepherd death in the area at all. Closest would be one in Parramatta in 1891 (12189/1891) but the same is also listed as Waterloo (15332/1891)

So unless he was arrested again and moved or traveled back to the UK.

Regards, Jim

[kiterunner]

The thing that would be the worry for me is that at Thomas Henry Greentree's marriage to Catherine Cohen at Saint Matthews, Windsor on the 19th February 1855 both James and Caroline were the witnesses. So unless there was a split some time before form Phoebe it doesn't sit right for me.



The newspaper report on Phoebe's death and inquest does give me the impression that she was separated from her husband or widowed, as it just refers to the person she was living with, not to her husband.

[Smooth]

From Trove newspaper archive (a free site):

Sydney Morning Herald, Wed 6 Feb 1856
Windsor
February 4 - Inquests. - On Sunday, the 27th ult, an inquest was held before the coroner for the district and a jury, at a hut on the Blacktown Road, on the body of a female named Phoebe Sheppard. The following evidence was adduced: John Dunn deposed that the person with whom the deceased lived called on him on the Friday evening previous, and said she was unwell; he went to the hut and found her unable to speak; her man, on witness' recommendation, went for a doctor, but whilst he was away the woman died. The person with whom deceased lived deposed that ever since a week before Christmas she had been drinking hard, and on Friday morning she complained of being ill; he came to Windsor to procure some necessities for her, and on his return found her unable to speak; whilst he was gone for a doctor, she died. Dr Day made a post mortem examination of the body, but found no marks of violence sufficient to cause death; he was professionally acquainted with deceased, and from what he had seen and known of her, he believed that death had resulted from the effects of excessive intemperance. Verdict accordingly.

I cannot find any record of this death from NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages.
I did look up the original entry on Trove.

The newspaper report on Phoebe's death and inquest does give me the impression that she was separated from her husband or widowed, as it just refers to the person she was living with, not to her husband.

True that might put this James Shepherd back into the spotlight. You would think he would have been mentioned (at least as husband).

It's all very interesting!

Regards, Jim

[kiterunner]

I cannot find any record of this death from NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages.


Me neither. I think I have found deaths in the coroner's inquest records before which didn't come up in the BDM records.

[Smooth]

I did just find a James Shepherd death in 1847 (114/1847 V1847114 109) but nothing on the area. All others I can pretty much dismiss.

I think I might need to purchase all of the couples other children's BDM certificates and like previously hope there is something to latch on to.

Regards, Jim

[tenterfieldjulie]

Jim, I too have found that in the early days, if a Coroner made a report, a separate death cert wasn't issued and it doesn't come up on the BDMs. Julie

[kiterunner]

I did just find a James Shepherd death in 1847 (114/1847 V1847114 109) but nothing on the area. All others I can pretty much dismiss.



Ancestry's Australian Death Index gives the registration place for that one as Field of Mars, Parramatta.

[Smooth]

Jim, I too have found that in the early days, if a Coroner made a report, a separate death cert wasn't issued and it doesn't come up on the BDMs. Julie

Thanks Julie. I have seen that Ancentry has a record of the coroner's enquiry so I guess that's proof enough. Not sure I would want to pay for a copy. It is apparently beyond my paid ancestry.com.au subscription.

Regards, Jim

[Smooth]

Ancestry's Australian Death Index gives the registration place for that one as Field of Mars, Parramatta.

That's were I feel I'm at "Field of Mars"! :D

OK, that's also close enough in my mind. Pretty much Parramatta, Blacktown, Windsor as you follow the road north from Sydney to Hawksbury.

Regards, Jim

[Durham Lady]

Field of Mars is part of the Rookwood Cemetery. At one time you could search their records online and get plot numbers but that facility has been removed :(

http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/

[Mary from Italy]

The Field of Mars cemetery is searchable here, but it's in Ryde:

http://northerncemeteries.com.au/field-of-mars/

[Mary from Italy]

If only James and Caroline's certificate had the same in depth detail.

I have the actual marriage certificate and the marriage took place at either "Clare" Farm or "Clear" Farm Pitt Town (near Windsor, NSW). The minister G. Macfie? of the Presbyterian Church.



Do you mean you have the original cert issued in 1856, or a modern copy from the BDM Registry?

The Registry's records are often incomplete for such early dates, so if you don't have the original cert it can be worth getting hold of details from the original church registers. I've done this a couple of times, and it's given me parents' names and spouses' birthplaces that weren't on the modern cert.

Presbyterian records would now be held by the Uniting Church, who I've found very helpful. They do charge for information, but you could try asking them if they have the original records, and if so, whether the birthplace and/or parents' names are specified, before deciding whether to pay their charge.

You can contact them at: [email protected]

There's some information about the church and Rev. Macfie here:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/85955019

[Mary from Italy]

The 1847 death isn't your man; it relates to a James Shepherd of Kissing Point, who died aged 85.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12897331?searchTerm=%22james%20shepherd%22&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales%7C%7C%7Csortby=dateAsc%7C%7C %7Cl-decade=184%7C%7C%7Cl-year=1847

[Mary from Italy]

Presumably James had a wife back in England who died between 1841 (when permission to marry Phoebe was refused) and 1845 (when it was granted)?

[Smooth]

Field of Mars is part of the Rookwood Cemetery. At one time you could search their records online and get plot numbers but that facility has been removed :(

http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/

Thank you Daphne, it was Ryde that I had looked up. I have many late relatives in Rookwood cemetery.

Do you mean you have the original cert issued in 1856, or a modern copy from the BDM Registry?

The Registry's records are often incomplete for such early dates, so if you don't have the original cert it can be worth getting hold of details from the original church registers. I've done this a couple of times, and it's given me parents' names and spouses' birthplaces that weren't on the modern cert.

Presbyterian records would now be held by the Uniting Church, who I've found very helpful. They do charge for information, but you could try asking them if they have the original records, and if so, whether the birthplace and/or parents' names are specified, before deciding whether to pay their charge.

You can contact them at: [email protected]

There's some information about the church and Rev. Macfie here:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/85955019

Oh OK, sorry. Yes I only have the BDM version for James and Caroline. I have the church records for her parents and her brother Thomas. Which does show more/better information. So thank you I will look further into this with fingers crossed.

The 1847 death isn't your man; it relates to a James Shepherd of Kissing Point, who died aged 85.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12897331?searchTerm=%22james%20shepherd%22&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales%7C%7C%7Csortby=dateAsc%7C%7C %7Cl-decade=184%7C%7C%7Cl-year=1847

That is good news (well not for the Kissing Point James Shepherd) but for my search!

Presumably James had a wife back in England who died between 1841 (when permission to marry Phoebe was refused) and 1845 (when it was granted)?

I don't know what would have made the change in decision. Maybe you're right? After watching the series "Banished" seems there were "other" ways also.

Extremely helpful ladies and I appreciate it.

Regards, Jim

[kiterunner]

I don't know what would have made the change in decision. Maybe you're right? After watching the series "Banished" seems there were "other" ways also.


I didn't see "Banished", but I did hear that it was not particularly accurate historically. But I was reading part of a book about the history of marriage and divorce on Google books yesterday, and it did say that it was quite common for the wives who were left back home to be allowed to remarry after seven years or more, and that some of the married transportees did end up remarrying despite leaving a wife back home, so I think it could just be that the second time he applied, it was granted just because of the number of years since he was transported. But I don't know much about the subject.

[Smooth]

I didn't see "Banished", but I did hear that it was not particularly accurate historically. But I was reading part of a book about the history of marriage and divorce on Google books yesterday, and it did say that it was quite common for the wives who were left back home to be allowed to remarry after seven years or more, and that some of the married transportees did end up remarrying despite leaving a wife back home, so I think it could just be that the second time he applied, it was granted just because of the number of years since he was transported. But I don't know much about the subject.

I watched the DVD extras where it was said it was based on heavily researched fact but not necessarily fact to the actual convict portrayed. Whom were based on actual real people.

None the less, if James Shepherd was to leave wife Phoebe (or vise-versa) you would think getting married again would have had some hurdles? Just not sure how lose things were in those days?

He still seems the only James Shepherd who fits the puzzle. Just not sure I'm playing with all the pieces....

Regards, Jim

[kiterunner]

But Phoebe died before the marriage to Caroline, so I don't see how that would be a problem. The question was whether his wife back in England would have to have died before he could marry Phoebe, wasn't it?

[Smooth]

Do you mean you have the original cert issued in 1856, or a modern copy from the BDM Registry?

The Registry's records are often incomplete for such early dates, so if you don't have the original cert it can be worth getting hold of details from the original church registers. I've done this a couple of times, and it's given me parents' names and spouses' birthplaces that weren't on the modern cert.

Presbyterian records would now be held by the Uniting Church, who I've found very helpful. They do charge for information, but you could try asking them if they have the original records, and if so, whether the birthplace and/or parents' names are specified, before deciding whether to pay their charge.

You can contact them at: [email protected]

There's some information about the church and Rev. Macfie here:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/85955019

Here is the reply from the Uniting Church:

Dear Jim,

The earliest marriage record we hold for Pitt Town Presbyterian is 1906. The earliest marriage record we hold for Ebenezer is 1958.

You may like to contact the Presbyterian Church Archives in the hope they may be able to assist you. Their email address is [email protected].



Kind regards

Here is the reply from the Presbyterian Church:

Good afternoon,

We are unable to assist with this matter as we hold no original registers for Rev. George Macfie whatsoever. We have no knowledge of the whereabouts of his registers and it is quite possible that they were lost in the floods on the Hawkesbury in 1866/67.

Best wishes for success with your family history,

Research Officer

Bummer :(

But Phoebe died before the marriage to Caroline, so I don't see how that would be a problem. The question was whether his wife back in England would have to have died before he could marry Phoebe, wasn't it?

Yes, very true. More research needed.

Thank you for the replies.

Regards, Jim

[Mary from Italy]

What a shame about the Pitt Town records!

[Smooth]

Anyone know how I would go about either reading or getting a copy of the trial papers for this James Shepherd? All in the hope it gives up a home address or other pertinent information.

Regards, Jim

[Mary from Italy]

You could try an e-mail to the local Record Office, but there's no guarantee they will have survived.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I visited the Library at Windsor a few years back and they had a large FH section including microfilm of registers. Have you had any contact with them? Julie
PS My husband was a descendant of Greentree/Cohen. Catherine's father, James Cohen, was actually the convict Cornelius Cowen. So many family's tried to hide their convict past because of the stigma attached in the early days. There is a librarian who may be able guide you as to whether they hold records you want. Her email contact is [email protected]

[kiterunner]

Jim, Findmypast are offering free access this weekend (18th to 21st Sep). You need to register for an account if you don't have one, but you won't need to give them payment details.

Info on here:
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/freeweekend