View Full Version : Holden Family of Darwen/Blackburn Lancs
Hi - am looking for information about the Holden family from Blackburn/Darwen area. My father Roger Holden lived at Noble Street as a lad and at Cobden Street with his wife Margery and daughter aged 2. He worked at India Mill. They emigrated to New Zealand in 1954. All I know to date is my father had 2 brothers, Philip and Edward. One sister called Mary E, married to a Bennett. My fathers father was Edward married to an Ann Winifrid Hefferen (???) and was a cotton mill fireman. He died approx 1939(?) they married about 1913 and her name is listed as Hepperan(?). Would be wonderful if anyone has info about this elusive side of my family. Mum and Dad have both passed away and sadly so have their stories. Many Thanks
Olde Crone
14-07-15, 19:56
Hello Luloo and welcome to the forum.
The information you seek is too recent for my own research - I rarely research forward from about 1920 - but I will send you a pm (private message) with a link to a Darwen FH forum. Someone on there may know of your family. the forum is not a busy one so you may have to wait a few days for a response!
OC
Thank you very much. I'm working on Edwards birth date possibly around 1883 and Ann Hefferen about 1892.
Olde Crone
14-07-15, 20:46
I've sent you a pm.
I have found five children to the marriage.
1913 WA, mmn Heffearn
1916 ME mmn Heffren married Bennett 1942
1919 E mmn Hefferen
1922 P mmn Hefferson
1926 R mmn Hefferen.
I can't locate a birth for Ann Hefferen and I can't single out a birth for Edward. I think you will have to get the marriage cert for their father's names otherwise it's just a guessing game. However, both Edward and Ann should be on the 1911 - Ann will be easier to find I think!
OC
Welcome to the forum, Luloo,
Ann Hefferen/ran etc sounds like an Irish name.
You will definitely need to purchase a copy of the 1913 marriage cert to establish more about this couple. The certificate will give their father's names and occupations, which should help trace them at an earlier date.
You can order a copy of the certificate through Lancs BMD:
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/cgi/marrind.cgi?county=lancashire
Olde Crone
14-07-15, 21:35
Hold fire for a little whi;e though, as someone on the Darwen forum has access to St John registers (or did have)
OC
Thank you both for your help. I think your suggestions of getting their marriage cert is the best way to get beyond this bump in the road. Hopefully I'll get some more names to search by. The dates for their children look really good and I can just remember some of their spouses names so that should marry them up nicely. Once again, thanks (it's a long way from New Zealand to try and get info so your help is very much appreciated)
Hold fire for a little whi;e though, as someone on the Darwen forum has access to St John registers (or did have)
OC
Okay
Did you send the pm? I may have missed it as I am still trying to navigate myself around this site, sorry !! (oh dear!!)
kiterunner
14-07-15, 22:09
There is a death registration for Ann W Holden Apr-Jun 1959 in Farnworth registration district, Townleys sub-district, age 73.
There are too many possible death registrations for Edward!
kiterunner
14-07-15, 22:10
Did you send the pm? I may have missed it as I am still trying to navigate myself around this site, sorry !! (oh dear!!)
Maybe OC meant the Visitor Message that she posted on your profile?
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/member.php?u=12070
kiterunner
14-07-15, 22:20
Also we should be aware of your similar thread on RootsChat:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=725501.0
Please post the details of the marriage cert on this thread when you have it and we will help you work out where to go next!
Yes I think this is the case, I'll check it again
Yes thank you for that. It was from this original query that I was directed to search here and particularly because of OC Holden.
Olde Crone
14-07-15, 23:38
Oh durh, I'm always doing that, posting a visitor message instead of a pm. So sorry! Have you got the link now?
OC
Olde Crone
15-07-15, 09:20
I posted a message on that site just in case you can't get in.
OC
Thanks very much for doing that. I sent them an email requesting entry so hopefully will hear something soon.
Olde Crone
15-07-15, 21:59
Two replies, neither can help, one has just finished looking at the register but isn't going back to the RO, the other only has access up to 1900, so maybe you will have to get the marriage cert after all, sorry about that.
However, once you get back before 1900, I have a large Darwen tree and the Darwen site also has a large (but different!) tree, so between us we ought to be able to help you.
OC
kiterunner
15-07-15, 22:40
There is a Walter Holden / Ellen Heffron marriage in 1914 in Blackburn who may or may not be related to your family. But it does mean that any Holden / Hefferen (various spelling) birth registrations (other than those that you know belong to your family) could be children of this couple rather than of Edward and Ann.
Thank you :) I think getting their marriage cert is the best way to go. Once I can find out who the illusive duo are, I'll be in touch. So exciting !!
Ooooo thanks for that, I'll do some digging and see what comes up...
Olde Crone
16-07-15, 10:09
Kate's information post #23 brings up another birth
1915 M mmn EFFERON Blackburn South Western district which looks very likely to be a birth to this couple. All the others are born Darwen.
I can't see any more births in the wider Blackburn district and can't define any deaths/remarriages for Walter/Ellen. It does seem very likely the two couples are related.
OC
I have managed to track down some information on Edward Holden through his military service. He was married to Ann Winifred Hefferon on 24 May 1913 and their daughter Winifred Alice was born on 16 October 1913. It looks as if Edwards birthdate is 20 April 1891. He signed up May 1915 Territorial Force 4th (2nd Res) Batt, East Lancashire Regiment and then transferred to the 126th Machine Gunners Corp. He was taken POW in Beugny France in April 1918. If any of this information rings some bells with people I would be grateful for any further information. I've had a look at the 1911 census and think I can place him but I still need more proof. So pleased to have got this far, thanks so much for the ideas :)
Ooohhhh ALSO.... the witnesses to their marriage were R Holden and S Holden and it looks like 3 Malta/Radford Street in Darwen was where they were living during the war.
Looks like this could be a connection. I've slotted it into the family tree along with the 1915 birth that OC noted. Looks like the connection is getting closer.....
kiterunner
18-07-15, 09:26
Does the marriage certificate give the names and occupations of Edward's and Ann's fathers, Luloo? And did you find his military records online, or did your family already have them, or what? Do you have his regimental number(s)?
kiterunner
18-07-15, 09:27
Ooohhhh ALSO.... the witnesses to their marriage were R Holden and S Holden and it looks like 3 Malta/Radford Street in Darwen was where they were living during the war.
Is this Edward and Ann's marriage, or Walter and Ellen's?
Found another piece of military paperwork that places Edward living at 4 Noble Street, Darwen, so this is def my granddad as this is the address noted on my dads birth cert.
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 09:32
Luloo
Does his marriage record not give the name of his father?
There is only one birth for an Edward Holden in Darwen in 1891 and that gives his mother's maiden name as Woodcock.
27 October 1872 St John the Evangelist Darwen
Edward Holden (20) bachelor, labourer of Hollins
Alice Woodcock 21 spinster weaver of Ashton St
Father ROGER Holden labourer
William Woodcock Engine tenter
Married by superintendant registrar's cert.
Children of that marriage:
1872 William Edward
1874 Robert
1875 Mary Hannah
1879 Andrew
1881 Jane Ellen
1883 Richard
1886 Martha Alice
1889 Sarah Alice
1891 Edward
1894 Betsy
All born Darwen all mmn Woodcock.
This is sketch work and needs proving with certificates! Starting with Edward's birth 1891.
OC
I found the military records online. Spoke to my brother who mentioned that he thought granded was in ww1 - WHAT!!! this came as a complete surprise to me!!!! Went digging and found them - as each piece came online it seemed to be right and then WHAM!! ... his wife stated as A Holden and living at Noble Street. His reg number is 39721
Sorry - the Malta/Radford street is Edward and Ann early on. Apologies for my confusion.
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 09:46
Even sketchier is this:
(Witnesses at marriage of Edward Holden and Alice Woodcock were Wm Thomas Haworth and Jane Haworth)
So - a posible maybe!
25 December 1839 St Mary Blackburn
ROGER Holden (x) minor bach carter Lower Darwn
Mary HAWORTH (x) full spinster weaver of Lower Darwen.
No father given for Roger (! a true Holden!)
Mary's father is John Haworth a weaver.
Professional witnesses.
OC
Wow - how do you do this so fast?? I'll check this one out to see if it fits, and the other possible. The more I look at these military papers the more it seems that Edward was a Blackburn boy.....they take some reading but are very interesting...
No father given for Roger (! a true Holden!).
OC
Haha - that's funny (and true !!!!)
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 10:02
If you think Edward was a Blackburn boy then you MUST get his birth cert to find the name of his parents. There IS an Edward Holden born in 1891 in Blackburn, his mother's maiden name is Taylor and I cannot identify a marriage.
(I can't find a Walter Holden with mmn Woodcock or Taylor so it may be he is a cousin or other relative - or no relative at all)
OC
I'll do some more digging through the army records and check on the other possible connections tomorrow. Thanks for your help tonight - its bed time for me (military records being book of choice haha)
kiterunner
18-07-15, 10:18
So this is Edward Holden's service record on ancestry:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1219/30837_155119-00862/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1219&iid=30837_155119-00862&fn=Edward&ln=Holden&st=d&ssrc=&pid=953609
The "descriptive return" where he was asking to be transferred to the Machine Gun Corps is dated 29 Sep 1916 and gives his age as 25 years 120 days, born Darwen, married, occupation miner. His previous army no was 3708.
On the Conduct Sheet dated 7 May 1915, his age is 24 years 0 months, occupation collier, religion Primitive Methodist.
kiterunner
18-07-15, 10:23
And I assume your information about his marriage to Ann comes from his army records, not the marriage certificate yet, so their parents' names are not given but the witnesses' names are:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1219/30837_155119-00862/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=1219&iid=30837_155119-00862&fn=Edward&ln=Holden&st=d&ssrc=&pid=953609#?imageId=30837_155119-00879
kiterunner
18-07-15, 10:51
So this looks likely to be your Edward on the 1911 census, but you need his father's details from the marriage cert to confirm it:
1911 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_25164_0335_03/?htx=View&r=5538&dbid=2352&iid=rg14_25164_0335_03&fn=Edward&ln=Holden&st=d&ssrc=&pid=25778671)
1 Highfield St, Darwen, Lancashire
Edward Holden Sen Head 57 Widower Stoker Lancashire Darwen
Edward Holden Jun Son 19 Single Coal Miner Hewer Lancashire Darwen
Sarah Alice Kershaw Boarder 21 Married 1 year, 1 child, 1 living, Weaver Lancashire Darwen
John Kershaw Boarder 25 Married Coal Miner Lancashire Darwen
Bessy Kershaw Daughter Under 1 Month Lancashire Darwen
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 10:54
Kate
Sarah Alice Kershaw is Edward senior's daughter I think - Sarah Alice Holden b 1889, mmn Woodcock.
OC
I seem to recall you were looking for a death reg for Edward in 1939, but the one you found is now not a good fit for age. There's this one which seems possible:
Name: Edward Holden
Birth Date: abt 1891
Date of Registration: Jun 1940
Age at Death: 49
Registration district: Darwen
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8e
Page: 870
If you think Edward was a Blackburn boy then you MUST get his birth cert to find the name of his parents. There IS an Edward Holden born in 1891 in Blackburn, his mother's maiden name is Taylor and I cannot identify a marriage.
OC
But isn't Edward the son of Alice Woodcock? (at least, the Edward Kate found in 1911 as the most likely suspect, was the son of Alice)
kiterunner
18-07-15, 15:41
Merry, I think OC was referring to post #37 where Luloo says that the more she reads the military papers, the more it seems that Edward was a "Blackburn boy". This could be taken to mean Blackburn as opposed to Darwen, but given that the military papers give his place of birth as Darwen, I think Luloo probably just meant the Blackburn area including Darwen.
(If she meant "Blackburn as opposed to Darwen", then his birth would likely be the Blackburn one with MMN Taylor instead of the Darwen one with MMN Woodcock. But I didn't see anything in the military papers to suggest this.)
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 15:43
Merry
There IS an Edward, son of Alice Woodcock as I listed overleaf and that all traces back to *Ralph Holden of the unknown father. That Edward was born 1891 in Darwen mmn Woodcock (Lancsbmd).
but Luloo says she now thinks her Edward was a Blackburn boy and there is another Edward Holden born 1891, this time in Blackburn, mmn Taylor (Lancsbmd) so she really does need to sort out which birth was her Edward, the Blackburn one or the Darwen one.
Hooe that makes sense!
OC
*Correction - Ralph Holden should read ROGER Holden of the unknown father, sorry.
So it's back to buying the marriage cert for Edward then. The father of the "Blackburn boy" is Ralph Aloysius Holden, so at least the two likely father's have completely different names!
The army records for Edward give his occ as coal miner and place of birth as Darwen, which matches Edward son of Edward on the census. Edward son of Ralph A was a butcher and was born in Blacckburn.
Even sketchier is this:
(Witnesses at marriage of Edward Holden and Alice Woodcock were Wm Thomas Haworth and Jane Haworth)
So - a posible maybe!
25 December 1839 St Mary Blackburn
ROGER Holden (x) minor bach carter Lower Darwn
Mary HAWORTH (x) full spinster weaver of Lower Darwen.
No father given for Roger (! a true Holden!)
Mary's father is John Haworth a weaver.
Professional witnesses.
OC
I couldn't see a bap for Roger, but he does have his great aunt, widow Martha Townley staying with him in 1851. Martha Townley, nee Holden was the dau of John and Margaret Holden of Lower Darwen, so hopefully they are Roger's great-grandparents. Just a bit to fill in in between!
Baptism: 19 Mar 1775 St Mary the Virgin, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Martha Holden - Daughter of John Holden & Margaret
Abode: Lower Darwen
Register: Baptisms 1773 - 1791, Page 17, Entry 45
Source: LDS Film 1278778
Marriage: 31 Oct 1819 St Mary the Virgin, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Andrew Townley - Farmer, Widower, Blackburn
Martha Holden - (X), Spinster, Blackburn
Witness: Mich'l Townley; James Radcliffe
Married by Banns by: R. Dobson
Register: Marriages 1819 - 1821, Page 72, Entry 214
Source: LDS Film 1278807
Unsurprisingly, no children from this marriage.
In 1851 Roger also has his brother in law Edward Howarth (24, Lower Darwen) and his wife, Margaret, staying with him.
There's two versions of a baptism on Ancestry for Roger Holden. One seems to say he is the son of Mary Holden and the other looks more like James and Mary Holden. The one with two parents seems to show him as "B" though, so Base born? A bit confusing! The date is 7 Jan 1821 at St Pauls Blackburn.
Good Morning :) have just read all of your research comments and my goodness you have all been very, very busy and extremely helpful. Am going to sit down today and log all this info and then compare. After a quick read I think somewhere in all of this you've found him - just need to clarify who's who. Thanks so much for your help.
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 21:56
If the Andrew Townley one is correct, I can take the Townleys back another few generations on my tree.
The 1821 baptism on LAN-OPC gives both parents. Nothing about base born. Why would he not therefore give his father's name at marriage? Although, St Mary Blackburn isn't the best at recording the fine detail and it may just have been missed off his marriage record.
OC
The first version of the baptism reads:
1821 January 7th Roger son of Mary Holden Low Darwen Nov 24th 1820 (<< that's the dob)
The other version:
7 Roger "B" of James Mary Holden LD Nov 24th
There's no "and" between James and Mary. There are a few other illegitimate children baptised on the same page and they say son or dau of - No "B".
Olde Crone
18-07-15, 22:20
In other words, the usual Holden mess and uncertainty.
OC
Right'o then..... Am leaning more towards the Alice Woodcock/Edward Holden line. Am going to order Edward and Ann Winifred's marriage cert today to confirm.
A lot of the names seem to fit (witnesses at marriage R & S Holden, these fit with Edwards bro/sis). My Edwards occ is listed as collier/miner in his army papers and his first born is a Winifrid Alice. His daughter Mary Ethal born 1916 fits in with him being home on leave 9 months earlier (haha) and my dad had a sister Mary Ethal (who I now believe to be the one and same (we called her Aunty bet, only met her once) and she was married to a Derrick Bennett from Taunton and that all fits in.
THE MARIAGE CERT will tell all - well am hoping and praying it will.
The father of the Edward/Alice Woodcock marriage is stated as Roger Holden and of course this is my dads name.....
.....and of course I can just hear him saying "e lass what a right t'do' ??
" I think Luloo probably just meant the Blackburn area including Darwen. "
Yes - this is what I meant (thank you) and sorry if I confused you...
I wonder who gave parental consent for the marriage of Roger Holden (minor) to Mary Haworth (full age) on Christmas Day 1839? Pity the witnesses (serial) seem to give no clue.
Olde Crone
19-07-15, 19:44
Merry
I don't know who gave permission but I have noted in the past that permission is not mentioned on a lot of Blackburn Cathedral marriages. Perhaps they bypassed parental permission when the bride was pregnant?
Xmas Day marriages were free of course, perhaps that blurred the proprieties a bit?
OC
Yes, probably!
I still can't think what that "B" stands for alongside Roger's baptism. I've gone through a few pages of entries and its the only one.
I can't believe how many Holdens there are in Darwen! Surely it's pretty impossible to separate them out?!!
Olde Crone
19-07-15, 21:30
Um, B for Base I imagine.
Yes, the Holdens of Darwen are a tangled lot but it is easier to sort them out than you might imagine (well, most of them). Nearly all are descendants of famous Timothy!
OC
Don't mention Timothy!
The B is in the entry apparently saying the parents are James and Mary. None of the baptisms for children with only a mother listed have the B.
Olde Crone
19-07-15, 22:03
I wonder....this is a bit far fetched.....
You say there are two different versions of the baptism. I wonder if one was from/for the BTs and included the father's name in case the child became a burden to the parish?
So "B" = for the Bishop's information. Hmmm. Why not just put putative father or something.
OC
The entry that seems to say James and Mary Holden shows as:
Register Type: Parish Registers
Reference Number: PR 3340/1/21
and the other one:
Register Type: Parish Registers
Reference Number: PR 3340/1/1
If no one else can look at them I'll post them up later, but I can't do it on this device.
kiterunner
20-07-15, 09:37
This is the possible B:
kiterunner
20-07-15, 09:38
It could be So for Son and they didn't put in the n?
Olde Crone
20-07-15, 22:10
It really isn't clear, is it - B or S/O.
As he didn't give a father at marriage, I'm not convinced it was a James Holden!
OC
Still waiting on the marriage cert from UK - about a 3 to 4 week delivery time so getting closer........anticipation is mounting.......
lol! I hope it arrives sooner than you think :)
Fabulous news - it has arrived .....(was so exciting to open the envelope haha)
Marriage between Edward Holden (22, Bachelor, Miner, 3 Malta Street Darwen) and Ann Winifred Hepperan (21, spinster, warper, 4 Noble Street Darwen) on May 24 1913. Edward's father is Edward Holden (no occupation) and Ann's father is John Hepperan (miner). Married at St John the Evangelist Church in Darwen.
Witnesses to marriage are: Richard Holden and Sophia Holden (Richard's wife perhaps???)
Would I be too hasty do you think in adding the previous details regarding the Edward Holden/Alice Woodcock information to my tree ????? Do I need to dig further ??? Any help appreciated :)
Yeh! Great news.
The marriage witness, Richard, would appear to be Edward jr's brother who appears with the family in 1891 and 1901, born about 1883. According to the 1911 census at that date he has been married to Sophia for one year and had one child, James Edward Holden aged under one month.
This looks like their marriage:
Marriages Mar 1910
BROWN David Blackburn 8e 821
HOLDEN Richard Blackburn 8e 821 <<<<<<<<<<<<
LOWE Sophia Blackburn 8e 821 <<<<<<<<<<<
Marsden Maud Blackburn 8e 821
It took place at Darwen, United Reformed Church, according to Lancs BMD.
Richard's baptism is on Ancestry, giving his dob as 5 Jun 1883 (bap in 1885), parents Edward and Alice.
Fantastic - thanks for the information. I wondered if 'Sophia' was Richard's wife. Looks like she was thanks to your discovery and that helps to confirm the details in the marriage cert too. It certainly looks like the pieces of the jigsaw are beginning to fall into place. It is wonderful to finally be able to 'find' my fathers family after so many years.
Ann and her mother Mary and sister Ethelreda are in Darwen in 1911. (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_25157_0245_03/21872501?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26so%3d2%26pcat%3 dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dann*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhef*%26gsln_x%3d 1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3ddarwen%26gskw_x%3d1% 26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket %3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
These look like their baptisms (there are several other siblings)
Name: Anna Hefferan
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 9 Nov 1892
Baptism Place: Wath-upon-Dearne, York, England
Father: Joannes Hefferan
Mother: Maria Devine Hefferan
FHL Film Number: 1942372
Reference ID: Fr 236
Name: Ethelreda Heffran
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 21 Apr 1892
Baptism Place: Wath-upon-Dearne, York, England
Father: Joannis Heffran
Mother: Mariae Devine Heffran
FHL Film Number: 1942372
Reference ID: Fr 234
Ann's parent's marriage:
Marriages Jun 1884
DEVINE Mary Rotherham 9c 841 <<<<<<<<
Heffrin John Rotherham 9c 841 <<<<<<<<<<<
Thompson Emily Rotherham 9c 841
Young Thomas Rotherham 9c 841
kiterunner
18-08-15, 09:22
And this must be Ann Winifred's family:
1891 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/WRYRG12_3853_3855-0304/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=6598&iid=WRYRG12_3853_3855-0304&fn=Mary&ln=Hefferen&st=d&ssrc=&pid=6676182)
3 West Street, Wath upon Dearne, Yorkshire
John Hefferen Head M 34 Coal Miner Claycross, Derby
Mary Do Wife M 29 Barnsley, Yorks
Ellen Do Daur S 6 Scholar Wath O D Do
Winnifred Do Daur S 5 Do Do Do
Ethel Do Daur S 3 Do Do
Francis Do Son S 10 mo Do Do
1901 census (not found Ann on this one yet):
1901 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LANRG13_3920_3922-1028/?backlabel=ReturnBrowsing&dbid=7814&iid=LANRG13_3920_3922-1028&pid=25175339&ssrc=&fn=Mary&ln=Hefferen&st=g)
20 Radford St, Darwen, Lancs
Mary Hefferen Head M 39 Cotton Winder Yorks Barnsley
Mary Devine Mother Wid 65 Ireland
1911 census:
1911 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_25157_0245_03/21872500?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3deth elreda%2b%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dhef*n%26gsln_x%3d1 %26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ft p_x%3d1%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1% 26msmns_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssn s0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26 pcat%3d1911UKI%26h%3d21872500%26db%3d1911England%2 6indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
3 Noble St, Darwen, Lancs
Mary Hefferon Head 49 Married 27 yrs, 8 children, 3 living, 5 died, Charwoman, Barnsley Yorks
Ethelreda Do Dau 22 Single Cotton Mill Worker Wath upon Dearne, Yorks
Ann Do Do 19 " " " "
edit - Merry and I both posted at the same time!
Oh my goodness - you wonderful, wonderful people....I am so thankful for the amount of information that you've been able to supply.
kiterunner
18-08-15, 10:02
John Heffren was sentenced to 7 days hard labour in Wakefield prison or a fine for "Drunk &c" in Nov 1901:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5085/41238_1831109388_2395-00039/216915?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3djohn%26g sln%3dhef*n%26MSAV%3d1%26msbdy%3d1857%26msbpn__ftp %3dClay%2bCross%252c%2bDerbyshire%252c%2bEngland%2 6msbpn%3d1660522%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5260%257c1660522%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26catbucket%3drstp%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3d 216915%26recoff%3d8%2b9%26db%3dWestYorkPrison%26in div%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d4&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Olde Crone
18-08-15, 11:13
Luloo
I can pad out your tree a bit with Hawoods and Howarths if you ever want to go sideways, just say on here. I won't post the information yet, give you time to absorb what has already been found for you.
OC
1901 census (not found Ann on this one yet)
I think I did (on phone at the mo) she was aged 9 and a visitor (I think) in a household in Bradford.
kiterunner
18-08-15, 13:31
And she is a boarder, not a visitor:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/YRKRG13_4309_4312-1042/?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=7814&iid=YRKRG13_4309_4312-1042&fn=Annie&ln=Hefferam&st=d&ssrc=&pid=27493601
That's why I said 'I think'!! Thanks.
I can pad out your tree a bit with Hawoods and Howarths
Old Crone Yes Please - I would appreciate that very much thank you.
Thank you both Merry and Kiterunner for the extra information about Annie's whereabouts...
Olde Crone
19-08-15, 09:24
I have found another child for Edward and Alice (#post 33) - Roger born 1877. I missed him first time round because his mother's maiden name is spelled Wood coK!
Edward Holden was born 24 April 1891 and baptised 20 May 1891 at St John Darwen, parents Edward and Alice of 28 Ashton St. Father is a labourer. I see that the birth date differs from the service record by 4 days but I think that is probably a clerical error.
All Edward's siblings were also baptised - you can pick up the baptisms on LAN-OPC.
OC
Olde Crone
19-08-15, 11:34
Ah, identified Walter Holden! He is Edward's first cousin and they share grandparents Roger Holden and Mary Haworth.
NowWalter's father Robert has a peculiar middle name which is never spelled the same way twice. It appears as Sibbring, Sebrin, Sebron, Sebberan etc. Is it too fanciful to imagine this is a mangled attempt at Hefferan? This would mean the Hefferon connection was much earlier than 1913.
OC
Olde Crone
20-08-15, 17:11
A few random observations, should you wish to take this tree back further.
Roger and Andrew are both "old" Holden names. Both came into the Holden family centuries ago through dynastic marriages with the Towneley family. Roger is mostly found on the Roman Catholic side of the family, or in the descendants of that branch and there is a good old cluster of Rogers in Catleach and surrounding areas, where the Holdens were able to practise the old religion under the safety of the Stoneyhurst college. these Holdens were rather odd - I'll tell you about their oddity when you are a bit stronger, lol, don't want to frighten you off.
Andrew is a name which went down the protestant side of the family (Holdens of Toad Hall) who were officially protestant but secretly Catholic! Three Andrews (Grandfather, father and son) were mapmakers in the 16-and 1700s, but I think the mapmaking was restricted to making maps of the estates of which they were stewards.
Roger Holden and Mary Haworth named their first son John Yates Holden. I wonder why. Yates would have been significant to them.
Roger's mother, Mary Holden, named him Roger. I wonder why. Who was she trying to flatter? Her father?
OC
Olde Crone
20-08-15, 17:49
Answered one of my own questions.
Mary HAWORTH b 19 May 1819 bp 20 June 1819
d/o JOHN YATES and Jane Haworth
St Paul Blackburn.
OC
Olde Crone - thanks for the recent information posts. I too am wondering about the Seberin/Sibring name, surely it must be a 'family' name that is being passed down. But it does seem rather strange that there are so many variants of the spelling (which is correct???). Mind you the 'Hefferan/Hepperan/Heffren' name on my Gmothers side is just as baffling. Not sure if there is a connection between the two......
Your post about Roger/Andrew is fascinating (especially the 'oddity' remark). You can't keep me in suspense for ever hahahaha !!!! Am going to spend the day looking up information on Stoneyhurst College and the Towneley family.
I saw the John Yates name and wondered about the Yates part too......
Thanks so much for such interesting information. It's such a joy to be able to finally start researching this side of my family. My father Roger died 30 years ago and what a shame that its taken us this long to begin the search. We are all in our 50's and 60's now - better late than never huh :)
these Holdens were rather odd - I'll tell you about their oddity when you are a bit stronger, lol, don't want to frighten you off.
I think I know but you can never be sure with these Holden's of OC.
Do tell OC. I'd love to hear the story again. ;)
Olde Crone
21-08-15, 11:29
After a great deal of head scratching and pencil-sucking, I have realised that the info I posted above (#91) actually means "child of John Yates Haworth and Jane" and she is not illegitimate! there are three generations of john Yates Haworth, going back to marriage between a Haworth and a Yates. (I'm putting all this info on my Darwen tree).
The odd bods are a branch of the Holden family (first born male is always a Roger) who kept the severed head of a martyred Catholic priest (a Holden) in a wooden chest and passed it down the family in great secrecy till about 1900 when they finally handed it over to the local RC church. Google "the chaigley skull" for more info.
OC
Haha - what a wonderful story...I shall enjoy reading about this skull and the odd bods attached (not literally haha) to it.
I can see the link regarding the 'yates' name (1796 John Yates Haworth's mother was Margaret Yates), so they must be bringing that name down the line. Does this sound right to you OC??
Olde Crone
21-08-15, 23:03
Yes, the Yates middle name comes from Margaret Yates. I cannot work out which Margaret Yates she might be though, as there were dozens of them in Darwen (Yate Bank, to be precise!).
OC
Now here's a thing.....looking for any insight regarding the following....
Roger Holden b1820 - Mary Haworth b1819 have the following children:
John Yates 1841
Andrew 1844
James 1847
Robert Sibbren 1849
Mary Jane 1851
Edward 1854 (my line)
Sarah 1857
Margaret Ann 1859
Roger 1861
have noted them on 1861 census. Looking at the 1871 census I see there is a Thomas aged 24 paper maker. I cant seem to find any information that says that he is actually their son. It would make James his twin. Does it look like Thomas to you???? Any help appreciated please....
Well, the name does say Thomas ,aged 24, son, on the 1871 census, but I wouldn't assume from that that James has a twin! More likely the entry is for James (the enumerator may have been reading another person's handwriting when he completed the census entries. A capital T and J can look similar and both names end in S so you can see how a mistake could easily come about) . When dealing with a common surname it's important to cross-ref as many different types of entry as possible to make the facts you end up with as accurate as you can.
In this case I would cross ref what you can find about baptisms for the children with the birth registrations on Lancs BMD (as you can use mother's maiden name to help restrict your search and also remember the births should all be in Darwen sub-district). I just had a very quick look and there's a James but no Thomas at the right timeframe.
Thanks Merry - I'll go dig a bit more (think you're right about it being James though) :)
Olde Crone
24-08-15, 17:20
Luloo
I didn't find a Thomas when I was looking for this family and I agree with Merry that James and Thomas often look the same. Remember that the 1871 census you are looking at is a copy of the household schedule and the person who copied it could have easily confused the names James and Thomas.
OC
Ah thanks for that - with the info from yourself and Merry I am happy to add this census to James then. Nothing like a beginner huh! I want to make sure that I'm heading in the right direction (and more so seeing how there are a million and one Holdens - huh!! I thought there was only my lot lol) so any help/advice/info is so gladly/appreciatively and happily accepted.
Paging Old Crone :)
Hi Old Crone, have been busy working on my Holden tree and have been having a great time doing it too - you mentioned awhile ago that when I was ready.....
I can pad out your tree a bit with Hawoods and Howarths if you ever want to go sideways, just say on here. I won't post the information yet, give you time to absorb what has already been found for you.
....I wondered if you would be kind enough to 'pad' out my tree with the info you have.
Kind Regards and Many Thanks
Olde Crone
26-09-15, 09:23
Luloo
Yes, happy to, although it won't be for a couple of days probably, I'm out and about for the next few days.
OC
EDIT - forgot to ask, how far back have you gone with the Hawoods/Howarths etc.
Hi Old Crone
Thanks for your reply. I think that I've got the wrong names - sorry, silly me!
I've got John HAWORTH b1760 on my tree not Hawood or Howarth. He married Margaret Yates b1760 and had John Yates b1796 who had Mary b1819 and it was this Mary who married into the Holden line - Roger Holden b1820.
Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Olde Crone
26-09-15, 22:49
Haworth/Howarth are interchangeable, at least in Darwen, lol.
OC
Oh that's good - don't feel so silly now !!!
So as above John Haworth b1760 m Margaret Yates b1760 is the furtherest back I've got. Unable to confirm parents for John - this is my stumbling block to date.
Thanks OC - you're a star :)
(edit to correct spelling)
HARWOODS connection is...
William Harwood b1719 m1740 Hannah Walmsley b? (and this is as far as I've got with the Harwoods).
Olde Crone
30-09-15, 21:31
Luloo
So sorry it has taken me so long to get onto this. I've had an unusually busy few days!
You seem to have got to the same place as I have, getting stuck on John Haworth and Margaret Yates, also William Harwood and Hannah Walmsley. I don't think Jeremy Hunt "did" either the Yates families of Darwen or the Haworth/Howarths, so it is really just going to be luck, or finding someone who is a direct descendant and knows the family history.
I haven't done much serious work on the Darwen tree for a good few years now, so I'll have a scout around to see if there is any new info...although I'm sure you would have already found it if there was!
OC
Olde Crone
01-10-15, 12:14
Luloo
I found my Jeremy Hunt CD (it was in the CD reader where I must have left it some years ago!).
He did a very short chapter on the Harwood family but unfortunately, knew nothing before the early 1800s, so far too late for William Harwood/Hannah Walmsley. He also did a short chapter on the Walmsleys, again too late for Hannah.
He didn't do the Yates at all. I don't blame him - they are an even bigger muddle than the Holdens, although they are all related to some degree, so in theory it should be possible to make some sense out of them!
I'm sorry I can't help you get any further back, but I have a note of your interests now and if anything crops up I'll let you know.
OC
Olde Crone - sorry for my late reply, like yourself I've had a few busy days as well so only now able to have a look.
I appreciate the effort you've gone to to check on the Hawoods and Haworths etc. Looks like we're stuck at the same place mmmmm!!! Well I'll soldier on and see what turns up - if anything. I'll post any info I manage to dig up on here for your records as well.
Fingers crossed there's a little chink of daylight/information poking through our brick wall somewhere out there haha
Many kind regards - Luloo
Hi Luloo, I may be able to help you find your family as I'm your cousin. My dad was Edward your dad's brother.
I was searching the web for a picture of our mutual grandad and came across this website, your thread came up first and the moment I saw the name Roger I knew it was my family.
Almost all of your cousins are still alive and kicking
Regards
Neil
kiterunner
12-06-17, 18:29
Neil, Luloo has not been active on this forum for some time, so you may be best to send an email - click "Send a message via email to Luloo" on the "Contact info" tab at the following link:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=12070
Good Morning Neil and Kiterunner - Firstly, many thanks Kiterunner, for directing Neil to message me via email and how fantastic and exciting to hear from you Neil. We have some catching up to do. I've still been busy researching, but put the Holden's on the back burner for awhile whilst I looked at my mums side (Beatties from Silloth, just as confusing). I've sent you a private email and look forward to catching up and filling in some blanks. Just so thrilled to hear from you.
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