View Full Version : Lost in the census - help please
My distant grandmother Charlotte Skelton Gurner was born in Stroud in Gloucestershire and baptised there in 21/6/1829. Her parents were Thomas Gurner a publican and Frances Gurner nee Weston. Charlotte had an older brother Thomas George Gurner who was baptised in Stroud on the 30/12/1827
I think her parents must have died because the only Charlotte Gurner I can find who would fit in the 1841 census is living with some other girls in Stroud and the address looks like Frome Buildings - I wonder just what this would have been. I can't find her brother Thomas George at all.
However, in the 1851 census I can't find Charlotte, but her brother Thomas is living in Clerkenwell London with Henry Graves, whom Charlotte later marries.
If anyone could find Charlotte in the 1851, and Thomas in the 1841 I would be most grateful. Many thanks
I can't shake off the idea that Charlotte might have been with her brother and future husband in 1851 but was missed off the census! Particularly as Thomas was listed as 'brother' and this was before Charlotte was married.
Frances Gurner seems to have remarried in 1834 to George Holford at Rodborough:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5156/41511_626640_4183-00174/3505508?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dgloucmarriages%26 gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dfran*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dgurner%26gsln_x %3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dglou*%26gskw_x%3d 1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbuck et%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672%26pcat%3d34%26fh %3d0%26h%3d4432608%26recoff%3d7%2b8%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Did you have a third child for Thomas and Frances?
William Henry Gurner
5 Jun 1831 Stroud, St Lawrence
Thomas Gurner,
Frances Gurner
I see the marriage of Thomas Gurner and Frances Weston gives their father's names when it didn't have to! That never happens for me lol!!
I have looked for the census records you asked for, without much luck. No more time now unfortunately.
From fmp:
First name(s) George
Last name Holford
Entry year; 1838
Status/occupation; Victualler
County; Gloucestershire
Court; Consistory Court of Gloucester
Place; Stroud
Document type; Will
Document reference; 1838/108
Record set; Gloucestershire Wills & Administrations, 1801-1858
FreeBMD:
Deaths Jun 1838
HOLFORD George Stroud 11 328
fmp:
First name(s); Thomas
Last name; Gurner
Age; 28
Birth year; 1805
Death year; 1833
Death date; ? ? 1833
Burial year; 1833
Burial date; 04 Mar 1833
Burial place; Rodborough
Denomination; Calvinistic Methodist
County; Gloucestershire
Archive reference; TNA/RG/4/1076
Description; GLOUCESTER: Rodborough, The Tabernacle (Calvinistic Methodist): Burials
Thank you for that further information Merry. I didn't know about the third child for them, I must follow that up further.
Much appreciated....:d
Kiterunner had preciously found me the marriage of Frances to George Holford
You could be right about Charlotte living with her brother and future husband in the 1851, I just wonder why she wasn't mentioned.
The burial entry for Thomas Gurner says 'of Stroud'. His son, William, was buried the same day aged 18 months, but I don't think he's been indexed as it was all written as one entry..
There are two other Gurner burials at the same place who I thought might be brothers of Thomas:
Robert Gurner of Stroud aged 25 buried 07 May 1831
Joseph Gurner of Stroud aged 23 buried 24 May 1831
fmp newspapers:
07 March 1833 - Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Bath, Somerset
Feb. 26, in the 28th year of his age, Mr. Thomas Gurner, of the Dolphin Inn, Stroudwater, Gloucestershire, and formerly of this city.
Goodness, all so young. I wonder what was going around at the time to cause that.
You could be right about Charlotte living with her brother and future husband in the 1851, I just wonder why she wasn't mentioned.
I have seen families where some family members appear to have been missed, possibly because the enumerator reached the bottom of the page and when he moved to the next page he forgot to finish the family he was working on. Thomas and his bro-in-law are at the bottom of their page! (no doubt Kate will now find Charlotte and ruin my theory! :D)
Drat! I've just read your old thread and see that the majority of what I've found today is on there!! lol
I've forgotten if Thomas and Frances's father's names were on that thread now, but they were on the marriage entry as James Gurner and Daniel Weston if that helps at all. And now we know Thomas might have been from Bath (from the newspaper cutting), but I think you had everything else I found already.
...and Merry I have just checked out that marriage for Charlotte and Thomas Gurner and it seems as though the records for that particular church always included the names of the fathers.....how helpful.
Also on the other thread Kate said she had found Thomas jr in 1841, but didn't say where.
I couldn't find that thread Merry, could you please give me the link
kiterunner
05-06-15, 09:05
This is the link to the other thread:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13783&highlight=gurner
and I presume this is Thomas jr in 1841 or at least who I thought was him on the other thread:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/KENHO107_484_485-0107/3099738?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dtho *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dg%253frn%253fr%26gsln_x%3d 1%26msbdy%3d1826%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn __ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1% 26MSAV%3d-1%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d7 0%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAjEgBMLBE-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Thank you Kiterunner for that.
It seems strange that Frances would just go off and leave her two children to settle down with George Holford.
Young Thomas was sent quite a long way from home to that school if it is him, and I wondered if Charlotte was at some type of school in Stroud in the 1841 as there were a couple of other young girls there too. But it didn't mention anything about being pupils, maybe they boarded there and attended the local school.
Sorry Merry, I was just trying to tie up some loose ends and was hoping to find just where they were in the census. At least I can now add Thomas in the 1841 census and will have to assume that Charlotte was living in London with her brother and future husband in the 1851. I hadn't considered that, but she could well have been.
kiterunner
05-06-15, 09:33
It seems strange that Frances would just go off and leave her two children to settle down with George Holford.
We don't know what happened to Frances after George Holford's death, do we? I'll have a look and see whether I can find anything, but I don't think we have seen anything to suggest that she left her children when she married George?
kiterunner
05-06-15, 09:37
There is a Frances Holford death in Bath in 1845 but Bath BMD gives her age as 60 so looks too old to be your Frances unless it is a mistake.
On the application for a marriage licence in 1826 it was stated that Frances was 'a spinster of the parish of the age of twenty one years and upwards' - at least that is what Thomas Gurner stated. Given that we know what age Thomas was when he died I would imagine that wouldn't be her death in 1845. However, death certs often have mistakes on them depending on who supplied the information. So I think I will keep it in mind as a possible rather than a probable at this stage.
kiterunner
05-06-15, 10:03
Frances Wesson was baptised 27 Jan 1804 at Chipping Campden, Gloucestershire, daughter of Daniel and Hannah:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4732/41511_636897_1079-00043/538489?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dgloucbmdearly%26so%3d2%26pcat %3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3df*a n*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26 msbdy%3d1804%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d1%26msbpn__ft p_x%3d1%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw%3dchipp ing%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp %3d4%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=41511_63689 7_1079-00041
Her father's name is Daniel on the marriage to Thomas so this could be her.
It could well be, thank you - how exciting to be able to add a few more names to the tree.
This birth fits in better for the wedding in 1826, but not so well for the death in 1845.
I can't find that Frances Holford in 1841 who died in 1845 aged 60.
If you wanted to know if your Frances survived her second husband you could get a copy of his will which might throw some light on the situation.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Results.aspx
I think it's more likely Frances died between 1834 and 1837.
I don't think you can say she "went off" with George as she probably remarried quickly in order to have support for herself and her two surviving children.
If you wanted to know if your Frances survived her second husband you could get a copy of his will which might throw some light on the situation.
Looks as if it would cost £6.50 plus overseas postage, but don't quote me on that!
kiterunner
05-06-15, 12:47
If you wanted to know if your Frances survived her second husband you could get a copy of his will which might throw some light on the situation.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/genealogy/Results.aspx
Sabrina transcribed George's will on the other thread and Frances was a joint executor and definitely still alive in 1838:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=185301&postcount=13
Oh, well that makes all the difference! So, there should be a death reg or re-marriage for Frances. (of course she could be the Bath entry)
I'm throwing this into the mix because of the (decidedly odd) name of the bride's father:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_198129-00039/7520858?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26gss%3dsfs28_ms _r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dFRANCES%26gsfn _x%3d1%26gsln%3dHOLFORD%26gsln_x%3dNN%26MSAV%3d1%2 6uidh%3d9vh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Family in 1851, with a daughter (pre marriage?) born in Stroud:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1515_1515-0008/2735813?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d35% 26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dFRANCES%26gsfn_x%3 d1%26gsln%3dosborne%26gsln_x%3dNN%26cpxt%3d1%26cp% 3d4%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3d9vh&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
kiterunner
05-06-15, 14:16
Oooh, that looks good, Phoenix! The daughter on the 1851 census is Charlotte, isn't it?
That's what I make it, Kite.
And I note that hubby three goes all the way to Calcutta!
kiterunner
05-06-15, 14:21
This might be them in 1841 but they say Yes for born in county:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_660_660-0016/7006987?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dcha*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dosb*r*%26gsln_x% 3d1%26msbdy%3d1816%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msb pn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d 1%26_83004003-n_xcl%3df%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d %26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAjEgCToBE-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
His occupation looks like Bookbinder which is the occupation on the marriage certificate, or am I just seeing what I want to see?
I'm throwing this into the mix because of the (decidedly odd) name of the bride's father:
lol that's hilarious!
This might be them in 1841 but they say Yes for born in county:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_660_660-0016/7006987?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dcha*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dosb*r*%26gsln_x% 3d1%26msbdy%3d1816%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msb pn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d 1%26_83004003-n_xcl%3df%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d %26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAjEgCToBE-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
His occupation looks like Bookbinder which is the occupation on the marriage certificate, or am I just seeing what I want to see?
That's them, because of the children.
Oooh, that looks good, Phoenix! The daughter on the 1851 census is Charlotte, isn't it?
Dur, it's Charlotte who we were looking for, wasn't it!:o
kiterunner
05-06-15, 14:50
This is Charles's probate information:
1859 OSBORNE Charles Skipp. Effects under £200.
15 April. The Will of Charles Skipp Osborne formerly of Garnault-place Exmouth-street afterwards of Marion-square Hackney-road both in the County of Middlesex but late of Calcutta in the East Indies deceased who died 18 June 1858 on the Road between Fulletepore and Cawnpore in the East Indies was proved at the Principal Registry by the oath of Frances Osborne of Marion-square aforesaid Widow the Relict and one of the Executors.
kiterunner
05-06-15, 14:54
Here is Frances in 1861 (make sure to go onto the next image as there are more children, same goes for the 1851 entry that Phoenix linked to, which fooled me by having a blank line at the end of the first page):
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MDXRG9_236_236-0294/5527066?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1861%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3df*an*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dosb*%26gsln_x%3d1% 26msbdy%3d1805%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d10%26msbpn_ _ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%2 6msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x %3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1% 26mscng0_x%3d1%26_83004003-n_xcl%3dm%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Frances' birthplace on the 1851 and 1861 censuses is Camden, Gloucestershire, confirming that Chipping Campden baptism is her.
kiterunner
05-06-15, 15:19
1871:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_445_449-0106/12031272?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3df*an*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dosb*%26gsln_x%3d1% 26msbdy%3d1805%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d10%26msbpn_ _ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%2 6msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x %3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1% 26mscng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dglo*%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004 003-n_xcl%3dm%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
1881:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_387_392-0384/14915131?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26h%3d14915131%26indi v%3dtry%26o_vc%3dRecord%3aOtherRecord%26rhSource%3 d7619&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
I notice the boarder in the 1881 household is named Frances Weston!
kiterunner
05-06-15, 15:30
And a likely death for Frances: Jul-Sep 1888 Osborne, Frances, age 83, Shoreditch.
kiterunner
05-06-15, 15:31
I notice the boarder in the 1881 household is named Frances Weston!
She was down as "niece" in 1871.
Oh, I didn't look at that one :o
An indication of Charles Skipp Osborne's background:
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=556&dsqSearch=%28AltRefNo%3D%27D678%27%29
Goodness Phoenix you have certainly been digging, and you have come up with some amazing information to sift through. That will give me plenty to do over the weekend...very thought provoking.
Many thanks........:d
I have to admit I am totally confused now ladies, this is going to take some sorting out....:eek::eek:
I will lay it all out and see where it takes me. You have all found so much information, I don't know how you do it.
Which part is confusing, Val?
I got from this that Frances married three times. Al the marriages and the deaths for the three husbands have been found in some form or other and a death for Frances herself.
The census records you were looking for originally have been found and later ones for Frances through to 1881. Kate found her baptism but I don't think we've found one yet for her first husband.
There seems to be three children born in the first marriage, none found for the second marriage and quite a few in the third marriage.
I was looking for something else, but turned up passport applications for:
T Skipp Osborne 5 Jul 1854
Charles S Osborne 25 Aug 1854
There are probably others, but those two stood out!
It's interesting that Frances married Mr Holford on 2 Feb 1834 (transcribed by Ancestry as 2 April), but there is this on the newspaper from a couple of months later. I would doubt the Lloyd brothers had been in custody for more than a very short period, but when I've finished with typing this I'll have a look for earlier reports of the crime:
Leicester Chronicle 12 April 1834
Poetical evidence - at Gloucester assizes, on Friday week, William Lloyd aged 16, was charged with stealing in the dwelling house of Mrs Frances Gurner, widow, one five pound note, three sovereigns, three silver salts, a watch, a pair of earrings, and a brooch, her property; and George Lloyd his brother, aged 22, was charged with receiving the same. Mrs Gurner kept the Dolphin Inn at Stroud. The prisoner, William Lloyd, lodged there and after the robbery he and his brother were missing. The prisoner, William Lloyd, while in custody wrote some verses which he delivered to the constable, having first signed his name at the side of the paper. The verses were as follows:-
"When I was sixteen years of age,
And I was quite a child,
I had a brother very bad,
And he made me very wild.
He came to Bristol after me,
And that was in six hours,
And as we came along to Stroud,
We passed many lofty towers.
He advised me to rob a woman
That was in great concern;
Says he, "You may do it easily,
And that you may discern."
Then he prepared a key for me,
With which I was to do the deed,
Says I to him, "I think 'twill do,
I will do it with great speed."
But when I came to try the key,
I found it would not do;
And than on the next evening,
He gave me a turn-screw."
The jury found the poet, William Lloyd, guilty and acquitted his brother. Sentence, transportation for life.
Newspaper notice I wasn't looking for!:
Gloucestershire Chronicle 15 February 1834
On the 2nd inst. at Rodborough, in this County, Mr. George Holtford, printer, youngest son of the late Mr. Henry Holford, of this city, to Mrs. Frances Gurner, of the Dolphin Inn, Stroud.
Another one I wasn't looking for:
02 June 1825 - Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Bath, Somerset
Died......Aged 58, Mrs Susan Gurner, of the Dolphin Inn, Stroud, formerly of Bath
(might she ne Thomas senr's mother? )
.and another!
30 January 1823 - Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Bath, Somerset
Sunday, Mr. Gurner, of the Dolphin, Stroudwater, Gloucestershire and many years guide at the Hot and Cross Baths in this city.
(possibly Thomas's father, James Gurner?)
I didn't find anything more about the robbery at the Dolphin Inn.
.and another!
30 January 1823 - Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Bath, Somerset
Sunday, Mr. Gurner, of the Dolphin, Stroudwater, Gloucestershire and many years guide at the Hot and Cross Baths in this city.
(possibly Thomas's father, James Gurner?)
Here's the burial to go with that notice:
1823 St Lawrence, Stroud
James Gurner of High Street, Stroud, bur 29 Jan aged 61
and also:
1825 St Lawrence, Stroud
Susannah Gurner of High Street, Stroud, bur 31 May aged 57
James Gurner and Susannah Gould married at Bath St James 25 Jun 1787. (FreeREG)
I am quite overwhelmed Merry, but thank you for straightening out a few things. I now have to print everything out and lay it on the table to sort through. Frances Gurner is proving to be a very interesting lady indeed.
I was saddened to see the poet who waxed lyrical was sentenced and his brother was let off, but maybe it enabled him to write many more verses whilst he was incarcerated, he seemed to have talent in that direction.....:d:d:d
Many thanks for all this extra info, I would never have found it on my own, I don't know how you do it...........thank you to everyone who has helped.
tenterfieldjulie
06-06-15, 10:09
Great research everyone.
These are baptisms for children of James Gurner and Susannah Gould who married in 1787:
22 Feb 1788, Elizabeth, Bath Abbey
27 Dec 1789, Anne, Bath, Walcot St Swithin
(the same day Anne was baptised there was a baptism at the same church for a James Gurner, son of Robert and Grace. I wonder if they are relations of your James?)
11 Nov 1793, William, Bath, Walcot St Swithin
08 Nov 1795, Susanna, Bath, Bathwick, St Mary the Virgin (aged 17 days)
20 Feb 1798, Mary and Sarah, Bath, Walcot St Swithin
04 Jul 1802, John, Bath, Walcot St Swithin
23 Sep 1804 (born 31 Aug 1804), John, Bath, Bathwick, St Mary the Virgin
No sign of Thomas. I wish I had a pound for every time a youngest child was not baptised!
EDIT: and also no sign of those two men who died and were buried at the same place as Thomas but in 1831, that I noticed up-thread.
Here's another dilemma/connection (depending on your point of view!) - I saw a newspaper announcement regarding the marriage of Katherine Gurner to John Gallop of Brimscombe Port, Gloucestershire. It stated she was the youngest dau of James Gurner of Bath. The marriage was this one:
Name: Catharine Gurner
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 31 Dec 1819
Marriage Place: Horsley, Gloucester
Spouse: John Gallop
Now, there's no baptism for Catherine either in the list above. Here's something though; on your old thread Sabrina transcribed the will of George Holford's will written in 1838. One of the exors is John Gallop of Stroud, accountant. So, is this her first husband's brother-in-law or a more distant relation or just a coincidence?
There's a death for a John Gallop:
Deaths Jun 1840
Gallop John Stroud 11 351
and then a Catherine Gallop aged 40 in Stroud on the 1841 census. She said No for born in County (which is what we want if she was born in Bath) but annoyingly, she died in 1850, so doesn't get to tell us more!
John Gallop was aged 43 when he was buried in Stroud St Lawrence 10 Apr 1840.
Catherine Gallop was 49 when she was buried at the same place 17 Mar 1850.
04 Jul 1802, John, Bath, Walcot St Swithin
23 Sep 1804 (born 31 Aug 1804), John, Bath, Bathwick, St Mary the Virgin
I can't find a death for the first John, so I keep wondering if the second John was actually Thomas! (Jno or Tho perhaps?). That doesn't help with Catherine, of course!
Thank you Merry, I have been setting it all out today as a time line and it is starting to make a lot more sense, still a way to go but we have visitors arriving any minute so will have to get back to it tomorrow.
It is amazing the amount of info you have found and has taken my family back a lot further.....very exciting.
The Gallop connection is interesting too.
I also found that Frances Weston, the niece living with Frances Osborne in the 1871 and 1881 census was married but listed as an imbecile. When I have a spare minute.....ha ha!! I will try to work out the connection there. I had initially thought she would be Frances's brothers daughter but if she was married that rules that out. Both census say she was married.
Also - re the marriage of Frances Holford to Charles Skip Osborne would you think that Frances' fathers given name as Weston Holford was just an error on the clerics part as she would have told him she was Frances Holford nee Weston etc etc? I am convinced that often the records were written up a few days after the actual ceremony and the clerk had to rack his brains to remember the details.
I am convinced that often the records were written up a few days after the actual ceremony and the clerk had to rack his brains to remember the details.
Remember the bride, groom and witnesses had to sign the register, so probably not written up ages after the ceremony. Frances may or may not have noticed the mistake, but presumably if she did, was to embarrassed (or some other emotion) to say anything!
I hadn't noticed the other Frances Weston was married. I wonder where her husband had got to?
I was imagining the Frances Weston (niece) thing would be very tricky - more than one birthplace for Frances, no husband's first name and possible query over her exact relationshi0p to the other Frances.
However, they were in Shoreditch (Hoxton) in 1881 and Frances (the niece) doesn't seem to appear in 1891, so is this her?
Deaths Jun 1882
WESTON Frances D'Anvers 54 Shoreditch 1c 71
and if it is, is this also her?
Marriages Mar 1851
Hawkley Eliza Tewkesbury 11 541
Jauncey James Tewkesbury 11 541
Stevens Emma Tewkesbury 11 541
Thompson Frances Danvers Tewkesbury 11 541 <<<<<<<<<<<
Weston William Thomas Tewkesbury 11 541 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Witts George Tewkesbury 11 541
Worth a look I think!
I hope you have a good time with your visitors.
Hmmm, Frances D Thompson was baptised in St Geo Hanover Square in London in 1830, so right time frame, wrong place.
Her husband and father-in-law were both builders and the f-I-l was named Thomas Bromwell Weston.
Link (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5156/41511_633870_4268-00013/708420?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dgloucmarriages%26so%3d2%26pca t%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dweston%26gsln _x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msgdy%3d1851%26msgdy_x %3d1%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x %3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSA V%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) to the marriage entry.
??
William Thomas Weston
26 May 1830 Cheltenham, St Mary
Thomas Weston,
Esther Weston
Here's (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/GLSHO107_1973_1973-1090/7849644?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dweston%26gsln _x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1830%26msbdy_x %3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dchelt enham%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26 cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) the whole family three months after the wedding. Frances b London rather than Brighton/Littlehampton Sussex. Also her father-in-law (who I'd been wanting to be your Frances's brother), is also from Middlesex, so despite them living in Cheltenham which is where some of Frances's brothers did live, this lot do seem like red-herrings at the moment.
I don't really see another likely death for Frances the lodger/niece.
Ooooooh!
His parents are Daniel and Hannah which are the names of your Frances's parents, I think:
Thomas Weston
Baptism 5 Jun 1795 St Dunstan with St Catherine, Feltham, Middlesex
Daniel,
Hannah
Frances's mother is on the 1841 census in Chipping Campden aged 70 and probably in the household of her dau Hannah, but I've not checked out Hannah jr's marriage yet.
Daniel Weston's will is on ancestry (1839, signed 1831) he bequeaths things to:
wife Hannah
son Stephen
eldest son Thomas!!!
son Daniel
dau Elizabeth Weston
dau Frances Gurner
dau Hannah Weston
Gloucester Journal 16 May 1896
WESTON - THOMPSON
Wanted - Next-of-Kin, or any persons claiming or having any interest in the estates of William Thomas Weston Esquire, deceased, late of Kilburn, Middlesex, who died at Brighton, 28th February, 1896, and of Frances Danvers Weston, deceased, his wife, who died 19th June, 1882, the daughter of Robert Thompson Esquire, formerly of Newry, county Down, Ireland. Communicate with Messrs. Lawrence, Graham and Co., 6, New Square, Lincoln's Inn, London.
I wonder if anyone came forward?
Administration was granted to George Jerome Weston in July 1896.
George Jerome was William Thomas Weston's (much younger) half brother. Their father, Thomas, was married to Louisa on the 1871 census and they had twins aged 5. These are the birth registrations:
Births Mar 1866
Weston George J Cheltenham 6a 402
Weston Georgina B Cheltenham 6a 403
Your Frances's father's burial:
Daniel Weston
b abt 1770 bur 26 Nov 1831 Chipping Campden
Children of Daniel and Hannah:
Thomas Weston bap 5 Jun 1795 St Dunstan with St Catherine, Feltham, Middlesex - Daniel, Hannah
Daniel Weston bap 6 Nov 1799 Chipping Campden, Gloucester - Daniel
Charles Weston bap 30 May 1802 Chipping Campden, Gloucester - Daniel
Frances Wesson bap 27 Jan 1804 Chipping Campden, Gloucester - Daniel,
Hannah
Esther Weston bap 20 Jun 1806 Chipping Campden, Gloucester - Daniel
Hannah Weston bap 16 Nov 1808 Chipping Campden, Gloucester - Daniel
Stephen Weston bap 31 Mar 1811 Chipping Campden, Gloucester - Daniel
There is also this one, ten miles from Chipping Campden which could fit in the gap at the beginning and there's an Elizabeth in Daniel's will:
Elizth Weston 19 Nov 1797 Cropthorne, Worcester - Daniel, Hannah
I haven't found deaths for the children not in their father's will yet.
tenterfieldjulie
07-06-15, 10:36
Wow Merry you are on a roll .. are you burning the midnight oil again lol
Erm, No Julie, I'm cooking the lunch! lol (it's 11.45am-ish)
I can't find William Thomas Weston in 1871, 81 or 1891. In 1861 he is a married boarder in Paddington. I can't find his wife, Frances, in 1861.
There's an entry for Frances Weston in the UK, Lunacy Patients Admission Registers, 1846-1912 which shows admission to Great Foster House Lunatic Asylum, Egham, Surrey on 26 April 1858 and discharged on 11 Feb 1865.
I'm pretty sure that is the right Frances as it matches up with this 1861 census record, which has the right initials and Littlehampton as place of birth, which, whilst it is probably not where she was born, is the place mentioned on one of the later censuses! (Littlehampton is in Sussex though not Essex):
Great Foster House Private Lunatic Asyum
F D A W lunatic married 33 (female) b Littlehampton, Essex
Good grief Merry, you must have been up half the night, I am indeed indebted to you for all this.
I wasn't surprised to see Frances the niece in a private lunatic asylum as Frances Osborne wasn't short of funds to help out - I noticed in one census they had a private governess for the children and a house servant.
I know what I will be doing today, at least it is a public holiday here for the Queen's birthday so we didn't have much else planned......:d:d:d Thank you for all these amazing records.
So, how come you get a holiday today, but we don't?!!
One final thing - some census records for Frances Danvers Weston nee Thompson had her place of birth as London and others as Littlehampton/Brighton, Sussex. As I found this baptism for her, I presumed London was correct:
Frances Danvers Thompson bap 12 Sep 1830 St George Hanover Square Westminster - Robert Thompson, Frances Maria Thompson, Address Albemarle Street, father's occ, gentleman
But afterwards I also came across this one:
Frances Danvers Thompson bap 18 Sep 1827 Saint Mary, Littlehampton, Sussex- Robert, Frances Maria
So, are they baptisms for the same child or for siblings? Frances's age on the census falls somewhere between the two! I couldn't find the family in 1841. Her parents married in London in 1817.
Hah Merry, nothing to do with our present Queen, but it is really to celebrate the birthday of King George III who was on the throne when Captain Cook charted the country. They just make it the King or Queen's Birthday depending who is on the throne at the present time.
Thank you for the latest, might there have been two daughters with that name, the first one dying early I wonder? I shall put that on my 'to do' list.
I have made great inroads today and have made a timeline for Frances. One thing I decided she was a very fortunate lady, first her father left her a house and 1/3 of some land, then two husbands died leaving her with inheritances, and then Charles died and left her comfortable. I see that he was in India during the Indian uprising, I wonder what he was doing there as the census said he was a book binder. He was right in the middle of things by the looks of it, much to his misfortune. That is also going on to my list for future research.....:d:d:d
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