Who are these people?

[Oakum Picker]

My gg-uncle Edward CRICKMORE was born in 1868 in Ipswich, Suffolk. His mother died in 1874 & in 1881 he is in an Industrial School in Coventry Warks.

He attested to the West Kent Regt. in 1887 & served 12 yrs. In 1899 he was back in Coventry getting married but was left a widower 2 years later. He then joined up again for 2 years late 1902-04 in Manchester (which may or may not be of significance). He joined the Suffolk Militia in 1905 but bought himself out early 1907. His WWI army papers show his next of kin as wife Annie.

There was a marriage in late 1907 in Ipswich between Edward CRICKMORE & Hannah Holland FOX which seemed reasonable so I followed Hannah through BMDs & Census as you do. I was happy with a birth in 1875 to William Henry FOX & Sarah BECK. I only found the family in 1881 but as they are not direct line I wasn't too bothered.

Jump forward to 1911 & Edward is once more in the army stationed in Newcastle, married but on his own. The only vague possibility for his wife was in Ipswich:

Mary Hannah?, aged 28?, m. 3 years, Private Means? b. Manchester.

My greatest concern was the age so I searched the Ipswich Parish Records & deduced, correctly that the marriage took place at the Register Office.

I decided to send for the cert. & now my problems really started. Edward's details were as expected but
Hannah Holland FOX 26 yrs Widow Barmaid William Henry WOOLSTENCROFT (Dec) Licensed Victualler

I have concocted several wild scenarios but nothing I can substantiate with fact.

Can anyone see how all these facts can be linked? Any help gratefully received. I've probably missed something quite simple but you know how it is , you can't see for looking. Thanks.

[Olde Crone]

Hannah Holland Fox b 1875 Didsbury Manchester.

There is another, Mary Hannah Fox, who is a different person I think.

Scenario: Hannah Holland Fox lied about being a widow....did she have a child? OR - she found out later that her father was Woolstoncroft, not Fox.

Have to go out, not abandoning you!)

OC

[Olde Crone]

..but before I go, lol

William Henry Woolstoncroft= Harriet Clowes 1893 Burnley St Andrew

OC

EDIT - too young.

[Olde Crone]

Ooh look!

31 July 1882 St Mary Virgin Prestwich

William Henry Wolstencroft 27, bach, minder, 10 Haggate Lane Royton
Mary Sheard 22 weaver spinster 39 Radcliffe St Royton
Isiaih Wolstencroft Jobber
John Sheard minder
Wits: John Grimshaw MARTHA JANE FOX.

Worth a follow up?

OC

[kiterunner]

Hannah Holland Fox was baptised 29 Aug 1875 at Chorlton-cum-Hardy, Lancashire (in the Manchester PR's on ancestry), date of birth 28 Jul 1875, parents William Henry Fox and Sarah Fox, abode Chorlton-cum-Hardy, occupation labourer.

[kiterunner]

1881 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LANRG11_3892_3896-0311/10231998?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dhan *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1876%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2 %26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26 _83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3 drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

2 New Buildings, Chorlton cum Hardy, Lancashire
William Fox Head Mar 27 Machine Coiner(?) Lancashire Chorlton Hardy
Sarah Do Wife Mar 30 Staffordshire Burton
John Do Son 7 Scholar Lancashire Chorlton Hardy
Hannah H Do Daugh 5 " " "
James Do Son 3 " "

[kiterunner]

This could be the same Hannah in 1901, or not:
1901 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LANRG13_3696_3698-0243/23160836?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dhan *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1876%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2 %26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26 _83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3 drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Hannah Fox, age 26, unmarried, visiting a family called Seaton at 120 Everton Rd, Manchester, Retired Saleswoman, born Manchester.

[Oakum Picker]

Thanks for the interest OC.

I've been looking at this since I received the cert. yesterday lunchtime & now can't remember exactly what I've looked at but those names seem familiar.

I've just resolved a dual surname problem for someone else & my first clue was 2 people with different surnames but exact same 2 christian names.

I can't find Hannah FOX or William Henry WOOLSTENCROFT in 1891or 1901, possibly Hannah is a visitor in Manchester in 1901.

There is only 1 birth & 1 marriage for Hannah Holland FOX & no death under the known surnames. I believe Edward died in Leicester in 1942 - don't know how he got there & again there is no female death under any of the christian names.

I'm usually good at thinking outside the box but at the moment I'm not even sure what the box is that I should be thinking outside of!!

[kiterunner]

There is a baptism at Withington, Lancashire (also in ancestry's Manchester PR's) of a Martha Fox, 17 Dec 1881, parents William Henry and Sarah, abode Withington, occupation labourer. I haven't managed to find any of them on the 1891 census yet though.

[kiterunner]

William Henry Fox married Sarah Beck 18 Mar 1873 at St Clements, Chorlton cum Hardy:
Manchester PRs on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2962/40365_294453-00344/3738323?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchestermarriagescro%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwil*%26g sfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x %3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msgdy%3d1873%26ms gdy_x%3d1%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26mssng0%3dsar*%26mss ng0_x%3d1%26mssns0%3db%253fck%26mssns0_x%3d1%26gsk w_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cp%3d0%26catbucket%3dr stp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
His father is John Fox, tailor, and hers is George Beck, joiner.

[Oakum Picker]

Thanks Kate,

Yes, that was the line I went down but those details don't agree with the marriage cert. The Hannah on marriage was about 6 yrs younger. As her groom was 38 I don't see why she would deduct years plus if she's a widow how can she be the one born 1875? There are no other marriage of CRICKMORE/FOX during the correct period so the Mary Hannah has to be her but why the name change?

[Merry]

There is a baptism at Withington, Lancashire (also in ancestry's Manchester PR's) of a Martha Fox, 17 Dec 1881, parents William Henry and Sarah, abode Withington, occupation labourer. I haven't managed to find any of them on the 1891 census yet though.

Passing through........ try FOS not Fox in 1891!

[Mary from Italy]

I've been looking for a William Henry Woolstencroft victualler on the censuses, but I haven't found one so far.

[kiterunner]

This is Martha Fox's marriage, 2 Aug 1909 at Holy Trinity, Hulme, Manchester, to Frederick Arthur Thomas. Martha's father is down as William Henry Fox, joiner, deceased.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2962/40364_633870_2881-00021/5609429?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchestermarriagescro%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dmarth*%2 6gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp _x%3d1%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_A dvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1882%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw% 3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1% 26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

So Martha should be around somewhere on the 1891 and 1901 censuses, perhaps with more of the family.

[kiterunner]

Passing through........ try FOS not Fox in 1891!

Thanks, Merry. So this is William and Sarah in 1891:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/LANRG12_3162_3164-0332/13598835?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1891%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3dmarth*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfos%26gsln_x%3d1% 26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp _x%3d1%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%2 6msmns_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26msbns0_x%3d1%26mssng 0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26mscns0_x%3 d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

with children James 14, Martha 10, Edith 8, Emily 5 and Mary Ann 2. All the children except James are born Didsbury, Lancashire. William's occupation general labourer.

[kiterunner]

In 1901 Emily and Mary Ann are in Hove, Sussex, being trained for domestic service:
1901 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/SSXRG13_936_937-0442/6474574?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d190 1UKI%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3demily%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d 1%26msbdy%3d1886%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn __ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1% 26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_ x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1 %26mscng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV %3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=SSXRG13_936 _937-0441)

and Edith is a domestic servant, also in Hove:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/SSXRG13_938_939-0197/6483248?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_r_db %26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dedit h%2b%2b%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26m sbdy%3d1883%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn__ftp _x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msf ng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1 %26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26ms cng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2% 26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Oakum Picker]

Thanks all, I have to go away for an hour or so but shall be back later.

[kiterunner]

Here is William Henry Fox in 1861, age 7:
1861 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/LANRG9_2865_2871-0820/9217700?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1861%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROO T_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwil*%2bh *r*y%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswp n__ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d10%26MSAV%3d2 %26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1851%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1% 26msfng%3djohn%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw_ x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26cat bucket%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

New Buildings, Chorlton cum Hardy, Lancashire
John Fox Head Mar 61 Tailor Lancashire Chorlton cum Hardy
Hannah Fox Wife Mar 57 Laundress Do Do
Marth Fox Daur Un 28 Do Do Do
William Henry Do Son 7 Scholar Do Do

I rather doubt that William Henry is the son of John and Hannah, so maybe this is where the name Woolstencroft comes in? I'll see if I can find birth reg / baptism for him...

[Mary from Italy]

I've found Edward's burial at Gilroes Cemetery, Leicester, but he isn't buried with his wife; the only other people buried in the same plot are Harriet, Frederick and Eliza Moss.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, William Henry Fox was baptised as the son of John and Hannah:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2960/40365_294452-00869/4479009?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchesterbaptismscro%26so%3d 2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwil*%2bh *r*y%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26mswp n__ftp_x%3d1%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26MSAV%3d2% 26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26msbdy%3d1854%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1%2 6gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4% 26catbucket%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

There are a few possible birth regs on Lancs BMD but they don't all show mother's maiden name anyway.
In 1871 William is 17, son of Hannah 66, and Martha is still unmarried:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LANRG10_3973_3974-0456/16647910?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dwil *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dfox%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3 d1854%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d5%26msbpn__ftp_x%3d1 %26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng_x%3 d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x%3d1%26msb ng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x %3d1%26gskw%3dlanc*%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh %3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d10%26fsk% 3dBEDczMwIgAAdwwBnrh0-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[kiterunner]

There is a non-conformist baptism 10 Sep 1893 of a Henry, son of William Henry Wolstencroft and Elizabeth Ann, of 44 Carmen St, Ardwick, Manchester. Just putting it in here because it doesn't give father's occupation so I need to find them to see whether he is a victualler.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/3758/41501_636672_2778-00044/276063?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchesternonconformist%26so% 3d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gs ln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB% 3d1%26msfng%3dwil*%2bh*r*y%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns%3 dw*l*st*cr*%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002 _x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%26catbucket%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Edit - never mind, his father is a joiner on his (Henry's) marriage cert:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/9095/41501_605905_0412-00012/184071?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchesternonconformistmarria ge%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gs ln_x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26MS_AdvCB% 3d1%26msfng%3dwil*%2bh*r*y%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns%3 dw*l*st*cr*%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002 _x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d4%26catbucket%3drstp&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Another edit - reading through again, Martha Fox gave her father's occupation as joiner on her marriage in 1909 (post #14) so maybe this does need looking at after all.

[kiterunner]

This is that Wolstencroft family in 1901 but William Henry is a lot younger than William Henry Fox:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LANRG13_3675_3676-0248/22994418?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1901%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%2 6new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsf n%3dh*r*y%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dw*ls*t*cr*%26gsln_ x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1894%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26m sbpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x% 3d1%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26ms mns_x%3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0_x %3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Edit - also that couple got married in 1888 and the Foxes were still together in 1891 so we can forget this lot.

[Oakum Picker]

I'm back, thanks for your continued efforts. You are finding what I found but I just can't link any of the events to make sense.

I can't find a suitable death for William Henry WOOLSTENCROFT or FOX. Deceased in 1907 leaves a lot of years to search especially if he's like Edward's father who died in 1882!! I may have to put this on the 'unsolvable at present' pile.

[Oakum Picker]

Mary, was there a date for Edward's burial please?

[Mary from Italy]

Edward Crickmore aged 74, address 13 Grange Lane / Royal Infirmary, Leicester, buried 5th June 1942. 13 Grange Lane is presumably where he was living (it isn't the address of the Royal Infirmary).

[Oakum Picker]

Thanks Mary, at least I can bury him even his 2nd missus is still a puzzle.

[Mary from Italy]

I forgot to say that I checked the two big Leicester cemeteries, and there are no other Crickmores buried there (the records go up to 1950).

[Oakum Picker]

Thanks Mary, I wouldn't have expected Edward to be there either but it must be him as only 2 Edwards are born at that time & the other dies where he was born.