View Full Version : Certificate discrepancies....?????
In 1995 I bought a marriage certificate for my John Read a watch maker who married Jane Rose Robottom at St Marks Clerkenwell on the 5th July 1846. Her father was given as Wm Rose. The certificate was very faintly printed and difficult to fathom as regards a lot of the other information. Too faint for me to copy and put up to show you.
Imagine my surprise when the LMA records became available on ancestry and I found the marriage again only this time there were discrepancies to the original certificate I sent for.
On the faint certificate it did look as though John the father had a middle name which could have been Thos so I recorded him in my family tree as John Thomas Read. On the copy I read on ancestry the brides father's name has been changed. There is no sign of the surname Rose having been there, instead there is Wm then a small crossing out and the name Robottom.
Could someone check this out on ancestry for me and give me another opinion please. Is the crossing out in Wm Robottoms name then initialised in the space above making it look as though the grooms father is John Thomas Read?
When would this alteration have occurred as it doesn't show up on the certificate printed out for me in 1995?
Is the information written out on the certificates taken from the parish registers as shown on LMA or are they taken from another source?
I've tried not to read your post in too much detail in case I'm influenced by what you said, so have transcribed the cert as I see it below.
As to your last sentence, the GRO copy of the cert would have been made at the end of the quarter that the marriage took place by the vicar of St Mark's, Clerkenwell, taking the information from the certificate in the PRs (ie the one Ancestry has the image of)
July 5 1846 St Mark's Clerkenwell
John Read and Jane Rose Robottom
Full Age (both)
Bachelor and Spinster
Watch maker and -
Spencer St and Napier St
John Thos Read and Wm Hy (Hy crossed through) Robottom
Watch gilder and dead
Both signed and witnesses J(?) Stockham and Hannah Jane Stockham
Merry, this is the certificate although I'm not sure you will be able to read any of it.
http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq56/valerieann116/IMG_zpsipk28kyi.jpg (http://s433.photobucket.com/user/valerieann116/media/IMG_zpsipk28kyi.jpg.html)
Is this her baptism? (I haven't looked at the census to see her age or birthplace!)
Name: Jane Rose Robottom
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Sep 1822
Father's name: William Robottom
Mother's name: Mary Robottom
Parish or Poor Law Union: Finsbury St Luke
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers
William is a jeweller and their address is Ironmonger Row
Merry that one is much easier to read than the cert. It is just that the cert itself - that I paid money for - has so many discrepancies to the LMA record.
The crossing out and the 'THOS' seem to be in a much darker ink which made me think it was initialising the correction to the grooms father's name.
Also I'm not sure about John having Thomas as a middle name as he always had John Read. In the 1841 census he is just shown as John Read and there is a marriage to his wife Mary where he is shown as John Read. In the 1851 census it shows him as having been born in c.1790 in Canterbury, Kent so I will have to start looking in those records to see if I can find a birth for him to clarify things.
I think my confusion with the certificate is that you always think they are gospel, but this one has errors in it and I am wondering if the person copying it out made a few mistakes. I was also surprised that they sent it out so faint it was hardly legible, so it was refreshing to find the LMA record even though it has thrown up a few queries.
Well, I can read the fathers names part - looks like John Thos Read and Wm Rose, so one copied correctly and the other wrong!
Yes that is her Merry, and it was her sister Hannah and her husband John Stockham who were the witnesses to the marriage.
At least you have a great occupation for John Read's father - there can't be too many watch guilders about?
I agree, you have paid good money for a copy of a cert which has a mistake on it, but I'm afraid this is where we take our chances as mistakes do happen and the more times info has been transferred from one place to another the greater the chance of an error happening. I've often found middle names for fathers on certs that don't appear anywhere else, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Merry - I thought that said 'water gilder' but OH has just had another look and said it could well be a watch guilder. Only problem is, if it is my ancestor he should be down as a 'tailor' - he was on the census for 1851 as a master tailor employing 2 men, so don't tell me I've been following the wrong line as far as young John Reads parents go........:eek::eek:
Fingers crossed it is yet another mistake on the records.
John Read a watchmaker and Jane Rose Robottom are shown as my G.Grandfathers parents on his birth certificate so I have that part right at least......:d
I am wondering if the person copying it out made a few mistakes.
Yes they did, but the mistakes were made in 1846, not when you paid for the copy. The modern day clerk only filled in the bit at the bottom of the copy you bought ten years ago. (S)he would have got the image of the copy cert from a film record and just duplicated that onto the paper they sent you.
I'm off out shortly, but will have a look later.
Could you post up the census details you have for the son and his wife Jane so I can see where we are starting from. Are you OK with the Robottom side?
Thank you Merry, that would be great.
I haven't made any headway on the Robottom side as yet.
1851 census - St Lukes
13 New Charles Street
John Read H M 27 clockmaker born St Lukes
Jane Rose Read wife M 27 born St Lukes
James John Read son aged 3 born Hoxton
Rose Charlotte dau aged 2 born Hoxton
Mary Hannah Read dau aged 2 mo born St Lukes
1861 census - St Lukes
56 Ratreu? St
transcribed as REED
John REED 37 clockmaker
Jane " 38
James J 13
Alfred T 6 my ancestor
Rose J 1
1871 census they were living in Clerkenwell in Lower Ashby Street
John was now a watch and clockmaker and they had Mary A, Alfred T and Rose J living with them.
Thanks Val. Good to see Jane's details match with the bap I posted earlier.
Will take a look in about half an hour!
kiterunner
08-05-15, 07:32
John Read's father's occupation (on ancestry) looks like Water-Gilder to me.
kiterunner
08-05-15, 07:46
Here is the baptism of a Henry Thomas Read, 14 Jan 1820 at St James Clerkenwell, son of John Thomas Read, a watchcase maker, and Charlotte. Residence Compton St.
LMA records on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_199035-00147/4715642?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmabirths%26so%3d2%26pcat%3dR OOT_CATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%2 6MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dr*e*d*%26gs ln_x%3dXO%26msbdy%3d1823%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msfng0%3d john%2btho*%26msfng0_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket% 3drstp%26uidh%3dvm5%26msbdp%3d5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
So this looks to be your John jr's baptism:
2 Nov 1823 St James Clerkenwell: John, son of John & Charlotte Reed, Compton Str, watchcase maker.
LMA records on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_199035-00349/5110169?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dLMAbirths%26ra nk%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dr*e*d*%26gsln_x%3dXO%26ms bdy%3d1823%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msfng0%3djohn%26msfng0_ x%3d1%26msmng0%3dcharl*%26msmng0_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d _F0005A5E%257c_F0005A5E_x%252c_F0005A49%257c_F0005 A49_x%252c_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%26uidh%3dvm5%2 6msbdp%3d10%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d10%2 6fsk%3dBED2-47-YMIgAAGFgBFZ0Q-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
John Read's father's occupation (on ancestry) looks like Water-Gilder to me.
Did you think so? Still don't think he's a tailor!
kiterunner
08-05-15, 07:54
1841 census:
1841 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_660_660-0022/7007304?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d184 1UKI%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d 2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dcharl*t*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dr*e*d*% 26gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3dclerkenwell%26gskw_x%3d1%26 uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
St John St(?) Road, Clerkenwell
Jno Read 45 J Water Gilder Y
Henry Do 20 Brush m Y
Charlot Do 40 Y
Sarah Do 20 Y
--
Samuel Davis 60 Watch case m Y
Sarah Do 50 Y
Samuel Do 15 Engraver Y
This looks like the marriage for John's brother, Henry:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31281_A100859-00071/783394?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26gss%3dsfs28_ms _r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3 dhenry%2btho*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dre%253fd%26gsl n_x%3d1%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26ms fng%3djohn%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26mssng0_x% 3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
and a re-marriage:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31281_A100876-00065/646559?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26gss%3dsfs28_ms _r_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3 dhenry%2btho*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dre%253fd%26gsl n_x%3d1%26msgpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26ms fng%3djohn%26msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26mssng0_x% 3d1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
On that Dec 1851 marriage the bride's father is noted as dec'd, but John Thomas Read isn't so hopefully he's on the 1851 census.
lol JT Read is a witness to that marriage, so I hope he was alive at the time!!!!
Marriage for sister, Sarah Elizabeth Read:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31281_A100862-00064/1545711?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dsarah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dre%253fd%26gsln _x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3djohn%2btho*%26 msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002 _x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26M SAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Olde Crone
08-05-15, 08:20
I have three copies of the MC of my 2 x GGPs, from the church, the local register office and the GRO. They all differ in some respect and in the (photocopy) of the church register, the Vicar has transposed their father's names. I can only assume that he then wrote the names correctly in the copy he sent to the GRO!
OC
lol I wondered if JT or Charlotte were with their dau in 1851, but it took a while to find Edward Ash as he and his family are transcribed as Hoh for some reason. I'll submit a correction!
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1519_1520-0345/2815866?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3dedw ard%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn_ _ftp_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%2 6msfng_x%3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26msmng_x%3d1%26msmns_x %3d1%26msbng0_x%3d1%26mssng0%3dsarah%26mssng0_x%3d 1%26mssns0_x%3d1%26mscng0_x%3d1%26gskw%3dst%2bluke *%26gskw_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3d672%26pcat%3d35 %26fh%3d20%26h%3d2815866%26recoff%3d8%2b65%26ml_rp os%3d21&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
and of course no Reads in the household!
kiterunner
08-05-15, 08:29
Here are John Thomas and Charlotte in 1851, surname mistranscribed as Preer on ancestry. I will put in a correction:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1519_1520-0346/2815874?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dms_r_db %26gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msbdy %3d1796%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbpn__ftp%3dNewington%252 c%2bSurrey%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1677657%26msbp n_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5286%257c1677657%257c0%257c%26msbpn_x%3dXO%26ms bpn__ftp_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d_F0005DFB%257c_F0005DFB_ x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005DFC%257c_F0005DFC_x%26dbOnly%3d _F0005C4F%257c_F0005C4F_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005E11%257 c_F0005E11_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005906%257c_F0005906_x% 26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3d_F 0005DFD%257c_F0005DFD_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0006301%257c_ F0006301_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0006867%257c_F0006867_x%26 uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
24 Wellington St, St Luke
John Thomas Reed Head Mar 55 Springer & Liner Surrey Newington
Charlotte Do Wife Mar 53 Midx St Pancras
Oh, well done. I have to go out again now - I've been struggling with Henry!
kiterunner
08-05-15, 08:59
Here they are in 1861, quite difficult to decipher (surname is "Road" on both ancestry and UK Census Online, and it does look like Road on the image)
1861 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MDXRG9_200_202-0013/8740635?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1861%26so%3d2%26pcat%3d186 1UKI%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d 2%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3djohn%2bt%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26 msbdy%3d1795%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbpn__ftp%3dSurrey%2 52c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d5286%26msbpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5286%257c0%257c0%257c%26msbpn_x%3dXO%26msbpn__f tp_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
24 Wellington St, St Luke
Edward Ash Head Mar 38 Goldsmith & Jeweller Middlesex
Sarah E Ash Wife Mar 41 "
Mary E Ash Daur Un 14 Scholar "
Sarah E Ash Daur 11 Scholar "
Emily C Ash Daur 8 Scholar "
Edward J Ash Son 2 "
--
Frederic Spence Head Widower 37 Copper plate Printer Warwickshire
James F Spence Son 5 Scholar Middlesex
William H Spence Son 2 "
Emma Briggs Servant Un 26 Housekeeper "
--
Jno T Read Head Mar 66 Watch Case Polisher Surrey
Charlotte Read Wife Mar 63 Middlesex
kiterunner
08-05-15, 09:18
Here are a couple of possible deaths for John sr: John Thomas Read Apr-Jun 1863 St Luke and John Thomas Read Oct-Dec 1865 St Luke.
Edit - there is a burial for the 1865 one and that one was a baby, but maybe the 1863 one is yours.
Goodness Merry and Kite, you are like whirlwinds.
I am very grateful and feel really foolish that I have been following the wrong branch.
Tomorrow I shall write it all up and go through everything carefully.
Finding that he was born in Surrey, Newington is helpful too. Maybe I shall be able to go back further now.
Glad I'm not the only one OC.....:d
Wow, I can see that now it is nearly bedtime I won't be able to sleep tonight, this will be going round and round in my brain. Many thanks indeed....and to think I nearly didn't write this thread, and if I hadn't I would have still thought that John Read the tailor was my line....it doesn't bear thinking about.....:eek:
I was looking for the marriage of John Thomas Read and Charlotte.
The first bap I can see for their children is Sarah Elizabeth Read born 6 Aug 1817 and bap 19 Oct 1817 at St Botolph Aldersgate. Their address is Glass House Yard and whilst there's no middle name for John, he is a water gilder and we know they had a Sarah With them in 1841 who married Edward Ash giving her middle name as Elizabeth at that time.
kiterunner
08-05-15, 11:56
There is a John Read / Charlotte Masters marriage 3 Jun 1816 at Christ Church Greyfriars, Newgate, London. And a Charlotte Masters was born 9 May 1797 and baptised 16 Jul 1797 at Old Church, St Pancras, daughter of John and Judith. Possible.
I think this could be their marriage:
Christ Church, City of London
3 Jun 1816
John Read bachelor
Charlotte Masters spinster
both otp
by banns
both signed
witnesses H Barren and Sarah Barren
When Kate found John and Charlotte in 1851 Charlotte said she was b about 1798 in St Pancras. I found this entry in Pallot's Baptism Index, though I've not found it in the LMA records yet:
Charlotte Masters bap 1797 father John Masters mother Judith Masters St. Pancras Middlesex
Found it now, they just left the S off Masters. Bap 16 Jul 1797 born 9 May 1797 at Old Church St Pancras. No occ or address given.
This one looks hopeful for John Thomas:
John Thomas Read
Baptism 5 Apr 1795 St Mary, Newington, Surrey father Richard, mother
Elizabeth. No address or occ given.
kiterunner
08-05-15, 12:07
This is the image of that 1816 marriage, with witnesses H Barren and Sarah Barren. Marriage was by banns, bachelor and spinster, both OTP.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31281_A100836-00033/754147?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dLMAmarriages%2 6rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1% 26gss%3dms_db%26gsfn%3djohn%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3 dr*e*d*%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msgdy%3d1816%26msgdy_x%3d1 %26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%26dbOnly%3d_ F0005A5D%257c_F0005A5D_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005A49%257c _F0005A49_x%26uidh%3dvm5%26msgdp%3d5%26mssng0%3dch arl*%26mssng0_x%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Good morning.
Thank you for all that information, I have spent today checking it out and writing it up.
John Thomas and Charlotte Read were living with their daughter Sarah Ash in both the 1851 and the 1861 census I discovered.
I have discovered another baptism for a possible fourth child for them however it is quite late. 30/7/1837 at St James Clerkenwell for a Mary Ann Read daughter of John Thomas and Charlotte Read of 2 Corporation he is a watch case ......carver?
Mary Ann doesn't show up again and I couldn't find a death record for her in infancy.
I havn't yet found a death for Charlotte Read.
I did find a burial though for Henry's first wife Maria Ann Read aged 34 25/8/1850
Thank you for lodging the mis transcriptions with ancestry, I would never had discovered the one under PREER.
Mary Ann Read daughter of John Thomas and Charlotte Read of 2 Corporation he is a watch case ......carver?
Mary Ann doesn't show up again and I couldn't find a death record for her in infancy.
I wonder if she wasn't a baby? On the 1841 census there's a Marian Reed, FS, aged 14 listed at the end of the household immediately before John Read's household. Obviously, she may be a complete red herring!
I saw her too Merry and wondered if she was a relation, but I couldn't find a birth.
Maybe it was Mary Ann.
I will look to see if I can find a marriage for her.
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