Am I confusing two people?

[Lisa Skeels]

I am wondering if I am leading myself up a dark alley with this one and would appreciate it if someone could cast a fresh pair of eyes over John Grove for me please.

Caroline Palmer (1857-1945) was my great, great grandmother, after the death of her first husband (my great, great grandfather) Caroline married John Grove in 1890. Because of differing Census entries the year of his birth (in Swaffham, Norfolk) varies between 1844 and 1850 however, I can only find one John Grove born in Swaffham between those years which would make him John Jacob Grove who died in Swaffham in 1922.

That was fine, and I should have stopped there but.... checking back on John Grove's history I found in the 1881 Census that he was a widow. I then found a marriage to a Sarah Ann Cocksedge in Suffolk and two children. Sarah appears on the 1871 Census as a boarder with her sister in law (also a Sarah Ann - Mason) but there is no sign of John. I have found later entries for Alfred J Grove living away from Norfolk with a Sarah Ann with another name. I can't find any records of a death for Sarah Ann Grove(s) nor a divorce.

Am I confusing people? Where was John in 1871. I have looked and looked and would appreciate some help with this one.

Thank you in anticipation.

[kiterunner]

Is John a widower on the certificate for his marriage to Caroline, Lisa? And what are his father's details on that cert?

[Shona]

John Jacob Grove was born on 21 May 1844 and baptised on 6 June 1844 in Swaffham Parents are Joseph Grove and Frances Cooper.

John, 6, is with his parents and lots of siblings in 1851. Father, Joseph, is an ag lab.

In 1861, he is 16 and still with his parents - occupation is gardener's apprentice.

I wonder if Alfred J is Alfred Joseph?

EDIT: Alfred's middle name was John.

[Lisa Skeels]

I don't have a copy of the Certificate Kiterunner, so perhaps I will be unable to resolve it without? Caroline was a widow, the Grove marriage was Blower/Grove. Thanks for looking.
Lisa

[Lisa Skeels]

Hi Shona

Alfred J is Alfred John however, two of Caroline Palmer/Grove's sons were William John Joseph and Reginald Joseph.

Lisa

[kiterunner]

I finally realise who this Alfred is now I have looked at the 1871 census entry for Sarah! Alfred J Grove, son of Sarah Ann, age 1 in 1871, born Swaffham. Until I looked at that, I thought you were saying that Alfred could be John Grove under another name! I will have another try at it now...

[kiterunner]

Okay, so this is Sarah Ann in 1891, after John married Caroline:
77 Trinity Road, West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Edwin Stokes Head M 58 Lighthouse Fitter Stafford West Bromwich
Sarah A Do Wife M 50 Suffolk Beyton
Henry Do Son S 23 Lighthouse Fitter Stafford West Bromwich
Mary A Do Daur S 20 Adjuster of Spring Balances Do Do
Harriet Do Do 14 Do Do
Sarah A Do Do 9 Scholar Do Do
Silas Do Son 7 Do Do Do
Elizabeth Do Daur 3 Do Do

I can't see a marriage between Edwin Stokes and Sarah at the moment. I think the John who married Caroline is very likely the same one who married Sarah, but I should think it would be worth getting the marriage certificates to check.

[Lisa Skeels]

Your thoughts seem to concur with mine Kiterunner, it just confused me that he was described as a widow on the 1881 census and I can find no death for Sarah. Would it be normal for the entry of "widow" to be made when it was actually a divorce and, is it always possible to find details of divorce from that time.

It also confused me that Sarah was living with John's sister and her family in 1871 and there is no sign of John - could he have been in the Military?

Thank you so much for looking.

Lisa

[kiterunner]

It was quite normal for people to put themselves down as widowed on the census when they had separated from their spouse. I don't know for sure about divorcees as divorce was unusual, but I would imagine the same would be true.

There is a divorce index on Findmypast but I can't find the Groves on it. But it is unlikely that an ag lab would have been able to get a divorce at that time anyway.

I had a look for John on the 1871 census yesterday with no luck. He could have been abroad with the military, or in a hospital under just initials, but it could just be that he was away from home on census night and so not listed at home, but missed out from the census entry of the place where he was staying.

[Lisa Skeels]

Thank you so much for that Kiterunner, it does, perhaps explain the entry. I think I will have to move on now, Caroline is my bloodline anyway.

Thanks again.

Lisa

[Shona]

I agree that divorce would have been unlikely. Couldn't find him in 1871 either.

[Mary from Italy]

Nor could I. I also can't see a death for Mary Elizabeth, his daughter by Sarah Ann, and I can't see her in the later censuses either. Has anyone else found her?

[kiterunner]

Nor could I. I also can't see a death for Mary Elizabeth, his daughter by Sarah Ann, and I can't see her in the later censuses either. Has anyone else found her?

There is a Mary Elizabeth Grove death registered Apr-Jun 1872 age 0 in Burton district. I can't see another likely birth for that one.

[Shona]

Do we have her on the 1911 census to see how many children she has living?

[Phoenix]

I have a Norfolk example of a couple who were incompatible, went their separate ways and then both remarried. Luckily, the marriage certificates, with their jumblings of the truth, sorted things out. Both remarriages were out of county, so there was nobody to prevent them.

[Lisa Skeels]

I am struggling to find her on the 1911 Census although I have found a possible death in September 1929.