Hitting a brick wall ????

[lorraine76]

Is it possible to find illegitimate children's fathers? Ive been trying to search my great great grandfather David Black born 1887 in gatehouse on fleet. On his his birth certificate it states his mother as Mary black and verifies he was illegitimate. From there it disappears until he marry my great great nan Esther attridge. Id love to know did Mary keep him , was he raised by his real dad ect. I know he was in the 2nd life guards.

I have his war records it states mother Mary address unknown and I'm pretty sure it says older brother George??

So any ideas on how or if I can move forward??

[JBee]

I found him on 1911 census in 2nd Life guards but couldn't find his birth entry to confirm place of birth.

Have you got his birth certificate?

Think it will be difficult to confirm his father - unless there was an order for him to pay ie bastardy bonds or kirk session minutes in Scotland.

[kiterunner]

Do you have a copy of his marriage certificate? It is just possible that there could be a father's name on there, though sometimes people gave the name of a stepfather or a made-up father's name.

Could you give us his army number, please? I'm having trouble finding his army records online to check whether it says older brother George.

Also, what information is given about his mother on his birth certificate? Occupation, address?

[kiterunner]

Ah, I've found some information (Soldiers Died in the Great War), showing that he was killed in action 31 Oct 1914 and his service number was 2725, previously 9767 in the Gordon Highlanders. But I still can't find the records that you mention with mother and brother listed? Would you be able to either post a link to them if they are available online, or scan them in and email me a copy, please? I can PM you my email address if you want to do this.

The Soldiers Died in the Great War record has place of enlistment / residence as Cork, so maybe he was brought up in Ireland?

[kiterunner]

Oh, and his marriage certificate is on ancestry with no father's details:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/4779/40815_1831109333_1565-00026/2320544?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dSurreyMarriages%26h%3d2320544 %26ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_ t42141627_p29108531520_kpidz0q3d29108531520z0q26pg z0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t42141627_p29108531520_kpidz0q3d2910853152 0z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

[Shona]

Looking at the Commonwealth War Graves records and medal records, Trooper David Black (2725), born in Gatehouse on Fleet, was presumed killed in action on 31 October 1914. Husband of Esther Black of 52 Somerset Road, Farnborough, Hants. He was 26and had arrived in France on 8 October.

Although he was in the Household Cavalry Regiment in C Squadron of the 2nd Life Guards, he had previously been in the Gordon Highlanders (number 9767). He had enlisted in Cork in Ireland. It looks as if he was a professional soldier to me. Did he marry in Scotland? There is a chance that his father's name appears on that record. I have a (far to large!) number of people born illegitimate in my family tree where the name isn't recorded on the birth record, but is on the marriage record.

It's also worth checking the National Archives of Scotland to see if his mother tried to get financial support for the child.

Edit: Snap, Kate.

[Shona]

The Gordon Highlanders were in South Africa for the Boer War after which they returned to the UK. They were based in Glasgow from 1902, Cork from 1904, Colchester form 1909 and Plymouth from 1913.

Perhaps David enlisted with the Gordon Highlanders in Scotland and then enlisted with the cavalry when they the Highlanders were based in Cork.

From what I can see, David's mother was a farm servant and was living in Back Street, Girthon, when David was born. I think Girthon is in the parish of Gatehouse of Fleet.

Have you searched for subsequent marriage for Mary?

[JBee]

What did you see for place f birth?

[lorraine76]

Thankyou ever so much for your help . He does state in his war records he was from gatehouse of fleet. Im just wondering did mary bring him up or maybe his father or a foster of some sorts. Id love to know who his father was but its looking like it maybe the end of the road as far as he is concerned , even mary seems to have disappeared after she had david , perhaps out of shame??

[kiterunner]

This is the info from the birth registration:

1887 Births in the Parish of Girthon in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright
Name and Surname: David Black (Illegitimate)
When and Where Born: 1887 July Sixteenth 6 h 0m pm, Back Street, Gatehouse
Sex: M
Name etc of Father: blank
Name etc of Mother: Mary Black, Farm Servant
Informant: Mary Black, mother
When and Where Registered: 1887 July 26th, Gatehouse.

About to read through the war records...

[JBee]

Wonder if the kirk sessions might reveal a father?

[kiterunner]

From his army records:

National Archives' reference WO 400/93/2725
BLACK, DAVID 2725

Casualty Form - Active Service
2 Life Guards, No 2725, Rank Tpr, enlisted 13/06/05
3/11/14 reported missing, in the field, date 31/10/14
28/1/16 Acceptance of death for official purposes.

Transfer to Army Reserve, certificate no 230/2LG.
ID number B17
Number 2725, 2 Life Guards, Trooper.
Cause of transfer to the Reserve: At the expiration of his period of Colour Service.
Conduct and character: Exemplary
Trade or employment desired in civil life: Chauffeur
Other qualifications for employment in Civil Life: groom and valet.
Number of GC Badges: Two
Medals and Decorations: Nil
Certificate of Education: 3rd Class
If employed on Staff or Regimental Employ: Officers Batman, 18 months
Signed by David Black 12 Jun 1913
Description on transfer to Army Reserve:
Age 26 years 7 months,
Height 5 feet 11 inches, Chest 40, waist 35, helmet size 7, boot size 10
Complexion fair, eyes blue, hair brown, trade Farm Servant, intended place of residence 176 Albany St, NW1.
Descriptive marks: Scar back of left wrist and front of forefinger and middle finger left hand.


Receipt of 1914 Star acknowledged by E Black 29 Jan 1919.
Receipt of British War and Victory Medals acknowledged by Mrs E Black 12 Mar 1921.

Short Service Attestation:
Name: David Black
Born in the parish of: Gatehouse-on-Fleet, near the town of Castle Douglas, in the county of Kirkcudbright.
Age: 18 years 7 months
Trade: Farm Servant
Have you resided out of your Father's house for three years: No
Have you been an apprentice: No
Married: No
Imprisoned: No
Already in forces: No
Ever in forces before: No
Ever rejected as unfit: No
Willing to be vaccinated: Yes
Corps to be enlisted for: Gordon Highlanders
Signed at Glasgow 13 Jun 1905.

Description on enlistment:
Age 18 years 7 months
Height: 5 ft 10 3/8 ins, weight 143 lbs, chest 36 1/2, complexion fair, eyes blue, hair brown.
After 6 months' service and gymnastic course: Height 5 ft 10 1/4 ins, weight 160 lbs, chest 39 1/2.
Religious denomination: Presbyterian.

Statement of services - number 9767 is crossed out and 2725 written in at a later date.
Service towards limited engagement reckons from 13/6/1905
Joined at Cork on 17/6/1905.
Gordon Highrs: Attested 13/6/05
Appointed 24/9/06
Granted Ser Pay Class II 4d 13/11/06
Granted Ser Pay Class I 6d 2/8/07
Granted 1 GC Badge 13/6/07
Transferred to 2nd Life Guards as Trooper, 24/6/10.
Transferred to Section B, Army Reserve 12 Jun 1913
Rejoined Colours on Mobilization 5/8/14.
Reported Missing 31/10/14.
Official acceptance of death on or since 31/10/14 dated 12/2/16.

Military History Sheet
Home 13/6/05-12/6/13
Army Reserve 13/6/13-4/8/14
Home 5/8/14-5/10/14
Expeditionary Force 6/10/14-31/10/14.

Certificate of education: awarded 3rd Class 13/2/06.

Medal: 1914 Star
Name and address of next of kin: Mother Mary and Eldr Bro' George, address not known.

Married Esther Attridge parish church S Farnborough 21/7/09
Children David James Black born 1910, Jean Black born 1913
Address: 52 Somerset Rd, S Farnboro, Hants.

Regimental Conduct Sheet
Offences - certified no entry.

Medical History
Examined 13 Jun 1905 at Glasgow
Born Gatehouse-on-Fleet, Kirkcudbright
Age 18 7/12 years
Trade: Farm Servant
Height 5 ft 10 3/8 in
Weight 143 lb
Chest 33 1/2 in
Physical Development: Good
Small Pox Marks: Nil
Vaccination Marks: 1, right arm
When vaccinated: Infancy
Enlisted at Glasgow 13 Jun 1905
Stationed Cork 17/6/05 - 1/10/07
Aldershot 2/10/07-23/6/10
London SW 23/6/10-3/5/11
Windsor 4/5/11-30/4/12
London 1/5/12

[kiterunner]

So he actually joined the army in Glasgow, not Cork. Cork was his first posting.

[Shona]

Well done finding the records - I drew a blank earlier. I thought it likely he joined the Gordon Highlanders in Scotland and there's the proof.

There could easily be kirk session records. They had an obsession with sex and it was common for a couple who had an illegitimate child to be hauled before the congregation.

Could there be a baptismal record?

I had wondered if there may have been action taking to seek financial support for the child, as well.

[Shona]

So where is David Black in 1891 and 1901?

[kiterunner]

Well done finding the records - I drew a blank earlier.

I didn't find them - Lorraine sent me a copy. They are on TNA but don't seem to be on ancestry or FMP. It must be a set of records which isn't included in the main WW1 soldiers' papers for some reason.

[annswabey]

His records would have been in the Household Cavalry records (TNA Ref WO400) - a separate series of records from those on FMP and Ancestry (WO363 and WO364)

[Shona]

That explains it.

[Shona]

Oooh - look at this. A website dedicated to Gatehouse of Fleet family history. They have transcribed kirk session records up to the 1860s.

http://www.gatehouse-folk.org.uk/

Might be worth contacting them.

[kiterunner]

So where is David Black in 1891 and 1901?

On the 1901 census there is a David Black age 14 born Anwoth, Kirkcudbrightshire, scholar, at Crossmichael Village as a boarder with a Jane Stewart age 59 and an Elizabeth Black age 15, both born Crossmichael.

I thought at first that this David was the same one who is the son of William and Lillias Black on the 1891 census, but their David's birthplace is St Andrews, Fifeshire (this is all according to ancestry's transcription so could be wrong!) and they don't have an Elizabeth, but Elizabeth Black age 5 and "Daivd" Black age 3 are boarders in Crossmichael in 1891 too, with Jane Kinsbrey age 50, her granddaughter Nelly Kinsbrey age 9 (surname could be wrong as this is from ancestry!), and an Agnes J Campbell age 1 born Kirkcudbright. I have submitted a correction from "Daivd" to "David" despite not having viewed the image.

[lorraine76]

Thankyou ever so much for deciphering his records for me. I had problems reading half of it. Some of it seemed to blend in with other bits of writing.

Its looking like he was 'fostered' out then , I wonder who Elizabeth black is?? She's practically the same age so I'm guessing its not his sister. I'm unsure on why hes put older bro George as next of kin?? Ive been looking on scotlands people and there's a Mary Black aged 16 listed as a dairymaid in the 1881 census. I cant read though who that Mary is with but there's alot of children , nurse , and other farm servants. Want me to send the file??

[Shona]

I've looked at the Mary Black who is a milkmaid, but only the transcription. If you have the original, I'll take a look at it for you.

Don't give up hope on discovering who the father is. You never know what might turn up. My bets are on the kirk session records.

[lorraine76]

Ive just checked Jane Kinsbrey on scotlands people. Its showing nobody with that name but Jane Stewart is. Unless the surname is spelt differently

[kiterunner]

This is the part of the household that was on the page of the 1881 that you sent me, Lorraine, but the rest of it would be on the previous page:

Civil Parish of Girthon
Clachan (continued)
Agnes Jane McCourty Daur 11 Scholar Kirkcudbrightshire Girthon
William Do Son 9 Do Do Do
Mary Do Daur 8 Do Do Do
James Do Son 7 Do Do Do
Peter Sproat Do Son 5 Do Do
Alexander Do Son 2 Do Do
Thomas Bell Do Son 1 Do Do
Esther Carmichael Serv Unm 27 Cook (Domes Serv) Lanarkshire Glasgow
Jane Carson Serv Unm 17 Nurse Do Kirkcudbrightshire Kirkmabreck(?)
Mary Black Serv Unm 16 Dairymaid Do Do
Alexander Blain Serv Unm 16 Farm Serv Wigtownshire Wigtown

[kiterunner]

Ive just checked Jane Kinsbrey on scotlands people. Its showing nobody with that name but Jane Stewart is. Unless the surname is spelt differently

If you search the 1901 census on Scotland's People for David Black, age 14, county Kirkcudbright, district Crossmichael, second person forename Elizabeth, there is 1 match. Same if you search for Elizabeth Black, 15, second person forename David.

Findmypast has their head of household as Jane Stewart, age 29. You would probably be best to do the search on Scotland's People for David as above and view the image to see what the correct details are for Jane.

[Shona]

Kirkmabreck is near Wigton. Not too far from Gatehouse of Fleet.

[kiterunner]

Sorry, "Jane Kinsbrey" is ancestry's transcription for the 1891 but you sent me a 1901 census for a Jane Stewart. To find them in 1891, search the 1891 on Scotland's People for David Black age 3, county Kirkcudbright, district Crossmichael, and they will come up. FMP has the head's name as Jane Kinstrey.

[kiterunner]

This is a transcription of the 1891 that you sent me:

1891 census
Abbey Rd, Crossmichael
Jane Kinstrey Head Unm 50 Seamstress & Keeping Boarders Dumfries
Nelly Kinstrey Granddaur Unm 9 Scholar Kirkcudbrightshire Kells
Elizabeth Black Boarder 5 Do Crossmichael
David Black Boarder 3 Do Girthon
Agnes J Campbell Boarder 1 Do Kirkcudbright

[lorraine76]

Ahhh its jane kinstrey not kinsbury as first stated

[kiterunner]

So this is my transcription of the 1901:

1901 census Crossmichael Village
Jane Stewart Head W 59(? age not clear) Formerly Dom Serv. Kirkcudbrightsh Crossmichael
Elizabeth Black Boarder 15 Scholar Do Do
David Do Do 14 Scholar Do Anwoth

and this is the first part of that 1881 census with Mary Black as a dairymaid:
Clachan, Girthon
William McCourty Head Marr 61 Farmer 600 acres all arable employing 1 man 1 boy 3 women Kirkcudbrightsh Anwoth
Agnes do Wife Mar 42 Farmer's Wife Do Do
Cathrine Do Daur 15 Scholar Do Girthon
Robert Do Son 14 Do Do Do.

Jane Stewart and Jane Kinstrey might not be the same person. Maybe the children were boarded out with the parish (but which parish?) paying for them?

[kiterunner]

Scotland's People has the birth reg of an Elizabeth Black at Crossmichael in 1886.

[lorraine76]

Oh my!!! I purchased the file. Ill send it now

[kiterunner]

My email is broken at the moment. :( Is Elizabeth's mother Mary?

[lorraine76]

It looks that way yes . I also decided to search a george black and would you believe it , there she pops up. illegitimate again in 1881. So i searched george aged 9 in the 1891 census , hes listed as granson aged 9 but with a grandaughter aged 12 called mary black. So ive no idea if once again shes had another. I have sent the files over . Im not sure on the grandparents names John someone

[Mary from Italy]

If Kite's e-mail still isn't working you can send me the files and I'll have a go at deciphering the names. I'll PM you my address.

[lorraine76]

Ive sent them to you also Mary. It may need looking through again. George Black was the only george black around that age. But a sister called Mary would mean -Mum Mary would of had her when she was 14??? And why do the first 2 live with grandparents yet the younger 2 with somebody else. I wasnt expecting anything so complicated but i thank you Kate for helping so much. Its been years of wonder on Davids history , not even my great nan knew anything about her dad as obviously he died in the war when she was young.

There were rumours he was brought up by a nanny paid by some rich man who was the dad , that he ran to cork. But we know now he was posted there.

[Mary from Italy]

I've e-mailed you the details; so according to the 1891 census the grandparents were John Thom, 64, born Colvend?, Kirkcudbright, quarryman, and his wife Margaret Thom, 64, born Tongland, Kirkcudbright. Mary and George are both shown as born at Girthon, Kirkcudbright. The family were living at Midpark, Crossmichael.

There's no maiden name shown for Mary on the birth certs, so I assume Black was her birth surname. Which presumably means that either John and Margaret Thom were the children's father's parents, or Margaret Thom previously had the surname Black.

[Mary from Italy]

In 1871 John Thom, 48, quarryman, born Colvend, Kirkcudbrightshire, was living at Midpark, Crossmichael, with his mother and numerous children, including Mary Thom, 13.

[Mary from Italy]

In 1881 he's still at Midpark, now with wife Margaret, son Angus Thom and granddaughter Mary Black, aged 2.

[Mary from Italy]

In 1861 he's in Crossmichael with his first wife Janet and 4 children.

[lorraine76]

So Im guessing Mary Black aged 2 is Marys first child , she would have been 14ish if she was 16 in the 1881 census Working for the McCourty family as a dairymaid :/ David must have been aware of his older siblings as he stated his only brother george as next of kin along with his mother mary. Address unknown. It really is confusing

[Mary from Italy]

Yes, I should think so.

I'm guessing that Mary was Margaret Thom's child by a previous marriage or relationship; just looking for them in 1871.

[Mary from Italy]

I'm getting one hit on ScotlandsPeople for a marriage between John Thom and Marg* Black between 1871 and 1881 in Crossmichael district.

[lorraine76]

I think i sent the record to you

[Shona]

Seriously impressed, Mary. I looked at some of those records and couldn't tie it all together.

*thumbs up*

[Mary from Italy]

I think i sent the record to you

Yes, got it now, and I've e-mailed you the details, which I'll copy here for the benefit of anyone else who's searching.

Marriage cert:

11 August 1874, Midpark, Crossmichael, after banns according to the
forms of the Church of Scotland

John Thom, quarryman, widower, 47, Midpark, parents William Thom,
gardener deceased and Janet Thom, maiden name Smith (this is the Janet
Smith who was with John in 1871)

Margaret Black, laundress, widow, 47, Midpark, parents John Sommers?,
labourer and Mary Sommers, maiden name Kennan?

The witnesses were Anna Miras? and Hugh Rodgers.

I haven't found Margaret or Mary Black in 1871 yet.

[kiterunner]

My email is working again now. Just catching up. Well done, Mary!

[kiterunner]

Elizabeth's birth registration:
1886 Births in the parish of Crossmichael in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright
Name and Surname: Elizabeth Sarah Black (Illegitimate)
When and Where Born: 1886 February 28th 3h a.m. Midpark
Sex: F
Name & Surname of Mother: Mary Black, Farm Servant
Informant: Mary Black, mother
When registered: 19th March 1886.

[kiterunner]

George's birth reg:
1881 Births in the district of Kirkcudbright in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright
Name and Surname: George Black (Illegitimate)
When and Where Born: 1881 September 19th 3h 30m pm.
sorry, can't decipher name of place, Kirkcudbright
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Mary Black, dairymaid
Informant: Mary Black, mother
When registered: 1881 October 10th

[kiterunner]

1881 Census Midpark, Crossmichael
John Thom Head Mar 64 Quarryman Colvend Kirkcbt
Margt Thom Wife Mar 64 Tongland Do
Mary Black Grand-daur 12 Scholar Girthon Do
George Do Grandson 9 Do Do Do

[lorraine76]

For some reason on scotlands people 1871 census there is a entry for Margaret Black born tongland aged 7??? That doesnt work out right. but that would be marys age at the time

[kiterunner]

1878 Births in the Parish of Girthon in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright
Name and Surname: Mary Margaret Black (Illegitimate)
When and Where Born: 1878 September 21st 6h 0m am Townhead
Name and Maiden Surname of Mother: Mary Black, Farm Servant
Informant: Mary Black, mother
When registered: 1878 October 10th

[lorraine76]

Good Morning all . Up again , Going to try find who Margaret married before John Thom. Which should be Mary's Dad

[Shona]

Margaret Black, laundress, widow, 47, Midpark, parents John Sommers?,
labourer and Mary Sommers, maiden name Kennan?

The witnesses were Anna Miras? and Hugh Rodgers.

I haven't found Margaret or Mary Black in 1871 yet.

Kennan in a Scottish surname. Miras? Perhaps a variant of Moris?

[Mary from Italy]

I've been trying to find a marriage for Margaret Sommers to a Black, with matching census references. I thought I'd found the right marriage, but it led to a family who looked entirely wrong on the censuses (especially as Mary's age and birthplace were all wrong).

However, I've found a very interesting newspaper article, which suggests that I may have found the right family.

This is the article; not sure if we're allowed to paste it onto the thread, Kite?

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000575%2f18940110%2f077

It relates to the fact that Mary and some of her children were given parish relief, and the interesting thing is that the article, published in 1894, says that Mary Black was born in Elgin 36 years ago (ie. about 1858), and moved with her parents to Crossmichael.

Elgin is miles away from Crossmichael, in Moray, which is where I found what I think may be the right family.

[Mary from Italy]

I'm a bit short of time because I'm supposed to be working, so I'll summarise what I've found so far.

This is what I think is the right marriage:

Marriages Mar 1853
BLACK David Liverpool 8b 240
MILLER Alice Gardiner Liverpool 8b 240
SHEARDOWN William Henry Liverpool 8b 240
SUMMERS Margaret Liverpool 8b 240

Lancs BMD confirmed that David Black married Margaret Summers, and the cert's on Ancestry:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2197/englb5617_283-nic-3-45_m_00123/1694869?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dLiverpoolCoEMa rriages%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%2 6msT%3d1%26gss%3dms_db%26gsfn%3ddavid%26gsfn_x%3dX O%26gsln%3dblack%26gsln_x%3dXO%26uidh%3dyc2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

It doesn't give their ages, but Margaret's father is John, and David's a widower, brass founder, father James, a lighthouse keeper.

[Mary from Italy]

A David Black, brass founder, born Scotland c 1812 is in Liverpool in 1851 with a wife Eliza and two children.

In 1861 David Black, brass founder, and wife Margaret (surname transcribed as Blach) are in Elgin, Moray; Margaret's birthplace is Tongland, Gallowayshire, and Mary's is Elgin!

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1861Scotland&indiv=try&h=934450

[Mary from Italy]

And in 1871 Margaret's in Crossmichael with Mary (14) and Harriet:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=1871Scotland&indiv=try&h=828968

[Mary from Italy]

So I think this is more likely to be the correct Mary in 1881 (servant to the Maxwell family in Balmaghie):

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&MS_AdvCB=1&db=1881Scotland&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=mary&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=black&gsln_x=XO&msbdy=1856&msbdy_x=1&gskw=elgin&gskw_x=1&dbOnly=_F00027C6|_F00027C6_x%2c_F0003967|_F0003967 _x%2c_F000279A|_F000279A_x%2c_F0003B89|_F0003B89_x %2c_F00032ED|_F00032ED_x%2c_83004006|_83004006_x%2 c_F0003B8A|_F0003B8A_x&uidh=yc2&msbdp=5&pcat=35&fh=0&h=3130867&recoff=&ml_rpos=1

[lorraine76]

Does that tie into the correct children?? Its a big old mess and I'm back to confused. Could explain why she called a son David if her dad was david. Or do you think there's 2 Mary blacks having illegitimate children at the same time??

I think so far we have Mary , George , Elizabeth and David all fathers unknown.

I'm not sure hows its crossed to the McCourty family in 1881

[Mary from Italy]

Or do you think there's 2 Mary blacks having illegitimate children at the same time??


No, unless anyone can see anything I've missed, I think your Mary is the mother of all the illegitimate children and also the girl mentioned in the newspaper article, born in Elgin, which means she isn't the one who was with the McCourty family in 1881. If you go further forward you'll find her in 1891 and 1901 as a dairy maid or farm servant.

She must have had a very hard life, poor girl.

[lorraine76]

I'm going to sign up to ancestry later on. I'm not able to see the post on findmypast as I'm not a member , genes reunited is just awful to navigate.

I'm guessing she went from pillar to post , its a shame she wouldn't release the fathers names. Maybe they were farm workers to or even head of house?

[Mary from Italy]

I think he or they were more likely to be farm workers or similar. A lot of families have stories about girls being impregnated by the lord of the manor, etc., but it's mostly wishful thinking.

[kiterunner]

I've been trying to find a marriage for Margaret Sommers to a Black, with matching census references. I thought I'd found the right marriage, but it led to a family who looked entirely wrong on the censuses (especially as Mary's age and birthplace were all wrong).

However, I've found a very interesting newspaper article, which suggests that I may have found the right family.

This is the article; not sure if we're allowed to paste it onto the thread, Kite?

http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000575%2f18940110%2f077

It relates to the fact that Mary and some of her children were given parish relief, and the interesting thing is that the article, published in 1894, says that Mary Black was born in Elgin 36 years ago (ie. about 1858), and moved with her parents to Crossmichael.

Elgin is miles away from Crossmichael, in Moray, which is where I found what I think may be the right family.

I don't think the terms and conditions of FMP allow for copying the image over but we are allowed to transcribe it, so here goes:

Aberdeen Journal 10 January 1894

ELGIN PAROCHIAL BOARD
A meeting of the Elgin Parochial Board was held yesterday in Elgin - Mr Robert Young, accountant, presiding.
Among the claims for relief from other parishes one of more than ordinary interest and importance came up for consideration. This was the case of a woman named Mary Black, born in Elgin 36 years ago, and who had gone with her parents to Crossmichael, in Kirkcudbrightshire. On the 10th November, 1891, she was committed to the Kirkcudbrightshire Poorhouse by Samuel Walker, the late inspector of the parish, and a statutory notice on the ordinary printed form was thereupon sent to Elgin, accompanied by a note that a statement of particulars would follow. No statement of particulars came to hand, however, until two years had elapsed, and meantime the woman and three of her children had been maintained in Kirkcudbrightshire Poorhouse, and chargeable presumably to the Elgin Board. Mr Young, as a member of the board, was deputed by the chairman to go to Kirkcudbright, and investigate the case. Meantime a large claim for upkeep and maintenance of the woman and her three children had accumulated against the Elgin Board. Mr Young advised that the Board of Supervision should be communicated with, with the view of taking some action on account of the extraordinary delay on the part of Crossmichael Parish. If Elgin be held liable for those four paupers, the cost already incurred will have amounted to at least £120, and the cost in future to about £60 per annum. This large sum will have the effect of upsetting the calculations of the estimates for the current year, and probably may cause an increase on the assessment for next year.

[Shona]

I think the father(s) of the children are likely to be other farm workers. I have plenty of examples of this in my family tree. Dairymaids had a bit of a reputation as well.

I agree with Mary that family history is full of stories of young women being impregnated by royalty, lord of the manor of some other pillar of the community.

One of my great-grandfathers was illegitimate and was raised by grandparents. Another great-grandfather was an agricultural labourer and got the farmer's daughter pregnant. In this case there are court papers detailing how much he was meant to pay for the upkeep of his child. The records are in the National Archives of Scotland.

Here are some notes I have made in my research:

In rural Scotland in the mid to late 19th century, illegitimacy was not uncommon. There were also a lot of early births with babies being born less than nine months after a couple married.

In the nineteenth century, changing farm practices and the habit of housing male and female farm labourers in neighbouring communal bothies away from the main farm house lead to an increase in illegitimate births.

The situation was further complicated by the Scottish custom of ‘handfast marriage’. If a couple stated before two witnesses that they intended to marry and took hands on it, they were regarded as married. Many of these irregular marriages were never recorded.

If an elder of the kirk heard or believed that an unmarried female was with child, the sinner would be called to appear before the Kirk Session - a sort of parish court which consisted of the minister and church elders - and asked to name the father.

Mostly, the unmarried female fornicators would name the father. Some men would deny responsibility, but normally they would normally admit their guilt. This is particularly so with small, close-knit rural communities where everyone knew was everyone else was getting up to.

The errant couple would usually be called to sit before the congregation and reflect upon their moral conduct. The church could demand a fine or other punishment from the parents of an illegitimate child. If the fine wasn’t paid, the father may be sent away to the army or navy.

The Kirk Session seemed to obsessed with the sexual activities of parishioners.

[Olde Crone]

I agree that the Lord of the Manor was often blamed for illegitimate births and I read an interesting article about this, called, I think, "Six degrees of illegitimacy"

If your daughter returned home pregnant and unmarried, she could be considered blameless if it was her employer or the local Squire - "Everyone knew" a young girl had to give in to them and she received much sympathy. Far more than if it were revealed she had been rolling around on the riverbank with Fred the cowhand!

I do have one twig where it is quite clear that the father was the local bigwig - he was JP among other things and overseer of the poor and he took out a Bastardy Bond against himself, lol. He paid up cheerfully for his (many) illegitimate offspring and these offspring occupied a slightly elevated position in the village and were referred to as "natural son of Thomas Holden Esq" etc.

Yes, the Scottish Kirk Elders were obsessed with sexual sin and the details the girls had to go into were titillating, to be frank.

OC

[Shona]

Yes, the Scottish Kirk Elders were obsessed with sexual sin and the details the girls had to go into were titillating, to be frank.

OC

Below are some snippets from the Girthon Kirk Session records which are transcribed on the Gatehouse Folk website.

Lorraine, you could make contact with the people who run the Gatehouse Folk website. The Kirk Session records transcribed are up to the 1860s. You never know what other records they may have...

1863 5th April Girthon Vestry, Rev Hugh Morton Jack
Mary Bailieff, at present residing with her sister in Gatehouse, confessed she had had a male child in uncleanliness on 1st March last. She produced a letter from Andrew Ronnie, 61 Edge Lane, Liverpool, dated 2nd April 1863 in which he acknowledged paternity of her child. Margaret Bailieff stated that Andrew Ronnie was a married man with a family of children.

1863 12th April Girthon Vestry, Rev Hugh M rton Jack
Isabella McLachlan, residing with her parents in Fleet Street, Gatehouse stated that she had had a female child in uncleanliness on 19th January last. The guilt was contracted in Kirkcudbright and Henry Dorrance, mason is the father of her child. His whereabouts are unknown.

Elizabeth Beach, residing with her father in Gatehouse confessed that she had had a female child on 31st March, last. The father of her child was William Fallas, shepherd from about Newton Stewart.

1863 14th June Girthon Vestry, Rev Hugh Morton Jack
William McLellan, farm servant in Culreoch and his wife Jane Tongue rebuked for ante nuptial fornication.

1863 28th June Girthon Kirk Rev Hugh Morton Jack
John Ferguson, ploughman, Cairnsmoor, Parish of Minnigaff and his wife Frances McKay of Gatehouse rebuked for ante nuptial fornication.

[Shona]

Gatehouse-of-Fleet comes under two parishes - Anwoth and Girthon.

Availability of Kirk Session records according to Family Search:

Anwoth
Minutes 1747–1752, 1770–1836, 1843–1932
Available at the National Archives of Scotland, Edinburgh, record CH2/14.

Crossmichael
Minutes 1735–1801, 1846–1849
Available at the National Archives of Scotland, Edinburgh, record CH2/388.

Girthon
Session Minutes 1694–1702, 1729–1742, 1821–1948
Available at the National Archives of Scotland, Edinburgh, record CH2/1526.

[kiterunner]

I heard that the Kirk Sessions have been digitised but that the digitised versions can only be viewed at the NAS at the moment, with plans to introduce an online subscription service. Not sure when this is likely to be launched though.

[JBee]

I did think OHs ancestors in one village bore all the illegitimate children of that surname in the parish until I read the kirk sessions. It was also interesting to find one man had fathered more than one child to different women as well as his wife!!

He was summonsed to appear but failed to do so yet one of the women had to appear 3 times. However it named the father of the child and where he was residing.

[lorraine76]

Hopefully the kirk sessions become available soon. Or I may have to take a trip in the summer maybe :)

[Nell]

In all the illegitimacy cases I've found in my tree, the babies were brought up by the mother's relatives (parents or sisters) while the mother earned their keep. Only one of the certs names a father - a man who appears on the census as married to someone else and with a less posh job than given on the birth cert. However, since he would have had to appear at the register office to have his name on the cert I'm assuming he did acknowledge the child and hope he paid towards her upkeep.

[maggie_4_7]

Hopefully the kirk sessions become available soon. Or I may have to take a trip in the summer maybe :)

I have looked at some but like all records you need to know what to look for when at records offices.

I can't wait for them to be online and searchable :D