Census lookup llaniestyn 1901 and 1911

[wendythomas]

would it be possible for anyone to look up who lived at Tyddyn Hen in the Llaniestyn census in 1901 and 1911,regards Wendy.

[ElizabethHerts]

1901 Census

John Griffiths Head Unm 73 Farmer of 58 acres Carnarvonshire Melliyrn?
Ann Williams Sister Widow 70 Farmer's sister ditto for place of birth
Mary Williams Niece Unm 38 General Servant Carnarvonshire Llaniestyn

Street Tyddyn Hen
Parish Llaniestyn
Town -
City -
County Caernarvonshire
Country Wales
Registration district Pwllheli
Archive reference RG10
Piece number 5708
Folio 38
Page 7

[wendythomas]

Thanks,they're not the family I'm looking for can you find Tyddyn Hen in the 1911 census?

[Merry]

I tried to find it on fmp and on 1911census.co.uk, but was unsuccessful.

Who are you looking for?

[wendythomas]

I,m not quite sure of the names,it could be Annie Francis Thomas which I had a post about yesterday,her first husband Hugh Thomas had died and she remarried I think ,no idea of the second husband's name.It could be another relative ofAnnie living there I can,t remember what my gran told me years ago.

[ElizabethHerts]

Wendy, I posted this yesterday:

"This could be them in 1911:

11 Freddafydd Penygroes S O, Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Hugh Thomas 42 Priod Labrwr Chivarel Lechi Caernarfon Penygroes
Anne Thomas 37 Priod Caernarfon Married 15 years 1 child born 1 child still living Carnarfon Talysarn
William Edwin Thomas Mab 14 Sengl Paentiwr Tai Carnarfon Penygroes
Anne Maude Sarah Nith 8 mis Caernarfon Penygroes

Census reference RG14PN34418 RG78PN1989 RD630 SD1 ED6 SN249
Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales

Unfortunately it's written in Welsh.

But note the child's surname. "

If this is your family, Hugh was still alive in 1911 and it's pointless us looking for them in 1901 and 1911 as any remarriage by Annie would be after that.

[wendythomas]

It could be that she came to live there after1911,or it was her mother Julia Thomas who lived there,the only thing I know is that it was Annie or a relative of her's.

[ElizabethHerts]

Didn't Annie's mother, Julia Sarah, die before 1881?

Deaths Dec 1879
SARAH Julia 45
Carnarvon 11b 329

[wendythomas]

Oh yes that's her,thanks for that,have you any idea where she's buried?It must have been Annie living there then sometime after 1911.

[wendythomas]

Would you be able to tell me please when her husband Edwin Sarah died?

[Merry]

There's this probably death for Hugh:


Name: Hugh Thomas
Registration Year: 1911
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 41
Registration district: Carnarvon
Volume: 11b
Page: 523

There's this possible marriage for Annie:


Marriages Jun 1919

Hughes Robert D Roberts Carnarvon 11b 977
Jones John J Thomas Carnarvon 11b 977 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Roberts Mary A Hughes Carnarvon 11b 977
Thomas Anne F Jones Carnarvon 11b 977 <<<<<<<<<<<<

and this death:


Deaths Mar 1949
Jones Annie F 75 Caernarvon 8a 113

The above Annie wrote a will:

JONES Annie Frances of Gwyndy Rhedyw-road Llanllyfni Carnarvonshire widow died 24 March 1949 Probate Bangor 14 April to Jane Mary Roberts (wife of Griffith William Roberts). Effects £179 3s 6d

I looked up Griffith William Roberts (first his probate, which led to age at death, which found him in 1911 with wife Jane, which told me how long they'd been married (and Jane's age and place of birth), which led me to the marriage entry which was this one:


Marriages Jun 1906
Jones Ellen Carnarvon 11b 767
Pritchard Owen Carnarvon 11b 767
Roberts Griffith William Carnarvon 11b 767 <<<<<<<<<<
Sarah Jane Carnarvon 11b 767 <<<<<<<<<<<

and checking back on the census I see Annie and Jane Sarah are sisters.

I've not typed out all the Roberts stuff as I'm guessing you have it already, but can do so if you need any of it.

[ElizabethHerts]

Would you be able to tell me please when her husband Edwin Sarah died?

Wendy, you can use the free site FREEBMD:

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

You would find it easily as you know he is likely to be in Carnarvonshire:
Deaths Dec 1897
Sarah Edwin 59 Carnarvon 11b 291

Also from the censuses you know an approximate year of birth. I found him before I think on Cornwall OPC, another free site you can use.

The Sarah family are quite easy to trace. Try yourself and if you get stuck we can help you.

[ElizabethHerts]

This is the site for Cornwall.


http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=823900

The link should give you Edwin Sarah's marriage.

[ElizabethHerts]

1851 Census

Edwin with his siblings:

Reawla, Gwinear, Redruth, Cornwall
Thomas Sarah Head Unmarried Male 25 1826 School Master Mawnan, Cornwall
Jane Sarah Sister Unmarried Female 20 1831 House Keeper Mawnan, Cornwall
Edwin Sarah Brother Unmarried Male 16 1835 Copper Mine Mawnan, Cornwall
William Sarah Brother Unmarried Male 14 1837 Scholar Mawnan, Cornwall

Registration district Redruth
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1916
Folio 475
Page 21

[wendythomas]

Thanks both of you,lots of information there,regards Wendy??

[Merry]

I don't know if it's already mentioned that Edwin Sarah remarried after the death of Julia?


Marriages Sep 1884

HUGHES Ann Carnarvon 11b 579 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
HUGHES John Carnarvon 11b 579
Sarah Edwin Carnarvon 11b 579 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Williams Jane Carnarvon 11b 579

This is their daughter:


Births Sep 1885
Sarah Selina Ann Carnarvon 11b 422


Ann's death:


Deaths Sep 1885
Sarah Ann 34 Carnarvon 11b 288

Selina's death:


Deaths Dec 1913
Sarah Selina A 28 Carnarvon 11b 503

[ElizabethHerts]

I don't know if it's already mentioned that Edwin Sarah remarried after the death of Julia?


Marriages Sep 1884

HUGHES Ann Carnarvon 11b 579 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
HUGHES John Carnarvon 11b 579
Sarah Edwin Carnarvon 11b 579 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Williams Jane Carnarvon 11b 579

This is their daughter:


Births Sep 1885
Sarah Selina Ann Carnarvon 11b 422


Ann's death:


Deaths Sep 1885
Sarah Ann 34 Carnarvon 11b 288

Selina's death:


Deaths Dec 1913
Sarah Selina A 28 Carnarvon 11b 503

I meant to put this in but got distracted!

[Merry]

lol Elizabeth!

I've been trying (unsuccessfully) to work out who Annie's second husband, John J Jones, was, but I was relying on him leaving a will. Unfortunately I can't find one.

[ElizabethHerts]

Wendy, I posted this yesterday:

"This could be them in 1911:

11 Freddafydd Penygroes S O, Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Hugh Thomas 42 Priod Labrwr Chivarel Lechi Caernarfon Penygroes
Anne Thomas 37 Priod Caernarfon Married 15 years 1 child born 1 child still living Carnarfon Talysarn
William Edwin Thomas Mab 14 Sengl Paentiwr Tai Carnarfon Penygroes
Anne Maude Sarah Nith 8 mis Caernarfon Penygroes

Census reference RG14PN34418 RG78PN1989 RD630 SD1 ED6 SN249
Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales

Unfortunately it's written in Welsh.

But note the child's surname. "

If this is your family, Hugh was still alive in 1911 and it's pointless us looking for them in 1901 and 1911 as any remarriage by Annie would be after that.

Anne Maude Sarah's baptism is on FMP.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f004393218%2f00413&parentid=gbprs%2fb%2f897002837%2f1&highlights=%22%22

She was the illegitimate daughter of Selina Anne Sarah.
She died in 1911 (see FREEBMD).

[Merry]

Typing that last post gave me a brain wave that his middle name might be on North Wales BMD. Sadly, the brainwave was short lived! lol NW BMD only has middle initial J for John Jones, but does say it was a civil ceremony, so no point in looking for it anywhere else.

[Merry]

I decided to have another look at the wills and found this, which looks very hopeful:

JONES John Joseph of Tyddyn Hen Sarn Llaniestyn Carnarvonshire died 14 November 1934 Probate Bangor 31 January to Glynne Alun Thomas joiner and Annie May McDowall (wife of Alexander McDowall). Effects £900.

Note the address!!

He was a good deal older than Annie which is why I didn't find him yesterday whilst cross referencing people of a similar age to her:


Deaths Dec 1934
Jones John J 81 Pwllheli 11b 457

I suppose there's always a chance this man is (for instance) Annie's father-in-law rather than her husband (but with the same name!) and living with her when he died. You would need to get the 1919 marriage cert to discover more.

[Merry]

I think I may have found John Joseph Jones before his marriage to Annie Sarah/Thomas. I had wondered if the people named Thomas in his probate entry were to do with his wife as she was previously married to Hugh Thomas, but I think probably not.

(obviously with a name like Jones, it would be risky to take this info below at face value, so maybe we should call it a lead!! lol). Apologies if I spell any of the Welsh place names etc incorrectly and sometimes revert to English because I know what it says!

1901 census:

Garreg Wen, Achaf, Llanllyfni

John Joseph Jones head married 48 slate quarryman b Llanllyfni
Anne Jones wife m 42 b ditto
Thomas J Jones son unm 23 slate b ditto
Ellen Jones dau unm 18 b ditto
David Jones son unm 7 b ditto
Evan J Jones son unm 4 b ditto

The daughter, Ellen, above married:


Marriages Mar 1905
JONES Ellen Carnarvon 11b 573 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Owen Robert Thomas Carnarvon 11b 573
Roberts Lizzie Carnarvon 11b 573
THOMAS William Carnarvon 11b 573 <<<<<<<<<<<<<


North Wales BMD tells me the above couple did marry each other and that the marriage was a civil ceremony. Here they are on the following census:

1911 census:

Graianfryn, Penygroes

William Thomas penteulu 29 priod Saer Maen b Llanwnda (?) Carnarvon
Ellen Thomas gwraig 28 priod six years, two live births, one living, one dec'd b Llanllyfni Carnarvon
Annie May Thomas merch 3 b ditto
Thomas John Jones byrddiwr* 33 sengl b ditto

(I assume byrddiwr meand boarder. I think he is probably also brother-in-law to William Thomas)

Annie may Thomas is mentioned in the probate entry for John Joseph Jones in an earlier post.


Births Jun 1907
THOMAS Annie May Carnarvon 11b 404

Here's her marriage to Mr McDowall as mentioned in the probate entry:

Marriages Sep 1929
McDowall Alexander Thomas Birkenhead 8a 1461
Thomas Annie M Mcdowall Birkenhead 8a 1461

and her death reg:


Name: Annie May McDowall
Birth Date: 10 May 1907
Date of Registration: May 1992
Age at Death: 85
Registration district: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 37
Page: 565


The other person listed in JJ Jones' probate entry is Glynne Alun Thomas, who I think may well be Annie May's younger brother:

Births Jun 1913
Thomas Glyn A mmn Jones Carnarvon 11b 738


Name: Glynne Allum Thomas
Birth Date: 15 May 1913
Date of Registration: Sep 1976
Age at Death: 63
Registration district: Henley
Inferred County: Oxfordshire
Volume: 20
Page: 2040

So, it's not particularly likely that these Thomas's are connected to Hugh Thomas unless it is through a connection that John Joseph Jones and Annie Frances Thomas/Sarah met.

[Merry]

In 1911 Joseph John Jones's wife Ann says she has been married 35 years. If John used his middle name at the marriage then this is probably the one:


Marriages Dec 1875
JONES Anne Carnarvon 11b 887 <<<<<<<<<<<
JONES John Joseph Carnarvon 11b 887 <<<<<<<<<<<
OWENS Margaret Carnarvon 11b 887
ROBERTS Owen Carnarvon 11b 887


There are at least three possible deaths for her between 1911 and 1919 (in 1912 and two in 1916).

[wendythomas]

Thank you very much you have been busy,you've helped me fill the blanks.Do you think you could find out when Hugh and Annie's son William Edwin Thomas my grandfather died,where was he living at the time of his death and if he made a will,regards Wendy.

[ElizabethHerts]

This is his baptism in 1898:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fwal%2f004393218%2f00366&parentid=gbprs%2fb%2f897002511%2f1&highlights=%22%22

There is a William Edwin Thomas dying in Quarter 2 1969.
Caernarvon 8a 520
Born c. 1898

Also this will:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Thomas&yearOfDeath=1969&page=32#calendar

But I have no way of knowing if he's your grandfather.

[wendythomas]

This is most likely to be him,how can I find out who he left the money to?

[Merry]

If you think the above may be your grandfather then getting a copy of the certificate will tell you where he died and may confirm it's the right person if the informant turns out to be a relative you are aware of.

I think we are relying on him dying in his birth county. If you think he might have moved elsewhere then there are loads of death registrations to choose from, especially during the period middle names were not included in full in the indexes (1911-1968).

[ElizabethHerts]

This is most likely to be him,how can I find out who he left the money to?

When you think you have found a will for him you can order a copy from the website via the link I gave you. It would cost £10 so be careful to be fairly sure of your facts before you proceed.

Doesn't anyone living know when he died? It's not that long ago for older members of the family.

[wendythomas]

He lived in the Caernarfon area that is all we know,he and my gran had separeted in the 1940's and everyone had lost contact with him,his children never saw him after the separation,we were wondering who had the money after him,he couldn't have remarried as he was still married to my gran.

[wendythomas]

My gran Laura Catherine Griffith married him in 1932,she was from Sarn Meillteyrn, I think they were married in Pwllheli,would you be able to find anything out? what his occupation was,at some point he worked in Lancashire a place called Great Harwood.

[wendythomas]

They lived in Great Harwood for a while after they got married,the eldest children were born there.

[Merry]

His marriage cert to your grandmother or the birth certs for any of their children would give you his occupation and address at those dates.

[Merry]

he couldn't have remarried as he was still married to my gran.


Do you know they were not divorced?

[wendythomas]

No they were not divorced.

[Merry]

My gran Laura Catherine Griffith married him in 1932,she was from Sarn Meillteyrn, I think they were married in Pwllheli,would you be able to find anything out? what his occupation was,at some point he worked in Lancashire a place called Great Harwood.

His marriage cert to your grandmother or the birth certs for any of their children would give you his occupation and address at those dates.

The marriage (1933 not 1932) was a civil one, so you would need the certificate to learn anything more:

North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1933
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Register Office .............Registers At ........Reference

THOMAS William E ......GRFFITH Laura C .......Dwyfor, Civil Gwynedd - Dwyfor Area RO - DWY/36/E180

Might any of your aunts and uncles have their birth certificates to help you with info from Great Harwood? Have you asked whether anyone has any paperwork belonging to your grandmother?

[wendythomas]

Only my youngest uncle has a birth certificate,but he was born in Pwllheli,my gran had no paperwork at all she got rid of everything to do with her husband,she never spoke about him.His occupation from the certificate was mental nurse.

[Merry]

It looks like you may have to fork out for some certificates if you want to learn more.

[wendythomas]

thanks,that would be the best thing to do.