View Full Version : Giles Theyer
I hesitated to put this up as it seems hideously complicated to me, but that's partly because I've been staring at it for a couple of weeks and getting nowhere. Any help gratefully received - even if it's to agree it's not possible to get any further.
I actually know quite a lot about Giles Theyer, depite not having a baptism or burial for him, but I'll try to keep it brief here. He was probably buried in 1774 at Christ Church, Newgate Street, London (aka Greyfriars), but their burial registers were lost in the blitz and are unlikely to have given an age in any case. His apprenticeship as a joiner in 1710 would indicate a birth around 1695/6 and the indenture names his father as Giles Theyer of Beckenham, Kent, a farmer.
A Giles Theyer married Margaret Salmon in 1682 in Bromley, Kent and Beckenham is in the borough of Bromley. There are no online indexes for Beckenham PRs. The LDS have filmed them and placed them on Familysearch, but they are only available to church members (presumably due to licensing restrictions).
Problem one: One of Giles Theyer junior's apprentices (in 1742) was William Salmon, son of Thomas, late of St Ann Westminster, deceased joiner. There's a baptism for William in 1728 at St Anne Soho, parents Thomas & Elizabeth and a potential marriage for Thomas to an Elizabeth Farrar in 1718 in Westminster. I assume there's some connection with Margaret Salmon, but can't find it.
Problem Two: Samuel Theyer's will of 1725 says he is a gentleman of Stoke Newington and does not mention a wife or children. It does however mention his kinswoman Margaret Theyer, widow, late wife of Giles Theyer, late of Beckenham in Kent, deceased. This is a recent find and it mentions her son Giles and proves I'm on the right lines (hooray). There's also reference to her son John and daughter Margaret, neither of whom I'd heard of before and I know nothing more about them. There's also a kinswoman Elizabeth Flower of Stepney, widow and her only daughter (not named). There are a few candidates to be Elizabeth Flower and I can't work that out, although there's a 1747 will of one who is formerly of Mile End Old Town which might be her. She does not mention a daughter, but names a brother Harward Martin and her sister, his wife Joanna, plus a sister Mary Manning, wife of Benjamin, gentleman. Harward Martin married Joanna Fairhorn in 1724 with the consent of her guardian, Benjamin Manning. He married Mary Harwell in 1723.
There are many other people mentioned in Samuel's will, but none are indentified as kin. Of particular note is Christopher Stephenson of Hackney, gent, who gets a considerable sum, and his granddaughter Charlotte Aldcroft (daughter of Sarah Stephenson and Charles Aldcroft).
I can't make any of these names stick together in a meaningful way. Do you think Samuel would have said explicitly if Giles senior was his late brother or does his use of kinswoman to describe Margaret imply a more distant relationship ?
In searching for Giles (Gyles, Gile, Theyer, Theyre, Thayer, Thayre, Thoyer, Thair, Their and even Floyer and Shoyer), I came across another London family with the name Thayer. They appear to descend from a Humphrey from Essex, but one of them, Samuel has a 1721 will which asks that he be buried at Christ Church. Possibly a coincidence, but it has added to my confusion. So much for keeping it brief - sorry.
kiterunner
04-02-15, 18:52
I think kinswoman does imply a more distant relationship than sister-in-law but I wouldn't like to say for definite. I had one like that in some of the wills I was looking at recently for my tree and she was a cousin of some kind, married to another cousin.
You can view those Kent records on FamilySearch if you actually go to a FamilySearch Centre, despite not being a member of their church.
I'll have a look and see if I can find anything to help with those people...
kiterunner
04-02-15, 19:22
FamilySearch has the baptism of an Ann Thair 6 Jan 1669 at St Botolph Without Aldgate, London, parents Giles and Mary. And an Elizabeth Thyer 6 Oct 1667 same church, same parents' names. Then there is a Thomas Thayer born 2 Mar 1663, baptised 6 Mar 1663 at St Katherine Creechurch, London, parents Giles and Elizabeth. And a Mary Thayer or Thaer baptised 16 Feb 1671 St Botolph Without Aldgate, parents Gyles and Mary. Not much help at the moment I know. Got to go and eat now.
Rick, we are going to Kew on Saturday. There is a Lds facility there, If you'd like us to look?
Rick, we are going to Kew on Saturday. There is a Lds facility there, If you'd like us to look?
I was just about to take you up on that, but on closer inspection they have not filmed the whole lot, just back to 1718 :(
It would be great if you could look at the image associated with this record though.....https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJD2-CFM3 She could be the daughter of Giles junior, so witness names would be great.
Very kind of you to offer - I really appreciate it !!
I think kinswoman does imply a more distant relationship than sister-in-law but I wouldn't like to say for definite. I had one like that in some of the wills I was looking at recently for my tree and she was a cousin of some kind, married to another cousin.
You can view those Kent records on FamilySearch if you actually go to a FamilySearch Centre, despite not being a member of their church.
I'll have a look and see if I can find anything to help with those people...
Yes, in another will kinsman turned out to be 1st cousin, once removed. The nearest FHC to me is a nightmare to get to, but it seems I got over-excited and they only filmed the BTs from 1718, which is no good to me.
FamilySearch has the baptism of an Ann Thair 6 Jan 1669 at St Botolph Without Aldgate, London, parents Giles and Mary. And an Elizabeth Thyer 6 Oct 1667 same church, same parents' names. Then there is a Thomas Thayer born 2 Mar 1663, baptised 6 Mar 1663 at St Katherine Creechurch, London, parents Giles and Elizabeth. And a Mary Thayer or Thaer baptised 16 Feb 1671 St Botolph Without Aldgate, parents Gyles and Mary. Not much help at the moment I know. Got to go and eat now.
I had seen them, but thank you. Mary's name was Boulton (a widow) and the one she married was a gunsmith born about 1626. There's a Giles in Westminster between 1678 and 1710 paying tax in Leicester Fields (now Leicester Square) and he could possibly be Giles senior.
kiterunner
05-02-15, 07:08
A couple of possible baptisms for Samuel:
Samuel Thaire baptised 17 Feb 1678 St Dunstan Stepney, son of Samuel and Ann - but there is a Samuel Thare, son of Anne, buried 4 May 1683.
Samuel Thyer baptised 14 Dec 1675 Christ Church Greyfriars Newgate, son of Samuel and Hannah - but he has brothers Humphrey, John, Thomas, so is the son of the Samuel whose will was proved 1721 and you would think he would mention his brothers in his will, so probably not this one either!
kiterunner
05-02-15, 10:18
A site called Connected Histories has an entry from May 1644 "17. 133. Petition of Giles Theyer to the Committees for the Parliament. That he being possessor of a team in Beckenham was obliged to disburse 5 l . 3 s . 4 d . to redeem his team of horses,"
A couple of possible baptisms for Samuel:
Samuel Thaire baptised 17 Feb 1678 St Dunstan Stepney, son of Samuel and Ann - but there is a Samuel Thare, son of Anne, buried 4 May 1683.
Samuel Thyer baptised 14 Dec 1675 Christ Church Greyfriars Newgate, son of Samuel and Hannah - but he has brothers Humphrey, John, Thomas, so is the son of the Samuel whose will was proved 1721 and you would think he would mention his brothers in his will, so probably not this one either!
I'm thinking that the Samuel/Humphrey/John/Thomas line is going to be related in some way, especially with the Greyfriars connection. They are Citizens & Skinners (although actually apothecaries) and tend to sign their name as Thayer.
The Stepney one is interesting. The father was a scrivener and the mother was Anne Summers, a widow. They married in 1677 and that would potentially put Samuel in the same sort of age range as Giles senior. That baptism and burial is the only child I've found for the couple. That makes him a candidate to be the chap who wrote the 1725 will, especially as his kinswoman Elizabeth Flower is in Stepney.
A site called Connected Histories has an entry from May 1644 "17. 133. Petition of Giles Theyer to the Committees for the Parliament. That he being possessor of a team in Beckenham was obliged to disburse 5 l . 3 s . 4 d . to redeem his team of horses,"
The full story from Mocavo....
May 17. 133. Petition of Giles Theyer to the Committees for the Par-
liament. That he being possessor of a team in Beckenham
was obliged to disburse 51. 3s. 4d. to redeem his team of horses,
they being seized for non-payment of the l0d. tax levied on that
parish; the deficiency was caused by inability to collect the sum
assessed on Dr. Skynner, late rector of that parish, who was then
under sequestration. Older having been passed by the Committee
that money disbursed for taxes unpaid of lands in sequestration shall
be allowed out of the rents from the tenants, or upon account by the
Treasurer of Sequestrations. Petitioner being a poor man prays
that order may be taken for repayment to him of the said sum,
which he cannot afford to lose. Underwritten,
133. I. Ordered that Daniel Shetterden shall repay the money
advanced by Giles Theyer. Dorso,
133. II. Receipt by Giles Theyer for 51. 3s. 4d. received of Daniel
Shetterden. 18th May 1644.
133. III. Ordered, that as the above-named sum was omitted to be
allowed to Mr. Shetterden upon the passing of his former
sequestration accounts, the same be allowed to him out of
such sequestration money as is now in his hands.
I rather like that. He must be too old to be Giles senior, so possibly his father.
I've tried a bit harder to identify Elizabeth Flower tonight. On the assumption that being in Stepney, there's a good chance that there would be some trace of her at St Dunstan's and looking for someone with a daughter who appears to survive and a husband who doesn't, I have two candidates:
George Flower m. Elizabeth Nutkins 1683 in Bermondsey (all other events at St Dunstan's)
Daughter Grace bapt. 1685
Son Giles bapt. 1686/7
George bur. 1704/5 - musical instrument maker of Ratcliffe
Joseph Flower m. Elizabeth Nichols 1694
Son John bapt. 1695/6
Daughter Elizabeth bapt. 1698/9
Joseph bur. 1710 - weaver of Spitalfields (apprentice indenture says he is son of John from Wiltshire - placename looks like Axon)
Still none the wiser which it is or if she's the one with the 1747 will.
I got a bit over-excited yesterday, but I did look this up:
William Moore of Greenwich, widower married
Mary Theyer of this parish, spinster after banns.
They could both sign their names and the witnesses were
John Hugget and Sarah Theyer - who could also sign their names.
I got a bit over-excited yesterday, but I did look this up:
William Moore of Greenwich, widower married
Mary Theyer of this parish, spinster after banns.
They could both sign their names and the witnesses were
John Hugget and Sarah Theyer - who could also sign their names.
Thank you so much :) Giles had a daughter Mary and an apprentice William Moor and his wife at the time of this marriage was Sarah, so that's a result !!
threesheds
14-06-20, 14:37
Hi Rick we have some burial records for a few generations of Thayers in Beckenham of Thayers Farm which they may have owned or rented from a larger landowner.
also see www.beckenhamplaceparkfriends.org.uk follow history links for Beckenham. The page is regularly updated. I recently came across the Giles apprenticed to be a joiner etc.
The beckenham burials have been transcribed by other parties. The link to Flower may be the Flower family of Flower House, Southend, Lewisham and there may be a link to the Valentine family through Valentine Thayer. We have about 4 different ways of spelling the name as well including Gilles Thaires who married in Chiselhurst to a Katherine Rutledge which may well be connected.
Hi Rick we have some burial records for a few generations of Thayers in Beckenham of Thayers Farm which they may have owned or rented from a larger landowner.
also see www.beckenhamplaceparkfriends.org.uk follow history links for Beckenham. The page is regularly updated. I recently came across the Giles apprenticed to be a joiner etc.
The beckenham burials have been transcribed by other parties. The link to Flower may be the Flower family of Flower House, Southend, Lewisham and there may be a link to the Valentine family through Valentine Thayer. We have about 4 different ways of spelling the name as well including Gilles Thaires who married in Chiselhurst to a Katherine Rutledge which may well be connected.
Thanks for this. I did stumble across the burials a couple of days ago and I'm trying to piece them together. It's surprising just how many Giles Theyers there were and I've encountered lots of spelling variations for the surname too!
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