Occupation a Joiner

[tenterfieldjulie]

Shona has found an apprenticeship record for Wm Ivey in 1787, in which he is apprenticed to John Stocker of Frome Selwood as a joiner.
My understanding is that a joiner was able to make more elaborate furniture etc. Would he first have done an apprenticeship as a carpenter?
What age would you likely to be to have an apprenticeship as a joiner?

William married in 1792 at Berkley, but does not give his occupation or age, only of St James parish, Bath.
On his son's 2nd marriage in 1850, he gives his father's occupation as carpenter builder.

William's wife gives her age as 89 in 1851 so born 1762. I was thinking that William would be older than her, but now I am thinking he could younger, hence the age at apprenticeship query. Trying to narrow the field a bit. Thanks.

[Merry]

My understanding of apprenticeships is that boys did one and began at age 14 approx. I would imagine the decision to lace them in a particular trade would depend on several factors, possibly including apparent aptitude for the job.

Yes a joiner would be able to make more complex items than a carpenter - carpentry is done on site whilst a joiner makes up items such as bookcases, cabinets, doors, windows, stairs etc in a workshop. Many of the items a joiner would have made in the past would generally be made in a factory today.

It may not help much, but do you know when their last child was born? I wondered if William's wife had aged a little extra once she got past 80?!! Do you have her age at death/burial or in 1841?

[garstonite]

in those days they were TWO different trades
A Carpenter constructed the Roof / the Floor Joists / the upright large timbers and the vertical large timbers for the Bricklayer to work to ....on site
A Joiner fitted the floorboards / the skirting boards / the Architraves / the windows / the doors /the Staircase... and then fitted them on site

in 1966 I started serving my time in Carpentry and Joinery - a 5 year apprenticeship....I worked in Germany for 3 years in 1979-1981... they have THREE TRADES ...a Zimmerman ( Carpenter ) a Schrieber (a Joiner ) and a Tischler ( windows and Kitchens stairs )....
I hope this little bit of info helps you understand the difference and I am very impressed by Merrys knowledge of this trade ....xxxx

[Merry]

lol Allan! I only know anything about it from having our own house built in 1993/4 and so having to work with all the trades associated with that. as we didn't employ a builder to oversee any of it :D

[garstonite]

AAAAAHHHH - but you took it all in and remembered it ....very impressed...xx

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ...which one isn't for sale for numbers on your front door ?
in an Ironmongers you will only see
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 .........there is no number 9 as it is a 6 upside down ....so ...as a Joiner you have to put the numbers on the doors both side of the street - numbers 1 to 100 ...how many number 6's will you need ???....this should get the cobwebs off ...lol

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Allan and Merry ..

Allan I am trying to work out if he did a carpentery apprenticeship first -
his son called him a carpenter and joiner. If he did two 7 yr apprenticeships he would be much older. He married in 1792 starting his Joiner apprenticeship on 7/7/1787.

These are the census record Merry

1841 Census – St Andrews Road, Trinity Sq, Saint Mary Newington, Surrey -
Ivey Elizabeth age 75 Laundress Not born county
Ivey Betty age 40 Laundress Not born county
Ivey Caroline age 20 Not born county (Amelia Caroline bpt 26/12/1820 – dau of Thomas)
….
1851 Census - St Andrews Road, Trinity Sq, Saint Mary Newington, Surrey (very faint image on FMP)
Ivey Elizabeth widow age 89 age clear (1762) Laundress born Somerset Bickenhill?
Ivey Betty unm age 47 (1804 wrong) Laundress born Oldford, Somerset (near Frome)
Ivey William age 22 glazier born Frome, Somerset ( bpt 21/2/1830 – son of Thomas)
…
Will for Elizabeth Ivy widow of 29 Saint Andrew’s Road, Trinity Square, Newington, Southwalk
Written 20/6/1842 proved 12/5/1852 (I hadn’t noticed when it was written before so this definitely proves that William had died by 1842) so the burial in 1839 at Newington is quite possibly him. Leaves William's carpentery tools to Thomas, Laundry to Betty and bank accounts divided.
..
1861 Census - St Andrews Road, Trinity Sq, Saint Mary Newington, Surrey
Ivey Elizabeth unmarried age 60 – Fundholder - born Frome, Somerset
………….
1871 Census – Rockingham St, Saint Mary Newington, Surrey
Ivey Betty unmarried age 73 (1798 so correct) – Annuitant- born Somerset.

Burial at Norwood Cemetery, Lambeth, Surrey -
Betty Ivey on 26/11/1878 aged 81. (address 91 Rockingham St. Newington)

[Shona]

The apprentice record on Ancestry was dated 7 July 1787.

Ancestry point out that the dates in the records are for when the tax was paid and may be some years after the apprenticeship, not when it started or finished.

[Shona]

The 1839 Pigot's Directory on Ancestry lists William Ivey as a carpenter living at 29 St Andrew's Road, Boro.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1547/GB0950-00085/829015?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dUKCityDirectories%26rank%3d1% 26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d1%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGO RY%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsfn_x%3dNN% 26gsln%3divey%26gsln_x%3dNN%26gskw%3dlondon%26gskw _x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d_F00057B9%257c_F00057B9_x%26uidh %3dfpy&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&rc=985,196,1094,214;1038,239,1117,257;1058,849,114 2,871;1045,1163,1128,1185;1096,1308,1170,1326;1015 ,1435,1053,1453;1009,1838,1094,1860;1043,2006,1125 ,2028;1036,2175,1080,2192;1029,2195,1350,2206;1035 ,2216,1117,2237;182,621,269,644;171,811,255,829;27 7,852,322,870;167,874,251,896;166,1338,248,1360;18 6,1400,231,1419;179,1423,264,1444;189,1717,274,173 8;169,2142,216,2161;191,2184,275,2203;593,283,679, 305;525,326,570,348;577,326,662,348;620,432,697,45 1;680,852,756,871;598,1255,681,1278;592,1799,676,1 819;595,1842,681,1864;639,2054,729,2076;647,2225,6 89,2244

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Shona I didn't know that.

Summary of what I have found on William Ivey - carpenter, joiner and builder -
1787 is William Ivey's first sighting connected to Frome - was as an apprenticeship joiner
Married Berkley, Somerset 1792 to Elizabeth Kemp of Berkley, it says he is of St. James, Bath.
Although Thomas son says born Frome (1795) - baptised at 19 months at Berkley in 1797,
William's children baptised at Frome, possibly Oldford, 1798, 1799, 1805, 1807.

Dies before 1842 when his wife says in her will that she is a widow and leaves William's carpentry tools to Thomas. She had a laundry at Newington, Lambeth 1841 to 1851. So sometime between 1807 and 1842 they left Somerset for London.

The only early record connecting Ivey family with Frome is a baptism on 5/4/1686 of Joannah, daughter of Hugh and Elizabeth, with a note he is Mr Hugh.

As the family were Baptist, they unfortunately may not appear in the regular records.

I missed Shona's post 8.

[Olde Crone]

Well! I live and learn! I always thought a carpenter was the cream and the joiner was the bloke who sawed up wood to fit skirting boards etc.

My late FIL was a journeyman carpenter and spent seven or more years making bookcases to fit a grand library somewhere in Bucks. When he finished the job, the owner was so impressed he gave FIL a £50 note as a tip. this was in the early 1960s and my in-laws were not delighted but absolutely terrified by this $50 and didn't have a clue how to get rid of it!

(Not relevant here, but pauper apprenticeships started at 10, not 14 and continued to 21)

OC

[Merry]

AAAAAHHHH - but you took it all in and remembered it ....very impressed...xx

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ...which one isn't for sale for numbers on your front door ?
in an Ironmongers you will only see
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 .........there is no number 9 as it is a 6 upside down ....so ...as a Joiner you have to put the numbers on the doors both side of the street - numbers 1 to 100 ...how many number 6's will you need ???....this should get the cobwebs off ...lol

24?

[Phoenix]

24?

40?

[garstonite]

well done Phoenix ...very impressed ...most people say 24 - they forget 60 /61 /62 /63 /64 /65 /66 /67 /68/69
90 /91/92/93/94/95/96/97/98/99

so Merry - don't worry ...9 out of 10 say 24 ...it's a little trick question ...but a bit of fun..hope it brings a smile to your faces ...
so on 100 doors you need 40 number 6's...a big percentage

[Merry]

lol!! That's what comes of not writing anything down!!

[tenterfieldjulie]

Oh I am learning all the time Allan OC Merry thank you ..
Shona you win the prize though - that puts him at the same address in 39 as his wife in 41 and so the death in 1839 at Newington is most likely him .. yeah
Tracing my friend's Ivey tree back to it's roots is going well. All she knew was her grandfather's name John. ... Thanks Julie

[Shona]

...but pauper apprenticeships started at 10, not 14 and continued to 21)

OC

I thought tax was not due on pauper apprentices, though. As William's master paid tax, it suggests he was not a pauper apprentice.

[Olde Crone]

Shona

Sorry, didn't explain myself proprly, that's what I meant by "not relevant here" meaning this couldn't have been a pauper apprenticeship for the reasons you said. I was just trying to point out as general info, that apprenticeships could also start age 10 (and I am SURE I have seen some younger than this, although they were mostly servants and I'm not sure quite what an apprenticeship meant, other than that they were bound until they wre 21, very handy for both workhouse and master).

OC

[garstonite]

Apprenticeship deeds also HAD TO HAVE another Guarantor that if that company went bust another company would finish that apprenticeship ....so if Mr Smith went bust - Mr Jones would take that boy on to complete his time at that trade ....this was written in to stop "slave labour" - ie ...boys couldn't be "used "for 3 - 4 years as cheap labour...