Some aussie research help needed please

[Val in Oz]

As some of you know I am caught up with some family worries at present so would appreciate some help for an elderly friend who sent me an email this morning. I will C&P the information he has given to me in the hopes that some of you may be able to discover some more information for him. I am not very au fait with Aussie research myself, so pointers in the right direction would really help.

During WW II, we had the privilege of getting to know well, because he spent most of his leaves staying with us, a bomber navigator in the RAAF. He was named John Forbes and I call him a 'second cousin' because he wasn't actually a blood relation, his mother being an adopted daughter of a great uncle of mine; let me explain.

My paternal grandmother, nee Margaret Butler, had an elder brother, Alfred who emigrated to Australia at some date in the late 19th Century; the only dates that we have for him are his birthdate of 5.3.1861 and the fact that he sent a Christmas card to his mother, my great-grandmother, in 1894 from Australia; we have that card still. Alfred married a lady, I'm pretty certain of Australian birth, called Louisa with whom my parents corresponded very regularly from the 20's until she passed away, I'm pretty certain in the late 40's. Alfred and Louisa, at a date which I do not know, adopted a girl called Mona BUT I've no idea if she changed her surname to theirs. Mona then, again at a date of which I've no record, married a Mr Forbes. They then had three children, two boys and a girl. The eldest was John whom we came to know so well in 1942-5; I've no recollection of the names of the other children. John was very similar in age to me (born 1924) so I'd deduce that Mona and Mr Forbes were married early in the 1920's. Aunt Louisa, as she was always called, was widowed, I'm pretty certain, throughout those 20-30 years in which she and my parents were in touch by the post. Louisa lived in Oakleigh, Melbourne and I believe that John's parents, and family of course, lived in Bendigo

My enquiry therefore is whether you or, if not, somebody else could find out about these folk, my 'second cousin'.

Oh, I forgot. After surviving all those dangerous bombing trips across Germany. John Forbes returned home and a few months later was killed in a motor car accident. All our links with the family were lost, except those with the lady who was Aunt Louisa's carer who continued to write to my parents until she died, I believe in the late 50's.

[Val in Oz]

Before you go looking for an Alfred Butler, let me go looking back in my correspondence as I am sure that wasn't his name, it must be his sisters married name. Ah, I remember - he was Alfred Allsopp/Alsopp. I hope that hasn't confused you already.....:eek:

Oops again, no that person was a Thomas Allsopp, and he sent a Xmas card to his family in the UK signed 'to my sister Margaret from Thmas W Allsopp dated 7th December 1892.

Now I don't know if is me who is confused or whether George (my contact) is confused.
I will write and ask for more information I think.
But maybe we could follow the John Forbes line for the time being.

[Mary from Italy]

An Alfred Butler married Louisa Hirst in Victoria in 1888, but I haven't found an obvious emigration for him yet.

I've had a quick look at the newspapers to see if I can find John Forbes' accident; I haven't yet, but I've only had a quick look around 1945.

It's a bit of a pain to search because the newspapers have been scanned and OCR'd.

You could point your relative to the site so he can search himself if he has a computer:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper

Four men born in Vic called John Forbes, with or without middle names, served in the RAAF in WW2:

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/NameSearch.aspx

It's not John Ronald Forbes, because he was KIA in 1943.

[Mary from Italy]

According to the Vic BDM indexes, a John Forbes died in 1946.

No hits come up if I put Mona as his mother's name, but the father's name appears to be John.

[Mary from Italy]

Ah, found something at last: Louisa's death notices.

BUTLER.-On August 25, Louisa, beloved wife of late Alfred, and devoted mother of Mona (Mrs. B. W. Forbes, Sunbury), darling nana of John (R.A.A.F.), Joan, Duncan, and Ron, aged 79 years.

BUTLER.-On August 25, at 62 Atherton road, Oakleigh, Louisa, loved wife of the late Alfred Butler, loved mother of Mona (Mrs. Forbes), loved aunt of Alfred, Dorothy, Elsie, and Phyllis. -Peacefully sleeping.

BUTLER.-On August 25, at her residence, 62 Atherton road, Oakleigh, Louisa, dearly loved sister of Alice (Mrs. Kelly, Essendon), loving auntie of Muriel (Mrs. Thomas) and Reg Pietzsch (Second A.I.F.), loved great-aunt of Allic, Ted, and Murray Thomas.

BUTLER.-On August 25, at 62 Atherton road, Oakleigh, Louisa, dear aunty of Phyllis and Les Young, Bruce and Beverley.

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic), Monday 27 August 1945

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/972717

So you were right about it being Alfred Butler.

[Mary from Italy]

So John is probably John Alfred Forbes, born in Sunbury, Vic:

http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=R&veteranId=1023450

[Mary from Italy]

Mona Evelyn Butler appears on the electoral roll in 1914. She's a dressmaker, living in Moore Street, Bendigo.
Mona Evelyn Forbes appears on the electoral rolls from 1924-1937.
1924: Macedon St., Sunbury, home duties; no other Forbes at that address.
1931/1936/1937: same address, with Duncan William Forbes.
She then appears on the electoral rolls as Monica Evelyn Forbes from 1942-1972.

Duncan died in 1949:

FORBES.—On February 23, at his residence at Sunbury, Duncan William, beloved husband of Mona, loving father of John, Joan, Duncan, and Ronald aged 69 years. —Rest in peace.

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.), Thursday 24 February 1949

The Vic BDM index shows a death for Monica Evelyn Forbes, parents Alfred and Louisa, in 1974. The online newspapers don't go up to that date yet, and there isn't a death notice listed for her in the Ryerson Index.

[Mary from Italy]

According to the Vic BDM index, a John Alfred Forbes, parents Duncan and Monica, died in 1973.

I think your relative must have made a mistake with his death. I've checked the electoral rolls again, and Monica Evelyn Forbes and John Alfred Forbes, RAAF, were both living at 32 Macedon Street, Sunbury in 1972.

[Val in Oz]

Mary thank you very much, there is a lot there that I will pass on and let George sift through to see what he thinks is relevant.
I will return when I hear back from him. I am very grateful as my mind won't settle to anything at present.

[Mary from Italy]

Acording to the BDM index, a Duncan William Forbes married Mona Evelyn McNamara in Vic in 1924, and according to his service record, John Alfred Forbes was born on 2 Dec 1924.

However, I'm getting a bit confused; according to the Australian death index on Ancestry, a John Alfred Forbes died in Sunbury in 1937 aged 49 (ie. born about 1888), and his parents were called Duncan and Monica McNamara. I can't find that entry in the BDM index, though.

[Mary from Italy]

Very sorry to hear you have family problems, Val.

[Mary from Italy]

Alfred Butler's death notice is rather intriguing, assuming it's the right person:

DEATH Of MR. ALFRED BUTLER.
Deep regret is expressed in Sunbury at the death of Mr. Alfred Butler, which took place on the 9th inst at Perth. Mr. Butler left Sunbury some time ago for Westralia, but, through ill-health and ill-fortune, failed to achieve that prosperity which has crowned the efforts of so many of our adventurous fellow citizens. Hearing that Mr. Butler and his family were in straitened circumstances, his Sunbury friends subscribed for him and forwarded the money to Perth: but their generosity was of no avail to him, except to cheer his last moments with the reflection that the dear ones he left behind him would not be quite destitute. Mr. Butler was well known here as a man of quiet, unassuming manners, and a favourite with all who knew his real worth.

Sunbury News and Bulla and Melton Advertiser, Saturday 12 September 1896

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66882666

For some reason the death's listed in the Vic but not the WA BDM index.

[Val in Oz]

Thank you again Mary, I have forwarded that on too.

[Mary from Italy]

Many have been the bright and hopeful pictures painted by those who are in the West in their letters to their relations; but the friends of Mr Alfred Butler will receive with deep regret a rumour that he is at present stranded in an unknown land. We learnt late in the week that Mr Butler, his wife, and little child were in very straitened circumstances, and it is gratifying to know that immediate action was taken by his friends to render him assistance. We hope with our readers that there is no truth in the rumour, but the news was apparently received from a reliable source. Notwithstanding Mr Butler's ill-luck, several young men are packing up, and next week will see Messrs James Cahill, M. Cahill, and Charles Mounsey on the voyage.

Sunbury News and Bulla and Melton Advertiser , Saturday 22 August 1896

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/66882608

[tenterfieldjulie]

Sunbury News and Bulla and Melton Advertiser (Vic. : 1892 - 1900) Saturday 29 August 1896
Sir,
Will you kindly permit me, through the medium of the Sunbury News, on behalf of Mr. and Mrs. Butler, to thank the many friends who have so nobly responded to the appeal for help.
I am sure the originators of the appeal must feel gratified at the success of their effort. The practical sympathy of the Sunbury friends shown at such a time will cause a thrill of gladness to the hearts of those for whom that sympathy was intended; and coming at such a time will tend to materially lighten the burden that has been pressing upon them for so long.
Probably the experiences of the past six months will never be fully known to any but themselves, but the weariness and the anxiety have been intensely felt, and it will be many a long day before the effects of the suffering through which they have passed will be entirely removed.
The latest advice from Perth states that Mr. Butler is slightly better, and there is hope that the worst is over; but it is evident that great care and attention will be needed in order to further the progress towards convalescence.
We believe this can be better accomplished by their early return to Victoria, where they will again be among their own kin.
The money so kindly subscribed by the Sunbury friends has been forwarded to Perth, and we may now reasonably hope to see them back again to the more congenial climate of our own colony.
Trusting you will give this acknowledgment a place in the columns of your paper, and thanking you in anticipation,
Yours, etc., E. KELLY. Kensington, 27/8/96

[tenterfieldjulie]

I have found in NSW that sometimes when a person dies and there is no death registered, it can be found in the Coroner's Inquest .. I am wondering if this happened here.
Although 1896 was the year WA records became more official. So maybe he slipped through the cracks.
I will contact my cousin in WA and see if he can offer any other suggestions.

[tenterfieldjulie]

It appears that Mr. Butler was a boot and shoe maker in Sunbury from 1893 to 1895 -

Adverts in "Sunbury News and Bulla & Melton Advertiser" 26/8/1893 and 19/1/1895 -
"Alfred Butler, Practical Boot and Shoe Maker (Late Foreman, E Quails, London).

It is possible he is also the A. Butler who was the Scorer for the Junior Cricket in the same paper as above dated 16/9/1893.

[tenterfieldjulie]

"Deep regret is expressed in Sunbury at the death of Mr. Alfred Butler, which took place on the 9th inst at Perth." Sunbury News and Bulla and Melton Advertiser, Saturday 12 September 1896.

"For some reason the death's listed in the Vic but not the WA BDM index. "

Mary posted the above. I am wondering if the newspaper report was wrong about where Albert died. Maybe they used the money to come back on the train and he died in Vic. The only way you would know for sure was to buy his death certificate. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

Ignore my posts 16 & 18 - I found the problem, a typing mistake in the index:
Alfred's name is registered as Aflred Butler, Father Samuel, Mother Margaret Allsop,
death registered in WA, ref No. 1594, he is aged 35, birth year C1861.

I think you will find the death in Victoria is a different person. Some people have him on Ancestry trees named Alfred Blanche Butler and married to Lousia Hirst, but he is much older and is the wrong person.

[Val in Oz]

Thank you everyone for your help, just amazing.
Does anyone have any idea why he would have moved from Victoria to Perth?
Was it the lure of gold, or just brighter prospects in the west.
It seems a long way to travel on a whim.
The Allsop surname certainly links to other research I have previously done for my friend.
I will wait now until I hear back from George, I am sure he will be overwhelmed by your help.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Things were bad in the Eastern States at that time Val. My family went from here to the goldfields. Many many people died on the goldfields from starvation and exhaustion. In some weeks for every 4 who died, only one was named. Whether they went to Coolgardie/Kalgoorlie and returned to Perth is not mentioned. It wasn't that they were greedy but times were really tough. I must go google that time frame and see what was happening .. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

As I thought this is what happened that caused the Depression in Australia -

"Between 1890 and 1893, a severe economic depression caused the closure and collapse of many banks. The Federal Bank of Australia ran out of money and closed. In April 1893 the Commercial Bank of Australia, one of Australia's largest banks, suspended operations.

Twelve other banks soon followed. Those who had put their savings into building societies, as well as those who had borrowed heavily to fund their own speculative investments, found themselves in desperate straits.

Businessmen, pastoralist farmers and land speculators weren't able to pay their overdrafts, and thousands of small and large investors were ruined."

[tenterfieldjulie]

Probably as Alfred was a small businessman he had people who didn't pay their bills.

In those days farmers/pastoralists only got one big cheque a year and when crops failed or when you sold your herd, sometimes it cost more to get stock to the saleyard, than what you got when you sold them. Hence the long paddock.
During the depression in the 1930s, I know many who only paid their bills once a year, couldn't pay their store bills.
Even today in the rural areas when the farmers have drought, they can't pay their bills and small businesses fail.
The big supermarkets are the only ones who make money, they charge huge prices for meat no matter what the grower gets.

[Val in Oz]

Brilliant Julie, thank you very much indeed.

[Mary from Italy]

Acording to the BDM index, a Duncan William Forbes married Mona Evelyn McNamara in Vic in 1924, and according to his service record, John Alfred Forbes was born on 2 Dec 1924.

However, I'm getting a bit confused; according to the Australian death index on Ancestry, a John Alfred Forbes died in Sunbury in 1937 aged 49 (ie. born about 1888), and his parents were called Duncan and Monica McNamara. I can't find that entry in the BDM index, though.

I think I can guess what's happened here.

If the JAF born in 1924 died in 1973, he would have been 49. I think that date is right, and Ancestry's accidentally inverted the figures, putting 1937 instead of 1973. You'd need to get the cert to check it out, though.

[Mary from Italy]

I've now found Mona's death on Ancestry, which gives a bit more detail: Monica Evelyn Forbes died in Essendon, Victoria in 1974, aged 83, parents Alfred Butler and Louisa Hirst.

[Mary from Italy]

Well done for finding the correct death for Alfred, Julie.

And thanks for the info about the depression era - I had no idea things were so bad in the Eastern states in the 1890s. That'll explain why two of my people ended up in Coolgardie while all the rest of their family was in NSW.

[Mary from Italy]

Louisa Butler's death entry on Ancestry shows that she died in 1945 aged 78, parents James Hirst and Janet Smith. The matching birth is probably Louisa Hirst, born Sunbury 1867, parents James Hirst and Jessie Smith.

[tenterfieldjulie]

My grandparents were married in Coolgardie, first 3 children born there, but came back here where my father was born. I still have distant cousins there. All of them avid historians. I lived in Perth in the late 1960s, but had never visited the goldfields until 2013 when another cousin took me there. Amazing place with fascinating cemeteries. It was an extremely wealthy place when the boom took place, but so many died just walking there from Perth. There is no natural source of water and still today it is piped from Perth. You follow the big white pipe line on the straight road from Perth. There are no trees, there were miles of sandalwood scrub, but they were all cut down to feed the fires that fuelled the smelters. From the air you can see lots of yellow dams which are the remains of the tailing? dams from the mines.

[Mary from Italy]

Goodness, that sounds grim.

I'm surprised my people made it, having been brought up in the city (Bradford, Yorkshire).

They're two of my Inmans; Ada was only 11, and her brother George was 7, when they emigrated to NSW with their widowed mother in 1885. 3 other brothers and sisters had emigrated earlier, as had numerous aunts and uncles. They all settled in the New England area, around Armidale, Walcha and Uralla, except for Ada and George, who somehow made their way to WA. Not sure when they arrived, but they were both there by 1901, after a spell in Bell's Swamp near Armidale, which was probably no picnic, either.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Mary it amazes me that people survive there today. It has the most amazing red dirt. I have a wonderful photo of my grandmother's family, with all the women in long white dresses. How they kept them clean with red dust and no water is amazing.

[tenterfieldjulie]

A little bit of interesting trivia re Sunbury .. quite a contrast from the wild West ..

Re Sunbury "In 1874, Clarke's son, William, built a mansion, which resides on an estate named "Rupertswood", after his own son, Rupert.

The younger William, Sir William as he was to become, was the president of the Melbourne Cricket Club, and it was through his position that the touring English cricket team came to spend Christmas of 1882 at Rupertswood.

On Christmas Eve, the English team played a social game of cricket against a local team, which they won.

Lady Clarke took one or more bails, burnt them, and interred the Ashes in a small purple velvet pouch, which she presented to the English Captain, Ivo Bligh.

She proposed that the ashes be used as a perpetual trophy for matches between the two countries. Later the remains of the burnt bails were placed in a small urn.

The Ashes have since become one of the world's most sought-after sporting trophies."

[tenterfieldjulie]

Val I went looking again on Trove to see if I could find a John Forbes car accident/death and I could not find anything.

I have found two letters that were written by Duncan Forbes from the Boer War which I will email to you.

I also found the death notices of Duncan's parents in which they list all the children and there were a lot of them.

The following are two for John Forbes Sen who died in 1919.
The first is published in the WA papers because two of Duncan's sisters lived there.

Western Mail (Perth, WA: 1885-1954) Thursday 3 July 1919
DEATH - FORBES. On June 28, 1919, at Sunbury, Victoria, John Forbes, the beloved father of Mrs. F. T. Farrelly, Mrs. N. D. Kidson, and the late Les. Forbes. R.I.P

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.: 1848-1957) Monday 30 June 1919
DEATH – FORBES. On the 28th June, at his late residence, "Foyers" Macedon street, Sunbury, John, the dearly beloved husband of Susan Margaret, and loving father of Kate (Mrs. Bell), Jessie (Mrs. Farrelly, Cottlesloe, W.A.), Angus (decd.), Duncan, Jack, Finlay, Aeneas (decd.), Joan (Mrs. Kidson, Northam W.A.), Will, Clarence, Clement (decd.), Theobold (decd.) May his soul rest in peace.

I had a look for John Alfred Forbes' death on FMP and I found John Alfred Forbes age 49 (B1924) died 1973 Sunbury Vic father Duncan Forbes and mother Monica McNamara and that is the same as what Mary from Italy found. I think your cousin did very well to remember what he did. I know that it is very easy to get family stories mixed. He could also have been told that by a member of the family who had it mixed up too.

[Mary from Italy]

I've found Alfred's parents' marriage: Samuel Butler, shoemaker, married Margaret Ann Allsop at St Bartholomew's, Bethnal Green, on 25 Oct 1858.

The certificate's on Ancestry:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?MS_AdvCB=1&db=LMAmarriages&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=2&gss=ms_r_db&gsfn=sam*&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=butler&gsln_x=XO&dbOnly=_F0005A49|_F0005A49_x&dbOnly=_F0005A5D|_F0005A5D_x&dbOnly=_F00058A6|_F00058A6_x&uidh=yc2&mssns0=allsop*&mssns0_x=1

I haven't found a baptism for Alfred so far, and I haven't found his family on the censuses yet. I've found his father Samuel with his parents Noah and Mary in 1841, but nothing after that.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Well done Mary.
On an Ancestry tree Samuel is listed as on the Census in 1861 and 1871 at 17Thomas Rd, Mile End Old Town, Stepney, Middlesex, England. I tried to get it to open up for me but it wouldn't oblige.
Did we ever find anything more for Samuel's marriage than 1888 Victoria?

[tenterfieldjulie]

I found them in 1881 at 48 Canal Road, Mile End Old Town, Stepney.

Mother Margaret is named Coles, born London City, age 38, so must have remarried.
The children all born Stepney, the boys are very industrious, Alf 20 Boot clicker, Henry 18 Boot Blocker, Will 16 Fire Hose Maker, Geo 14 Book Binder Office Boy.

[Val in Oz]

Oh wow, you two are certainly amazing researchers, thank you so much I would never have found a quarter of that.

I had an email from my cousin this morning who is amazed by your finds and very grateful too. He said he isn't sure where the story came about the car accident but it must have been mis-information. He thinks it was the Mother's carer who continued corresponding with the family in the UK after her (the Mothers) death.

The letters from the Boer War would be wonderful Julie and I look forward to receiving them, many thanks. Wherever did you find them?

[Val in Oz]

Julie the letters have arrived and are brilliant. Thank you, I have printed them out so that I can send them on to my cousin, I know he will be thrilled. I see they came from the State Library. Well done to you and Mary for all your research

[tenterfieldjulie]

Val so pleased that you and your cousin are happy with what we found.

The letters were on Trove, but I did have to tidy them up a bit lol

John Forbes died 1919, Duncan Forbes died 1949, so at end WWI and WWII.

I am wondering if John Alfred Forbes was in car accident on the Air base and therefore it wouldn't be publicised in the media. It would be on his file, but I had a look at the index and it isn't a public file and so you would have to pay for it to be opened. It is possible that if John was in a car accident and then his father died, the two became muddled.

Were you aware that Alfred Butler's mother remarried?
Julie

[Val in Oz]

No I don't think we knew that Julie, do you know who she married by any chance?

I am wondering if John Alfred Forbes was in car accident on the Air base and therefore it wouldn't be publicised in the media. It would be on his file, but I had a look at the index and it isn't a public file and so you would have to pay for it to be opened. It is possible that if John was in a car accident and then his father died, the two became muddled.
I will pass that on Julie thank you.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I just found her with the children and she had a different surname. I will see what I can find.

[Val in Oz]

Thank you Julie but please don't go to any more trouble, you have already spent so much time on this on my behalf.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Oh I only have h.... k to do lol
No I cheated this time and so I can't confirm .. but her name of the census is Coles.
There is a public Ancestry tree which has Samuel dying 13/5/1873 Mile End
and Margaret marrying on 6/11/1876 St. Thomas Stepney to a John George Coles.
Hugs Julie

[Merry]

John George Coles.


James George Coles, according to the GRO index. :)

[geniebug]

Just butting in here, not to help you with the Butlers, as you are both doing an amazing job. I wanted to say that quite a few of my South Australian ancestors travelled to find work in West Australia(by ship to Fremantle) - then somehow got to the goldfields, or other parts of WA. It was around the 1880-1900 period.

[Merry]

James George Coles, according to the GRO index. :)

This is the 1881 census for Margaret after she married Mr Coles, according to the tree owner Julie mentioned:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_484_487-0645/15416794?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1881%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_C ATEGORY%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dmarg*%26gsfn_x%3d XO%26gsln%3dcoles%26gsln_x%3dXO%26gskw%3dmile%2ben d%26gskw_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_ x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303A%257c_F000303A_x%26dbOnly%3d _F0003039%257c_F0003039_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%257 c_F00027B9_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032DB_x% 26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[Mary from Italy]

Just out of interest, I've been trying to find Alfred's emigration, now that Julie's narrowed it down to between 1881 (census in UK) and 1888 (marriage in Vic).

There are a few possibilities among the emigrations to Queensland; not all of them show birthplace or occupation, and none of the ages are very accurate.

The closest in terms of age is an A Butler aged 26 travelling on the Rotomahana, bound for Melbourne, in 1886 ,but he's listed among the passengers due to disembark in Dunedin. He's listed under "labourers and domestics". There are quite a few references in NZ newspapers to an Alfred Butler, but there's absolutely no information to prove or disprove whether he's your man.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast

[Val in Oz]

OMG every time I come online you have added more. This is just amazing.

I received an email from my cousin George this morning which I wanted to pass on to you. I have all the printed information, including the letters from the Boer War, and your lovely summary Julie in an envelope ready to post off to him, so now I have his address I will do that this morning. He should receive it early next week.

You have all been so helpful, thank you again.

Dear Val,
*
It's verging on incredible!* My thanks just don't seem to be enough, not only to you but to these friends of yours.* But* then, every time we've got to know Australian folk they turn out to be wonderful, friendly, lively people whom it's a total pleasure to know.* And, you do everything so quickly!
*
As*I guessed,*I did*think of*other items almost as soon as my last e-mail had gone.**Do you have the date of the marriage of Alfred and Louisa? And,*am I right in thinking that all folk arriving in Australia from Britain are registered in some list which one can access? If you had those two items, it would totally complete the story of Alfred.
*
Again, thanking you for everything and so looking forward to the duncan Forbes data,
*
Yours,
*
George.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Hi Val, Cousin George is right, the two missing pieces are immigration and marriage.
Finding his immigration is going to be difficult, as Mary from Italy said, the indexes really don't give enough information. I would have thought that Alfred would have been listed as a boot maker or something similar. Having a trade would have been something I would think he would have used for immigration.

Possible locating of the 1888 marriage would be if it could be found listed in the local paper, or if it comes up in an Ancestry tree for the Hirst family. Otherwise you would have to buy the cert. I will have a quick down to the library and see if I can find the Vic fische to see if it gives a location .. last time I think they were AWOL.

I found an Ancestry tree had Alfred Butler married Louisa Hirst 1/12/1888 at Sunbury, Vic. I have emailed the C of E at Sunbury and hope that we get a confirming answer, or advice as where the records can be found.