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hi , I am still trying to establish ellen callen s mother ciceley callen's maiden name . Ellen born in 1824 princess st wigan . Can't go any further than this , I have been told that a marriage of William grimshaw and ellen calland in 1844 are the same person , but the dates don't tally . Plus I have got ellen callen's child's record from Glasgow and she is definetly Callen on the certificate and not calland as seen in a marriage of 1844 all saints . I don't know if it was common to change names , but maybe someone else will know I need to establish her parents roots , as there are plenty of callens in Scotland , Any help gratefully received . Thanks
Welcome to the forum! :)
There are two baptisms for babies named Ellen Callen dau of Wm and Ciceley, though at the moment I can't find a burial for the first child:
Ellen Callen b 1 Feb 1824 bap 17 Apr 1824 Wigan, All Saints, father William Callen, mother Ciceley Callen
Ellen Callen b 1 May 1825 bap 17 Jul 1825 Wigan, All Saints, father William Callen, mother Cicely Callen
The second Ellen was born baptised from Princess St.
Other children who appear to have been born to this couple are:
Margaret 1827
Elizabeth 1829
Richard 1832
Ciceley 1837
Margaret 1839
William 1841
Peter 1845
There may be others as I didn't try every permutation!
So we might expect them to have married about 1824 and they should be on the 1841 census and hopefully later censuses too.
This may be their marriage:
Marriage: 31 Aug 1823 St Elphin, Warrington, Lancashire, England
William Calland - (X), This Parish
Ciceley Walker - (X), This Parish
Witness: Edwd Fell; William Webster
Married by Banns by: Jonathan Topping Curate
Register: Marriages 1818 - 1824, Page 275, Entry 823
Source: LDS Film 1562960
What child was born in Glasgow?
I am moving this thread to our Research board.
kiterunner
07-01-15, 07:12
These names seem familiar to me - I think we need to read through this old thread:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=20749&highlight=calland
Also this one:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15271&highlight=calland
Callen / Calland would not be a case of changing their name, just people pronouncing / spelling it differently. A lot of people could not read and write in those days, so they would not be able to tell the clerks etc how to spell their name.
I don't know if it was common to change names
it's not so much a change of name but when people were illiterate names were spelled how they sounded by those writing them down, so Callen/Callan/Callard etc could easily be the same people.
Must dash now....
kiterunner
07-01-15, 07:35
Bearkins, when you say that the dates for Ellen don't tally, do you mean because she is 21 on her marriage in 1844 but she was really a bit younger? It was quite common for people to claim to be 21 when they got married because it meant they didn't need to get their parents' permission.
I don't know if it was common to change names, but maybe someone else will know I need to establish her parents roots , as there are plenty of callens in Scotland.
Names could vary a great deal. As others have commented, this wasn't intentional as large numbers of people couldn't read or write at the time in questions. Curates, vicars, priests or whoever wrote down the names as they heard them spoken.
In Scotland, matters were further complicated in that names were transliterated from Gaelic in many parts of the country. Added to this, there was a process of anglicising surnames. For example, McGilthighnich became McIlheany and eventually Shaw. Mac prefixes were dropped from some names. If there is a Scottish connection, then you would also need to look at McCallan as a variant of Callen.
These names seem familiar to me - I think we need to read through this old thread:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=20749&highlight=calland
Also this one:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15271&highlight=calland
Thanks Kate.
The marriage record for Wm and Ciceley and the baptisms for their children are now available as images on ancestry.
Looking at the other threads, this is what appears on the 1841 census:
Ince
William Calland, 40, coal miner
Cicely, 35, labourer
Elllen, 15, coal miner
Mary, 15 labourer
Elizabeth, 13
Richard, 10
Thomas, 6
Margaret, 2
All born in county.
I can find the following births/baptisms on Ancestry:
Ellen, born 1 Feb 1824, bapt 17 April 1824
Ellen, born 1 May 1825, bapt 17 July 1825
Margaret, born 10 March 1827, bapt 8 April 1827
Elizabeth born 7 Feb 1829, bapt 5 July 1829
Ciceley, born May 1837, bapt 13 June 1837
The 1851 census states that Ciceley senior's place of birth is Upholland, Lancashire.
There are two baptisms for Ciceley Walker in Upholland. The first is in January 1803, but this child was buried in February. the second was baptised on 25 March 1804. Father's name is Richard.
Ellen, born 1 Feb 1824, bapt 17 April 1824
Ellen, born 1 May 1825, bapt 17 July 1825
Margaret, born 10 March 1827, bapt 8 April 1827
Elizabeth born 7 Feb 1829, bapt 5 July 1829
Ciceley, born May 1837, bapt 13 June 1837
There are some more in post #2 but I didn't put the full dates as I was supposed to be making breakfast!
Hi , thanks for all the info , now need to establish where wlm callen was born , that may prove a little more difficult . Any help gratefully recieved . Thanks
hi , ellen callen and William grimshaws sons James and William were born in Glasgow in 1854 and 1856 . I think they may have had another child in Scotland . As I seem to recall visiting who my mother called aunt in Glasgow in the 50s and 60s , and my father would take us up sometimes to visit , but I have no recollection if it was Lanarkshire or not . They seem to move back to live in skelmersdale as they appear on the 1861 census . Thanks
Thanks to all of you for the much needed help , I'm afraid I don't look out of the box sometimes and stick rigidly to dates names etc ,and then I become unstuck . So thanks for all your pointers with regards to names changing etc .
Hi , thanks for all the info , now need to establish where wlm callen was born , that may prove a little more difficult . Any help gratefully recieved . Thanks
Ciceley was a widow in 1861, so we only have William's place of birth from the 1851 census to go on. He said he was 55 and born in Ashton. There are several Ashtons in Lancashire: Ashton in Makerfield, Ashton on Ribble and Ashton under Lyne.
The best fit I could find is this one:
William Calland born 31 Dec 1795 bap 24 Jan 1796 Wigan, Lancashire, second son of William Calland of Haigh, weaver and Ann, dau of Thomas and Betty Lea.
Wigan is about 4 miles from Ashton in Makerfield.
However, my knowledge of the geography off Lancashire is around zero, so I'll leave this for others to take a look before looking for further entries for this family, in case anyone else thinks another entry might be more likely.
hi , ellen callen and William grimshaws sons James and William were born in Glasgow in 1854 and 1856 . I think they may have had another child in Scotland . As I seem to recall visiting who my mother called aunt in Glasgow in the 50s and 60s , and my father would take us up sometimes to visit , but I have no recollection if it was Lanarkshire or not . They seem to move back to live in skelmersdale as they appear on the 1861 census . Thanks
Yes, the 1861 census you mention shows three children were born in Scotland. (Copied from one of the old threads):
So this is the 1861 census entry that we're looking at, just for easy reference:
Warrington Rd, Wigan, Lancashire
William Grimshaw Head Mar 32 Coal Miner Lancashire Wigan
Ellen Do Wife Mar 40 Do Do
Margaret Do Daur U 15 Cotton Factory Worker Do Do
William Do Son 6 Scholar Scotland
James Do Son 4 Scholar Do
Ellen Do Daur 2 Do
Sicily Do Daur 2 mo Do Ince.
The 1871 census shows two further children, Mary 8 and Peter 5 both born in Ince, Lancs They were living at Upholland, Lancs at that date.
Surely you wouldn't have been visiting the same people 100 years later though?!!
kiterunner
08-01-15, 12:57
Ciceley was a widow in 1861, so we only have William's place of birth from the 1851 census to go on. He said he was 55 and born in Ashton. There are several Ashtons in Lancashire: Ashton in Makerfield, Ashton on Ribble and Ashton under Lyne.
The best fit I could find is this one:
William Calland born 31 Dec 1795 bap 24 Jan 1796 Wigan, Lancashire, second son of William Calland of Haigh, weaver and Ann, dau of Thomas and Betty Lea.
Wigan is about 4 miles from Ashton in Makerfield.
However, my knowledge of the geography off Lancashire is around zero, so I'll leave this for others to take a look before looking for further entries for this family, in case anyone else thinks another entry might be more likely.
There are a few other Ashtons in Lancashire as well as these, but I haven't found a more likely baptism yet. But Haigh is the other side of Wigan from Ashton in Makerfield.
kiterunner
08-01-15, 13:08
There are some ancestry trees which have the William born 31 Dec 1795 down as marrying an Esther and dying in 1843 in Ince, but they all seem to be in a complete muddle and copied from each other, so they could well be wrong. There was a child called William Calland who died in Ince in 1843.
There are some ancestry trees which have the William born 31 Dec 1795 down as marrying an Esther and dying in 1843 in Ince, but they all seem to be in a complete muddle and copied from each other, so they could well be wrong. There was a child called William Calland who died in Ince in 1843.
...plus William is on the 1851 census.
kiterunner
08-01-15, 14:05
...plus William is on the 1851 census.
Yes, but we don't know whether the William on the 1851 census is the one born 31 Dec 1795 in Haigh - that's what we're trying to prove or disprove.
There are a few other Ashtons in Lancashire as well as these
I had a bad feeling that might be the case!
Yes, but we don't know whether the William on the 1851 census is the one born 31 Dec 1795 in Haigh - that's what we're trying to prove or disprove.
It was an observation on the trees which had bumped him off prematurely!
kiterunner
08-01-15, 16:23
It was an observation on the trees which had bumped him off prematurely!
Sorry, Shona, I'm still not with you - are you saying that the William who married Esther was still alive on the 1851 census, as well as the William who this thread is about?
I just have to ask if it's possible that William Callen Ellen's father could have been born in Glasgow ? And not in Ashton in Makerfield as there are a few William Callen s born there ? I definetly had a aunt or a relative in that area . That's why I think that William could have been Scottish .?
Anything is possible, though he did say born in Lancs in 1841 and born in Ashton Lancs in 1851.
Whilst in theory it's possible he was born outside of Lancashire, I don't understand your reasoning for wondering about this - you say you had an aunt or relative in Glasgow, but what does that have to do with a man born in the 18th Century?
hi , One of the calland clan is trying to establish ,ann lea's birth place from post 13 , she is saying the only one that firsts is a one in Calne wiltshire In 1775 ,which is a lon way from lancashire . i also found a birth of a ann lea in 1776 in ashton under lyne ? have you any ideas . There isn't many births to fit that comes up on Family search ,but there may be more on Ancestry . Thanks
So you are looking for the baptism of this bride:
Marriage: 19 Jul 1785 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Calland - Haigh
Ann Lea - Haigh
Witness: Peter Grimshaw; Gerd. Bancks
Married by Banns by: Page Godfrey
Notes: [Bride signed Ann Ley]
Source: LDS Film 1885689
I don't see why she would be born about 1775/6 because that would make her about 10 when she married! Perhaps you have a burial for her with her age recorded? If you do, are you sure it's the right Ann Calland?
So we are looking for a baptism for an Ann Lea, parents Thomas and Betty (from post #13).
I would expect the issue to be that there are far too many possible baptisms rather than only one in the wrong county and at a date that doesn't work!
I've only looked at Lancs OPC (where I'm assuming you will have looked already) and did ten years either way of 1760. That gave me five matches, so you would need to use your local knowledge to decide if any are not likely geographically and also try and establish what happened to each of these Anns to see if you can rule any out (eg if any of them died young etc).
Baptism: ? Jan 1749/50 St Laurence, Chorley, Lancashire, England
Ann Leigh - Daughter of Thomas Leigh
Register: Baptisms 1709 - 1768, Page 45, Entry 29
Source: LDS Film 93703
Baptism: 8 Jul 1753 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Anne Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee
Abode: Pendleton
Source: Manchester Central Library
Baptism: 31 Mar 1754 St Laurence, Chorley, Lancashire, England
Ann Leigh - Daughter of Thomas Leigh
Register: Baptisms 1709 - 1768, Page 50, Entry 8
Source: LDS Film 93703
Baptism: 19 Sep 1762 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Turton
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 6 Feb 1767 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thomas Lee
Abode: Bedford
Register: Baptisms 1757 - 1769, Page 110
Source: LDS Film 1885648
hi ,did you also see the one in calne wiltshire 1765..?
what they are saying calland clan in the U.S if she was born far away from lancashire how would she end up there , the problem is ,i have no idea .
i also found a birth father thomas in newcastle under lyne . around 1766 so like you say there are many possibilities .thanks
hi ,did you also see the one in calne wiltshire 1765..?
No. Why would I be interested in that? It's far too late and in an unrealistic part of the country.
EDIT see post 33 re date.
i also found a birth father thomas in newcastle under lyne . around 1766
What was he doing in 1766? Not being baptised I hope! Not if his daughter was married in 1785!
Why would you be looking in Newcastle under Lyme when there are dozens and dozens of Thomas Lea entries in Lancashire?
what they are saying calland clan in the U.S if she was born far away from lancashire how would she end up there , the problem is ,i have no idea .
She doesn't need to have been born far away though, does she?
I think people need to grasp the fact that sometime it can be very difficult to work out the correct line for their tree, especially with common names and ordinary occupations in a given area. It can take years and years to get to the bottom of the data sometimes. Maybe even decades. Very often you never will.
Oh and BTW, the Ann Lea, dau of Thomas and Betty Lea who was bap in Calne in 1765 was buried in 1774 in Calne.
Hi ,i thought she could be born in in 1765/66as it would have made her 20 or 19 .
we are talking about ann married in 1885 , her birth is 1765 , i think we are getting mixed up somewhere . The clan calland are looking at her birth .
we are talking about ann married in 1885 , her birth is 1765 , i think we are getting mixed up somewhere . The clan calland are looking at her birth .
1785 not 1885.
Yes, sorry I went from the date you gave in your first post today which says:
she is saying the only one that firsts is a one in Calne wiltshire In 1775
So, you should have said 1765. I didn't notice the actual date was 10 years earlier because I was fed up with being taken on a wild goose chase to Wiltshire when she was probably born in Lancashire.
Anyway the Calne girl died in 1774, so forget her.
will explain to them , that shes out of the picture , and like you said it may be one of those things that we may never find her true birth . as long as they know . i think they should look closer to lancashire . But that's up to them .
Hi ,was checking the births on family search without a first name , and came across a birth reg in Wigan , for a mary Lea ,base daughter of elizabeth 1776 abode scholes , it's a stab in the dark , but mother Betty could be a elizabeth , and Mary could be a mary ann . Scholes is approx three or four miles from Haigh , which is a higher end of Wigan . What are your thoughts on possibilities ? thanks
But her father is Thomas Lea, according to post #13. Also a baptism in 1776 is too late isn't it? (making her aged 9 at her marriage)
You don't mention whether you have managed to eliminate all the baptisms I suggested in post #25.
Of those five baptisms, I would say these two are the most promising:
Baptism: 19 Sep 1762 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Turton
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 6 Feb 1767 St Mary the Virgin, Leigh, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thomas Lee
Abode: Bedford
Register: Baptisms 1757 - 1769, Page 110
Source: LDS Film 1885648
If she is the first of these then she would be about 23 at the marriage in 1785. Bolton le Moors is under 10 miles from Wigan. The mother is recorded and she has the right first name.
The second baptism above, she would have been a minor at the marriage, which isn't mentioned, so perhaps less promising. Leigh is a couple of miles nearer to Wigan. From that baptism we don't know the name of Ann's mother.
However, I have not attempted to eliminate any of the baptisms I've suggested in post #25. Perhaps you could confirm if you have been able to discount any of them.
hi , I looked at the first baptism and that doesn't look too bad parents are correct . Turton abode is just outside of Bolton . Haigh being about 9 miles away . so it is a possibility.
So you need to look at burials and marriages in Bolton and surrounds to see if there's a possibility of Ann dying or marrying there which would eliminate her.
Do you have a burial age for your Ann? Do you know when she had her last child?
hi ,sorry ,i've no idea ,but will check what you've mentioned later to see if i can eliminate her thanks
hi I have found her last son Robert She had him in 1800
hi ,There are a various burials of ann in Wigan from 1848 to 1865 . as there isn't any ages at death on family search .
You could pick up the age at death for those registrations from the GRO site.
I hadn't realised she had lived long enough to be on a census. Can you tell me anything about her census entries?
Hi. I'm sorry I haven't done that i've only using family search at present and am experiencing a lot of problems with loading pages . She could have died earlier , but those I have mentioned only come up . I'll try and check again . I usually access ancestry at my local library and obviously can't do that at present as it's much better . it has lots more info
Why don't you use Lancs OPC? Family search is very poor for burial records. You are just accessing post 1837 death registrations.
There's this one which is a fairly good fit, given the person giving the info may not have known her exact age (Lancs OPC):
Burial: 28 Nov 1848 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Ann Calland -
Age: 77 years
Abode: Aspull
Cause of Death: Decay
Buried by: Howard St. George Offg. Minr. Curate of Haigh
Register: Burials 1848 - 1853, Page 37, Entry 294
Source: LDS Film 1885702
Unfortunately I can't find her on the 1841 census to see if who she is living with (if anyone) throws up any clues.
Her death cert may well give the name of her husband (regardless of whether he was still alive or not) if she was a married woman.
CALLAND, ANN 77
GRO Reference: 1848 D Quarter in WIGAN UNION Volume 21 Page 482
There's also this possibe one for her husband (Lancs OPC):
Burial: 17 Aug 1825 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
William Callen -
Age: 57
Abode: Scholes
Cause of Death: Sudden
Buried by: G. Goodwill
Register: Burials 1824 - 1830, Page 51, Entry 405
Source: LDS Film 1885701
Again, perhaps very slightly too young, but we don't know the accuracy of the record.
hi ,yes they look good possibilities. what could i do to establish that it's her ? could i order the death certificate,and if so would it show anything else to help ? thanks
could i order the death certificate,and if so would it show anything else to help ? thanks
As I said in post #45:
Her death cert may well give the name of her husband (regardless of whether he was still alive or not) if she was a married woman.
So, if the death cert says widow of William then it still could be her, but if it says wife/widow of someone else then it's not her. Same if it says she is a spinster. The person who registered the death could be a clue, esp if it's a married daughter. Unfortunately early death registrations usually don't have details of the relationship of the informant.
I'm not sure you should be attempting to order certs at the moment though. Have a look and see what Lancs BMD say on their website. The GRO have asked people to delay making orders until a later date wherever possible.
will check the b.m.d s lancashire
hi merry , hope you are keeping well and in good spirits . One of my friends who has some connection to my tree to ann lea and william calland Post 25 . on one of their trees it shows the family of Thomas lea and betty lea . has most of the children born in Bolton East lothian . It shows ann lea born 19/sept /1762 . elizabeth lea 21 april /1765 east lothian , Mary Lea , 8/oct /1771 . and another ann born 1765 i think Wigan . it's strange as one of the girls seem to be born in wigan , and the others in east lothian , it looks like maybe one of the ann passed away . it's quite puzzling to me , i wonder if you have any ideas ? i have tried to find births on FMS but have not come up with anything concrete . thanks
kiterunner
25-02-21, 17:11
What is FMS, please?
kiterunner
25-02-21, 17:19
Lancashire OPC has Ann Lea baptised 19 Sep 1762 at St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, parents Thos Lee and Betty, abode Turton, so it looks as though your friend's tree is showing the wrong Bolton.
Their tree has ann being born in Wigan . and the rest in Bolton west lothian . .but like you i thought it was strange ,that they would move to scotland later and Bolton lancs would be the bolton closer . i saw the post on Family search tree for the callands .i will look at it again if i can thanks .
It also has Thomas lea born 1737 Bolton east lothian . so i will check him out in bolton lancs .
hi , i've searched for thomas's birth in Bolton and the children on parish clerks but can't see them , and can't seem to get a thomas lea on family search . 1837 in bolton lancs . i have also looked at the name lee , just in case . i'll check wigan as well .
hi. I see you looked at the surname Lee , i found a Martha 1769 in Harwood which is part of Bolton ,Baptism 1769 thomas and betty Lee . So it looks like as you said the bolton is not scotland but lancs . i will see if i can find thomas as a lee instead of lea .
You have the wrong century in post #55.
I'm just putting all the entries together for clarity. I would doubt it's the same couple having another child baptised in Wigan in 1765 (your post #50). These are all from Lancs OPC, so I don't know why you can't see them:
Marriage: 11 Mar 1760 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Thos Lee - Weaver, This Parish [Bolton]
Betty Brooks - Spinster, This Parish [Bolton]
Witness: James Burton; John Rothwell
Married by Banns by: Thos Place
Register: Marriages 1758 - 1762, Entry 184
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 18 Feb 1761 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
John Lee - Son of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Breightmet
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 19 Sep 1762 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Ann Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Turton
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 21 Apr 1765 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Harwood
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 19 May 1767 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Betty Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: G.B
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 4 Aug 1769 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Martha Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Harwood
Source: LDS Family Search
Baptism: 8 Dec 1771 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Mary Lee - Daughter of Thos. Lee & Betty
Abode: Elton
Source: LDS Family Search
There's this baptism for 1737, below. I'm not saying it's the right Thomas as how does anyone know how old he was when he married? Does anyone have a burial for him? There's a baptism for another Thomas Lee in 1739 in Bolton who would need to be eliminated. Probably others too, I only looked at a five year spread.
Baptism: 26 Sep 1737 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Tho. Lee - Son of William Lee & Jane
Abode: G B
Occupation: Baker
Source: LDS Family Search
The 1737 baptism I posted must be wrong as the child seems to have died:
Burial: 12 May 1740 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Tho. Lee - Son of William Lee & Jane
Abode: G.B.
Occupation: Baker
Source: Microfilm of register at Manchester Library
There are several burials for people called Thomas or Betty Lee at Bolton, so it could take quite a bit of work to see if they can be untangled. Several don't have an age at death so they may not help with knowing when Thomas or Betty were born and nothing will tell you where they were from.
thank you so much for all your help. i will tell the owner of the tree that the children were certainly not born in scotland , and pass the info on . thanks
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