View Full Version : The same Matthew?
I'd be really grateful for any opinions on this.
Luce Donat died 1653 aged 78 (ie born 1575), and was buried at Newington, Kent. According to her MI she was the widow of Matthew Donat, vicar of Newington and had been married twice, the first time to John Stace (I've just found a likely marriage 1598).
Luce Stacy and Matthew DONAT married 20 Feb 1615/16 at St Andrew Holborn (top RH page):
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1624/31281_A100958-00066/5190837?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAearlyparish%26rank%3d1%26n ew%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn% 3dmatthew%26gsln%3ddonat%26dbOnly%3d_F0005A49%257c _F0005A49_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%2 6uidh%3d584&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Between July 1616 and Nov 1623 five children were baptised at Wendover, Bucks, father Matthew DAGNALL (no mother's name). Luce's son John from her first marriage lived in Wendover from at least 1627.
According to FMP Matthew Danot died in 1626
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fd%2f83278433
First question - does it seem reasonable that Matthew Donat is Matthew Dagnall? The dates seem to fit.
Second question - I've just found a likely baptism for Lucy in Dec 1573, which would make her about 49 when the last child was born in 1623. This is what makes me doubt what I've found. Five children in less than 10 years for a woman in her forties sounds a lot - yet everything seems to fit. Am I guilty of wishful thinking?
Do you know if your Matthew was actually in Newington during the time he was vicar there? I know some vicars never even visited their parish so someone else might have been doing the work for him, but if you could access the PRs to see who was performing baptisms, marriages and burials you might be able to determine the chances of his children being baptised miles away.
That's a good idea, Merry. Unfortunately FMP only has transcriptions and they don't include who the clergyman was.
Uncle John
22-12-14, 19:37
Between July 1616 and Nov 1623 five children were baptised at Wendover, Bucks, father Matthew DAGNALL (no mother's name). Luce's son John from her first marriage lived in Wendover from at least 1627.
Is it possible that Matthew DAGNALL is actually Matthew OF Dagnall (a village midway between Wendover and Luton)?
Is it possible that Matthew DAGNALL is actually Matthew OF Dagnall (a village midway between Wendover and Luton)?
I'm using the Bucks FHS CDs so it's transcriptions not the actual record, but it does seem there was a Dagnall family in the area. The Bucks Wills database also has several Dagnall Wills (but not Matthew's).
I hadn't heard of the village - presumably that's where the name came from originally.
It's Newington (Swale) in north Kent.
I don't know if anything here gives any clues?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/0123b6cf-1a34-4b2d-a473-56fce2375a40
There's a burial for a child of Matthew at Newington:
26 Mar 1618
George Donat son of Mr Matthew
Do you know if Matthew was a bachelor when he married?
kiterunner
22-12-14, 22:00
It doesn't seem very likely to me that Dagnall would be a variant of Donat but I can't see anything to disprove it for certain at the moment.
"Luce's son John from her first marriage lived in Wendover from at least 1627."
Do you know this for certain?
I would think that a vicar's children would be referred to as the children of Mr Matthew Donat, and that their parents might be mentioned on their own MIs. Have you found that at all, or did they all die young?
I would also have thought that a vicar would be literate and capable of correcting a spelling.
Also, if Luce is fighting her corner in 1627, if there were children I would have thought that they would be named in the case as infant children & so naturally supposed to inherit.
Olde Crone
22-12-14, 23:53
I would never assume a Vicar was literate, in the sense that he knew how a particular name was spelled. As there was no standardised spelling then, it was really down to the ear of the scribe! (Who wasn't always the vicar, certainly in many PRs I have seen, it was the clerk or the curate etc who filled in the registers.)
OC
The Clergy of the Church of England database has this about Matthew, which may or may not help.
Person: Donat, Matthew (1613 - 1626)
Education Events
MA : Oxford / Queen's
Ordination Events
deacon : 19/12/1613
Appointment Events
Perpetual Vicar : Newington next Sittingbourne (31/12/1613 - 20/11/1626 )
Vicar : Newington next Sittingbourne (26/04/1622 - 20/11/1626 )
Death Events
Death (20/11/1626)
I'm a bit confused by the record from the TNA as to me it reads that Matthew had two sisters, one called Elizabeth Donat and the other married to Sampson Darrell, but she is also Elizabeth. (or is it that an Elizabeth Darrell was married to a Sampson Donat?) In any case, I looked for the marriage of Sampson Darrell and found this (ancestry):
Name: Sampson Dorrell
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 13 Jun 1614
Marriage Place: Great Hampden, Buckingham
Spouse: Elisabeth Mrs Hampden
FHL Film Number: 924816
This Sampson had connections to Wendover too as he was the MP for that constituency:
DARRELL, Sir Sampson (1594-1635), of Hunterscombe, Bucks.; later of Fulmer, Bucks. and East Smithfield, London
Published in The History of Parliament: the House of Commons 1604-1629, ed. Andrew Thrush and John P. Ferris, 2010
Constituency WENDOVER Dates 1626
Family and Education
b. 1594, 1st s. of Sir Marmaduke Darrell of Fulmer, surveyor of marine victuals (jt.) and cofferer of the Household, and Anne, da. of John Lennard of Knole, Kent. educ. G. Inn 1610. m. 1614, Elizabeth (d. July 1638), da. and h. of Christopher Hampden of Wendover, Bucks., 6s. 3da.1 kntd. 13 June 1619;2 suc. fa. 1632. d. 23 May 1635.3
There's loads more about him here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/darrell-sir-sampson-1594-1635
I couldn't see how that Sampson would have a connection to the Donat family though. I won't have posted about him except for the Wendover connection.
The Clergy of the Church of England database has this about Matthew, which may or may not help.
Person: Donat, Matthew (1613 - 1626)
Education Events
MA : Oxford / Queen's
lol I spent ages trying to find him in the Oxford alumni on Ancestry (unsuccessfully) when he wouldn't appear easily by the spellings we had. However, he seems to have gone to Cambridge!!
Name: Matthew DANNETT or DONAT
College: KING'S
Entered: 1606
More Information: Adm. at KING'S, a scholar from Eton, 1605. Matric. 1606; B.A. 1609-10; M.A. 1613. Fellow, till 1614. V. of Newington, Kent, 1613-?26.
There's a burial for a child of Matthew at Newington:
26 Mar 1618
George Donat son of Mr Matthew
Do you know if Matthew was a bachelor when he married?
That burial is interesting, because there's no George in the 5 children born to Matthew Dagnall at Wendover. Baptisms are:
Francis 1616
Matthew 1618
Sarah 1620
Stephen 1621/22 (Luce's father was Stephen)
Elizabeth 1623.
No Luce, though if it is the right couple she might have had a Luce from her first marriage and I just haven't found the baptism/burial yet.
I don't know if Matthew Danot was married before, though, so George could be a child of a previous marriage. Something for me to follow up.
"Luce's son John from her first marriage lived in Wendover from at least 1627."
Do you know this for certain?
Yes. He baptised children there from 1627, though he had an older son whose baptism I haven't found. He married a local Wendover girl (though no marriage found). His MI in 1661 says he'd lived in Wendover for almost 40 years.
I know John was Luce's son because I have the Will of Luce's daughter-in-law Martha Stace who names her m-i-l as Lucy Danot, John as her b-i-l, and John's children who'd been born at the time of her death.
Looking at the dates again I would have thought it unlikely (but I guess not impossible!) that Matthew was previously married as he was at University until the marriage to Luce.
If his son George was buried at Newington and was a baby, I would have expected a baptism there too though.
I would think that a vicar's children would be referred to as the children of Mr Matthew Donat, and that their parents might be mentioned on their own MIs. Have you found that at all, or did they all die young?
I would also have thought that a vicar would be literate and capable of correcting a spelling.
The MIs I've found for Wendover and Newington are from a couple of books on Google Books. The Newington one only mentions Luce Danot and her son Richard Stace who also lived in Newington. Nothing for Matthew, though he was buried there, or for any other Danots. There's no Dagnalls or Danots mentioned in the Wendover MIs (though there are Dagnall marriages in later years).
I agree about the spelling. So far he is always Donat in Kent and Dagnall in Wendover which makes me think it is just one of those coincidences after all. Matthew was certainly an educated man so no excuses there.
Merry, the legal case you found looks worth pursuing - thanks for that.
Looking at the dates again I would have thought it unlikely (but I guess not impossible!) that Matthew was previously married as he was at University until the marriage to Luce.
If his son George was buried at Newington and was a baby, I would have expected a baptism there too though.
Yes, Luce would have been a few years older than Matthew. I did find a possible baptism for Matthew Dagnall (father Stephen) in Tring, Herts in 1591. Damn, that would probably fit with Matthew Donat's dates too....
FMP don't have any George Donats baptised in Kent. The only Dagnall child buried in Wendover is Sarah (in 1621).
Aahh, just found a Will for Matthew in the Canterbury Cathedral Canterbury Probate Records database!
http://wills.canterbury-cathedral.org/
Is it the Richard Stace and mother? Luce that you are descended from, Lindsay?
It's Luce and her son John, Phoenix.
Richard had no children from his 2 marriages according to his MI (and none mentioned in his Will).
I've sent for Matthew's Will - hopefully it will answer at least some of the questions.
I've found a possible for Matthew Dagnol of Wendover - married Elizabeth Davis at St Benet Gracechurch Street in 1615 (Boyds Marriage index). Probably the same man who was a vintner and took on an apprentice 1617 (FMP).
No proof of ties to Wendover yet but I'll keep him in mind.
OK, Matthew Donat's Will has arrived (thanks to Canterbury Cathedral Archives :)) - and it's a noncupative will, which might explain the legal case mentioned upthread.
Never having seen one before, I have no idea if it's standard, but I found it very moving. It feels like a real window into their lives. Two of his friends came to visit and prayed with him then it continues,
'And the said Mathew Donat putting
off the clothes that did lie upon him desired
his wife (then standing by) that the curtains
might be drawen, but his wife pullinge the
clothes over him agayne and very much lamenting
for him he turned unto her and praied her to
stand away, sayinge unto her, Luce, I will give
you all that I have, thou shalt have all, if I had
more than I have you should have it,
reiteratinge these words once or twice.'
He died 2 days later.
Having looked at the evidence again, I'm sure now that Matthew Donat and Matthew Dagnall were two different people, even though their timelines seemed to mesh so well. Coincidences do happen!
I can understand why that might have been contested. It sounds as if the unfortunate man had a fever, and it might have been argued that even if that was what he said, he might not have been in his right mind.
You don't usually get such a vivid picture of the circumstances.
I can understand why that might have been contested. It sounds as if the unfortunate man had a fever, and it might have been argued that even if that was what he said, he might not have been in his right mind.
It sounded like that to me too. I wonder if the rest was supposed to show he was making sense?
"There came to visit him Richard
Lyfford and John Mylway of Newington aforesd.
They fynding him on his bedd, dyd aske him
how he dyd and he replying unto them said
even as you doo see."
Then, after prayers and the bit I've quoted he went on:
"Verily should we that are of the household of
god, dispaire of gods mercies for even as like a potter
doth forme and fashione his potts to what proportion
he liketh so doth the Lord his chosen people" (well, he was a vicar)
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