View Full Version : William Dod
Colinaffleck
09-12-14, 17:39
Hello All
Brand New to the Forum so this is my first Thread. If it's in the wrong spot or incorrectly formatted, please let me know, at your convenience.
Right then. Time to come clean and throw myself to the mercies of those who know what they're doing. I have been chewing on this for weeks now and have gotten exactly nowhere. Details below, but to summarize, I'm looking for a 4G grandfather (is that how it's written?) who resided in South Cheshire in the mid 1700s. Name of William Dod. However, looking for a William Dod in that place and time is like looking for a particular piece of coal in Newcastle. There are scores of William Dod's scattered in every village and hamlet. Some places have two or three of them. I have attacked this using every census and record I can find (as an amateur, I probably missed some) but have just become more confused.
Any advice on where I might turn to next greatly appreciated. In fact, with Christmas coming, I'll drink your health.
Name: William Dod
Date and place of birth: Unknown
Names of parents: Unknown
Date and place of baptism: Unknown
Details of each of his or her marriages: He may (may!) have married a Mary Foden (b. 10 Nov 1754 at Brereton-cum-Smethwick) in 1774 at Brereton-cum-Smethwick. If that's him, he then moved to Harthill where he and Mary had Philip (1774), Mary (1776, Elizabeth (1779 and Joseph (1781). Please note that in Harthill at the same time, like so many other local places, there was at least one other couple named William and Mary Dod. Also there were a smattering of Samuel, George and John Dod's living in Harthill, any of whom might have been Williams father or brothers or uncles. He is not listed as having died in Harthill but instead disappeared. More correctly, he has, by melting into all the other William Dod's in the area, effectively become invisible.
Occupation(s) - Unknown but probably a bondsman (which I gather falls somewhere between a serf and a tenant).
Addresses where they lived (including county if in UK):Possibly Brereton-cum-Smethwick and possibly Harthill, both in Cheshire.Other places in South Cheshire are assumed but unknown. Censuses checked include the British 1841 Census, the 1851 Census, Family Search, Ancestry.Com and the National Archives. I have also touched on others, also of no help, which I did not record.
Date, place and cause of death: Unknown
Date and place of burial: Unknown
Details of will / administration of their estate: Unknown
Memorial inscription: Unknown (but should be "Cum Out, ye olde ******!")
Hello Colin, welcome to the forum..
He is not listed as having died in Harthill but instead disappeared
This might be him:
Burial in the parish of Harthill, Chester
William Dodd of Bickerton buried 31st Jan 1816 aged 86.
The image of the parish register entry is on findmypast.
There are a couple of possible matches for Mary. One in 1789, and another in 1817. The 1789 Mary was of Bickerton.
Do you know if Bickerton was mentioned for the children's baptisms?
I just looked at the bap for Philip (because there were less of those!!) and they were of Bickerton too.
Which of Wm and Mary's children is your 3xg-grandparent?
Hmmm, I just realised when I scanned your initial post looking for the marriage date of Wm and Mary my eyes went to 1754 (her birth date) rather than 1774. Maybe that William who died in 1816 was older than I would have liked. Do you know his status at marriage?
You said there was more than one family in Harthill with parents Wm and Mary. I have seen these - children of Wm and Mary of Bickerton:
Martha 1766
John 1767
Hannah 1769
Mary 1771
James 1773
Philip 1774
Elizabeth 1779
Joseph 1781
That's all the baptisms in that time frame except for one, an additional Elizabeth in 1773 (a month after James, above) where the address isn't Bickerton, but Burwardsley.
So, might your William have married a different Mary? (Not saying he did, just wondering!)
The above leads me to a different marriage:
St Oswald's, Malpas, Cheshire
William Dodd and Mary Lewis both of Bickerton in this parish married by banns 18 Nov 1765. William signed and Mary made her mark. Witnesses Nathaniel Wainwright and Thomas Ellis (both signed). Thomas Ellis is a serial witness.
Malpas is right next door to Harthill.
The name Philip doesn't seem to be particularly common in that area, but there is a will for a Philip Dod of Harthill proved in 1648. I wonder if he is an ancestor or other relative of your William?
Colinaffleck
10-12-14, 01:42
That Philip 1648 could be, certainly. But I am not there yet and so have no real idea. More text to follow.
Colinaffleck
10-12-14, 01:46
This is a true possibility. What prevents me from embracing it is the gap between the marriage (1765) and the first child (1774). Not impossible, I grant you, but unusual for the time and given the other children followed in relatively quick succession.
Colinaffleck
10-12-14, 01:50
My dear Merry, you are absolutely free to suggest anything at all. I have only the foggiest idea of where this trail leads and you may be spot on with the idea that I have the wrong Mary and, therefore, the wrong William, altogether. In fact, given my success rate to date, I would not be in the least surprised. I will begin to investigate this suggestion of yours immediately.
Colinaffleck
10-12-14, 01:54
Sadly, no I do not. He seems to have 'appeared', as it were. I fact, I very much suspect he was simply one of the numerous local lads, mostly bondsmen, from one of the numerous local villages and hamlets and so, nothing special. Except, of course, in genealogical terms at which point he becomes damned important!
Colinaffleck
10-12-14, 02:06
Hello Merry
Thank you for the rapid response. I was expecting something in days or weeks. Amazing.
First, I am floundering in a sea of Dod's. Nothing is 'off the table' and I may have to start again from scratch but, my research to date suggests my grandfather:
Thomas Dodd (1896-1975) b. Guilden Sutton, d Chester.
Joseph Dodd (1872-1950) b. Tarvin /Clotton (Tarvin the admin center, Clotton the actual place of birth / residence.)
Samuel Dodd (1833-????) b. in Bickerton, lived and (probably) died Clotton-Hoofield
Philip Dod (1774-????) b. Bickerton 13 Sept 1774 (brothers and sisters: Mary 1776, Elizabeth, 1779 and Joseph 1781). Parents were William and Mary Dod of Bickerton. Philip married twice. First, Margaret Littler (1779-1818) and, at Harthill, they had William, James, Mary, Elizabeth, John and Thomas. Margret Dod (nee Littler) died 5 June 1818. Philip remarried.
To one Anne Stokes (1776-????) on 5 Apr 1883 at Bickerton. There they had Joseph, Samuel and Margaret.
William Dod (b. 1730? at an unknown location and d. at an unknown location (but not at Harthill, Bickerton or any other local village I can find) 31 Jan 1816 or 1783.) On 9 July 1775 he may (may!) have married Mary Foden of and at Brereton-cum-Smethwick. They may (may!) have then moved to Bickerton and there had Philip (1774), Mary (1776), Elizabeth (1779) and Joseph (1781).
So what happened to William and Mary Dod after the birth of their last child in 1781? For sure, I don't know. Another Mary Dod, wife of a William Dod, died at Bickerton in 1777 but that's too early. If I have the right Philip, and if I also have the right William and Mary, there are a number of possibilities as to their fate but they all must start after 1781, the date of the birth of their, I think, last child.
You have given me new stuff to chew on and new hope. Many thanks Merry.
Regards,
Colin
It seems to me a lot more likely your Wm amd Mary were the couple who were from Bickerton at their marriage in Malpas, lived at Bickerton after their marriage, had those 8 children at Bickerton (bap at Harthill) and died and were buried at Harthill (but were from Bickerton still).
The couple who married 17 miles away at Brereton-cum-Smethwick in 1774 seem to have stayed in that parish after their marriage as there are baptisms of children of Wm and Mary at Brereton 1776-1784, so I think you can definitely exclude the marriage to Mary Foden.
Colinaffleck
10-12-14, 09:00
Hello Merry
When you say Wm and Mary who were from Bickerton but whose children were bap at Harthill, is that Mary Lewis? She who married Wm Dod 18 Nov 1765? And whose son, Philip Dod, was born (pardon me, christened) at Harthill 13 Sept 1774?
I could live with that.
Let me play with that for a bit. Thanks again Merry.
Colin
Colinaffleck
12-12-14, 22:46
Hello again Merry
I have been trying to pummel the welter of Dod's of south Cheshire into some shape and, based on our prior correspondence, here is what I presently think:
Philip Dod was indeed christened at Harthill 13 Sept 1774. His parents were William and Mary Dod.(By the way, how did you know that all the births, deaths and marriages from Bickerton were recorded only at Harthill? Its witchcraft isn't it. Anyway.............)
Mary is almost certainly Mary Lewis, b. 16 Apr 1750 at Malpas, parents were Thomas and Jane Lewis. She probably died in 1789, registered at Harthill.
William is certainly William Dod, probably b. 30 Nov 1733 at Tilston, parents were another William and as yet unknown woman. As yet, we have no idea when or where he died though Tilston looks a good bet right now.
William and Mary were probably married at Malpas on 18 Nov 1765.
Now for the issues, both of which you may have some advice about:
a. It bothered me that they married in 1765 but did not start a family until, I thought, with Philip in 1774, then Mary 1776, Elizabeth 1779 and Joseph 1781. However, if we take all the 'William Dod as father' births registered at Harthill starting in that marriage year of 1765 and ending in 1789, the supposed year of Mary's death, we have 11 children, all born between 1766 (Martha) and 1781 (Joseph). The problem? Which ones were Philips siblings? Not all, I know, but which ones?
b. I decided the Mary Dod who died at Harthill, 16 Nov 1789, was our Mary. However, another Mary Dod, also wife of a William Dod, died there on 6 June 1777. I dismissed her and will continue to do so but I have a nagging voice saying, "What if she is our Mary and the one who died in 1789 is not?" This would mean that both Elizabeth (b. 1779) and Joseph (b. 1781) were not Philips siblings. Nor does it help with issue a.
This is a knotty, complicated and, frankly, not very important tangle and if you have anything more important to do (wash the cat, have a nap, gaze idly out the window) you would be far better advised to go for one of those. However, if you are seriously bored and looking for something useless to do, I would much appreciate your call on all this.
Cheers Merry.
Colin
I have copied most of the text from your last message here, so I can address each bit in turn. I've changed the colour for my replies!
Philip Dod was indeed christened at Harthill 13 Sept 1774. His parents were William and Mary Dod.
Yep, I agree with that.
(By the way, how did you know that all the births, deaths and marriages from Bickerton were recorded only at Harthill? Its witchcraft isn't it. Anyway.............)
I'm a bit confused by this comment. Isn't it normal for a baptism, marriage (except for the banns) or burial to be recorded at one church only? In this case the events took place at the church at Harthill (All Saints) but the vicar recorded the 'address' of the parties involved which was Bickerton. I knew this because the images of the Harthill parish registers are available to view on fmp. The address is not recorded on the available transcriptions.
Mary is almost certainly Mary Lewis, b. 16 Apr 1750 at Malpas, parents were Thomas and Jane Lewis. She probably died in 1789, registered at Harthill.
I thought that looked like a possible baptism, though it would have made her pretty young at the marriage. If this were my tree I would pencil her in and wait to see if any further evidence came along. I guess in my mind the name Mary Lewis is a pretty common name, but I don't know much about the frequency of this name in Cheshire. I've commented about the burial date further down.
William is certainly William Dod, probably b. 30 Nov 1733 at Tilston, parents were another William and as yet unknown woman. As yet, we have no idea when or where he died though Tilston looks a good bet right now.
I would be cautious about that baptism as there is a burial in 1735 at Tilston for William, son of William Dod of Tilston, so that child may have died as a toddler. More research required!
You have said before you don't know when and where William died, but I thought we had got that (otherwise you wouldn't know roughly when he was born to be looking for a baptism!) The burial is in the first post I put on this thread:
Burial in the parish of Harthill, Chester
William Dodd of Bickerton buried 31st Jan 1816 aged 86.
William and Mary were probably married at Malpas on 18 Nov 1765.
Yes.
Now for the issues, both of which you may have some advice about:
a. It bothered me that they married in 1765 but did not start a family until, I thought, with Philip in 1774, then Mary 1776, Elizabeth 1779 and Joseph 1781. However, if we take all the 'William Dod as father' births registered at Harthill starting in that marriage year of 1765 and ending in 1789, the supposed year of Mary's death, we have 11 children, all born between 1766 (Martha) and 1781 (Joseph). The problem? Which ones were Philips siblings? Not all, I know, but which ones?
Well I didn't find eleven (two missing). Perhaps you could post up who else you found other than these, below, so I can check the 'abode' for those I've missed. I found:
Martha 1766
John 1767
Hannah 1769
Mary 1771
James 1773
Philip 1774
Elizabeth 1779
Joseph 1781
all of whom were the children of William or William and Mary 'of Bickerton'. I only found one child that appeared to be of another family and that was Elizabeth bap 1773 (soon after James, above) where the family were 'of Burwardsley'. So, I would image all the above, other than the extra Elizabeth, belonged to your family. Note my next reply though.....
b. I decided the Mary Dod who died at Harthill, 16 Nov 1789, was our Mary. However, another Mary Dod, also wife of a William Dod, died there on 6 June 1777. I dismissed her and will continue to do so but I have a nagging voice saying, "What if she is our Mary and the one who died in 1789 is not?" This would mean that both Elizabeth (b. 1779) and Joseph (b. 1781) were not Philips siblings. Nor does it help with issue a.
I think I may have solved this bit!
The death in 1777 seems to be Mary Lewis ('wife of Wm Dod of Bickerton') and then we have another marriage, to another Mary!!
William Dod and Mary Wright both of Bickerton in this parish (the marriage took place at Malpas) were married by banns on 30 April 1778 (their conditions are not given). Witnesses Randle Tomlinson and Peter Barlow (serial witnesses - everyone signed except the bride).
So, after Philip's birth there is a gap whist the first Mary died, William remarried and went on to have two further children. Mary Wright then died in 1789.
You might think it odd that William had his children baptised at Harthill (presumably the church he attended for services) but each time he married he did so at Malpas, in each case to a bride from Bickerton. It's likely he used his official parish church (Bickerton being in the parish of Malpas) to save money as the banns would only have to be read in one church rather than at Harthill and at Malpas.
I think the William Dod who had a daughter, Elizabeth, bap at Harthill and was 'of Burwardsley'' had his other children baptised at Bunbury as there are entries for the son or dau of Wm Dod 'of Burwardsley'' in that parish register.
As I said before, if you can tell me the names of the two children I've missed I'll look at the Harthill register images if you don't have access.
Samuel Dodd (1833-????)
Philip Dod (1774-????)
Samuel appears on the census up to 1901.
Deaths Dec 1907
DODD Samuel 75 Chester 8a 233
(Chester is the district for Clotton-Hoofield)
Philip is on the census up to 1851:
Deaths Mar 1856
Dodd Philip Nantwich 8a 211
(Nantwich is the district for Bickerton)
Neither seems to have written a will.
Colinaffleck
15-12-14, 18:21
Hello Merry
BTW, I've never known anyone who spelled it Merry. Unique.
Those two, Philip and his son Samuel, which you just posted. Those dates would seem to be correct. It would make them, at their deaths, 82 and 74 respectively which is not too shabby. Curiously, they seem to have similar life spans to ourselves.
I have been poring over the Dod stuff for a few days now and, and to be honest, I am stuck. And confused by the sheer number of Dod's and dates. I can't get past Philips father William. His birth in Nov 1733 Tilston seems the only one that more or less meets the criteria. If correct, his father was also a William Dod and we do know that one “William Senior Dod” d. 12 Sept 1773 at Tilston. So unless I can find a better father for Philip than this William, I guess I'll stick with him. However, you raised a good point regarding Philips mother. When she and William married (18 Nov 1765) this Mary Lewis would have been only 15 years old.(b. 16 Apr 1750, parents Thomas and Jane Lewis of and at Malpas.) Now, that's not impossible but it does seem darned young, especially when he husband would have been about 32. Unfortunately, no other Mary's seem to be in a more reasonable age range, so there's me stuck.
I have a separate question for you, if I may. I am primarily using Family Search, supplemented with bits and pieces I pull off the Web. In one of your earlier posts you mentioned fmp which I took to be Find My Past. So I went and signed up and maybe I'll get something there. Are there other sites you would suggest mining?
Regards Merry.
Colin
And confused by the sheer number of Dod's and dates. I can't get past Philips father William. His birth in Nov 1733 Tilston seems the only one that more or less meets the criteria. If correct, his father was also a William Dod and we do know that one “William Senior Dod” d. 12 Sept 1773 at Tilston. So unless I can find a better father for Philip than this William,
But as I said before (post #18), that child seems to have died as a toddler, so I would be extremely dubious about choosing him as your ancestor.
Findmypast has images of the parish registers for many Cheshire parishes which often give more info than you will find on Family Search. I use that site and ancestry. I think you may be able to get a short-term free sub to these sites (remember to cancel your sub before the date they will start collecting money if you don't want to pay). Click the links at the top of the forum to findmypast or ancestry to learn more.
My name isn't really Merry! That's just an abbreviation of the first forum name I had years ago. I now think of it as short for Merry Christmas!
You didn't give me the extra two names for potential children of Wm.
Colinaffleck
16-12-14, 23:22
Hey Merry
Sorry to hear your name is not Merry. I thought it kind of neat. Anyway, you'll always be Merry to me.
In addition to those names of the children of William and Mary Dod of Bickerton you posted (#18), the extras I had were Mary (3 Mar 1776) and Elizabeth (28 Mar 1773) both baptised at Harthill and both with a William and Mary Dod as parents. However, you mentioned that this Elizabeth was from another Dod family, which I now know you got from the fmp. This makes some sense as it conflicted with the birth of a James Dod (25 Feb 1773). Given that, I suppose Mary (1776) too could have come from the same second family of Dod's from Burwardsley.
Regarding Mary Dod, now, if I understand this properly, Mary Dod (Lewis) was the one who died in 1777. Mary Dod (Wright) who died in 1789 was the second wife (m.1778) of William Dod of Bickerton as were both these wives. Does this mean Joseph Dod (b. 30 Dec 1781) and Elizabeth Dod (b. 12 Dec 1779) were still "our" Williams children but with this second Mary? I suppose it must. Actually, I should not be surprised. Williams son Philip also married twice and it took me weeks to figure that one out.
And as for "our" William, assuming the one born in 1733 at Tilston and the one who died in 1735 are one and the same, and the records you accessed suggest that to be so, then I am again stuck. The only other possible William Dod birth at Tilston is one on 21 Apr 1745 with the father listed as Charles Dod. I say the only other possible because it would have made him about 20 in 1765 for the first marriage to Mary Lewis. Two other Tilston born William Dod's would have been 16 and 17 years old and so, I think too young.
What is your opinion of this William (1745, son of Charles) of Tilston being "our " William Dod who married the two Mary's, Merry?
I've looked at that 1775 baptism and I think Mary is another child of your Wm and his first wife. That means we need to find a burial for the Mary b 1771.
I just looked at the parish registers for Harthill and Mary baptised Aug 1771 was buried the same October (6th).
What is your opinion of this William (1745, son of Charles) of Tilston being "our " William Dod who married the two Mary's, Merry?
I could accept his age being a long way out at burial as people often seem to have aged rather quickly once they got to the point they might like to brag about being past three score years and ten!
However, as Tilston we have William Dod, son of Charles baptised 21 Apr 1745 and then a burial 27 Mar1754 for Wm Dod, son of Charles, so I don't think that can be the right William either.
I don't know how good the coverage is for online records for Cheshire, but along with missing or untranscribed parish records you also have to contend with parents who didn't baptise their children or vicars who forgot to record the baptism, plus the possibility the Dods came from further away etc etc.
Colinaffleck
18-12-14, 18:07
Ok, now I'm getting depressed. Correct me if I'm wrong here Merry, but the William Dodd whom we seek, he the father of Philip, was not then born in Tilston (unless he got married when he was 16 or 17) and could, therefore, have been just about any William Dod born between about 1730 and 1750. Just a quick search tells me there are no obvious ones close by to Malpas but several hundred farther out. Any ideas, because I have none.
If this were my tree I would now stop trying to go back further on this line for the moment and either concentrate on investigating what happened to the various people already added to the tree, or just move to a different line. All lines on my tree end with a brick wall at some point and the further back you go the more walls there will be as you create more branches. The further back you go the more important it is to investigate the people surrounding your direct line as otherwise it's very easy to make mistakes. There are many people here (myself included) who have investigated the trees of whole villages in their search for answers.
Don't see this brick wall as depressing, but an opportunity to move on! If you come back to this problem later you may find a way to get back further as more records become available.
Having said the above, I thought I'd take a quick look at The National Archives catalogue re the Dods. I thought I'd done this already, but apparently not! If you search for Dod Bickerton there are 26 matches (I haven't tried Dodd Bickerton yet) and some of them look very interesting. I would be attempting to create a tree for the people mentioned to see if they connect to your family in any way. (I've only looked at the results for a few seconds, but it does look like a possible avenue for further research.)
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Colinaffleck
19-12-14, 14:48
Hello Merry
You always say the most encouraging things. That is precisely the route I shall take. Rather than that fruitless, and painful, banging against the wall of we don't know who is next down the line, I'll go left and right and explore the ones we have found to date and their relationships. And in so doing, I might very well gain a ladder (or a hammer!) to deal with that wall. And that National Archives catalogue might be the place to start.
All the very best Merry.
Regards,
Colin
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