brick Walls

[Phoenix]

John Wall marries Sarah Cotmore in Lambeth in 1822. Sarah has a very distinctive signature: otmore like an arrow centered on the bow of the C.
One of John's children is Thomas Harvey Wall.
John appears to have lived just to the East of Waterloo Road
One of John's listed occupations is brass turner.
Link to John:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=288784#post288784

Another Thomas Harvey Wall marries Peaceilla Bell in Lambeth in 1821. Witnesses are Wm Wall and Sarah Cotmore (same distinctive Cotmore signature)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195089-00413/2379154?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26h%3d2379154%26 ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t45 093350_p6477046110_kpidz0q3d6477046110z0q26pgz0q3d 32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45093350_p6477046110_kpidz0q3d6477046110z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

William Reynolds Wall marries Frances Sparks in Lambeth in 1815. Witnesses are Wm Wall and Mary Carling.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195088-00457/2375969?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26h%3d2375969%26 ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t45 093350_p6477045332_kpidz0q3d6477045332z0q26pgz0q3d 32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45093350_p6477045332_kpidz0q3d6477045332z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

It looks as if the same Wm Wall witnesses both marriages.

In August 1825, Thomas, brass turner of Waterloo Road and William, brass Turner of Kinaston Road both have children baptised:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_198054-00024/4307659?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAbirths%26h%3d4307659%26ti% 3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t45093 350_p6477162230_kpidz0q3d6477162230z0q26pgz0q3d327 68z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45093350_p6477162230_kpidz0q3d6477162230z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

This is working out way too long to put all in one query, so I'll post the rest tomorrow, but would you be relatively confident that we are looking at three brothers here, with the witness possibly a father?

Also, is this the same Wm Wall witnessing a marriage in 1823:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_199072-00160/4244158?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26rank%3d1%26new %3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d1%26pcat%3d34%26gss%3dms_r_ db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dnicholes%26gsln_x%3dNN%2 6dbOnly%3d_F0005A49%257c_F0005A49_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0 005A5D%257c_F0005A5D_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F 00058A6_x%26uidh%3d9vh%26mssns0%3dwall&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

[kiterunner]

It's a good theory, but it could also be that Wm Wall had a brother who died when his children were young and Wm was like a father to them, i.e. one or two (or all) of them could be his nephews.
Not sure about the witness to Mary Ann's wedding, whether it is the same signature or not.

[Phoenix]

Except that William Reynolds Wall and Thomas Harvey Wall are the sons of William and Mary Wall, both baptised on the same day.

Wm Wall could be their cousin, but I would have thought it unlikely that he could be their uncle.

[Phoenix]

Part two

William Reynolds Wall, Thomas Harvey Wall and Rebecca Wall are all baptised 19 August 1798 in Lambeth:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1624/31280_195070-00315/2102252?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAearlyparish%26h%3d2102252% 26ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t 45093350_p6477046110_kpidz0q3d6477046110z0q26pgz0q 3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45093350_p6477046110_kpidz0q3d6477046110z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

The eldest is William, b 5 November 1793. They are all children of William and Mary.

This is the obvious candidate for parents:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195085-00547/5688529?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26h%3d5688529%26 ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t45 093350_p6477043973_kpidz0q3d6477043973z0q26pgz0q3d 32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45093350_p6477043973_kpidz0q3d6477043973z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

The marriage of William Wall to Mary Whayman 11 August 1793. One serial witness and an unknown John Gale. But does the signature of THIS Wm Wall looks anything like that of the witnesses a generation later?

[kiterunner]

The marriage of William Wall to Mary Whayman 11 August 1793. One serial witness and an unknown John Gale. But does the signature of THIS Wm Wall looks anything like that of the witnesses a generation later?

No, and we can't even say that his handwriting improved over time because the handwriting in the 1793 signature is markedly better than the later ones.

[Phoenix]

The Cotmores were pen-cutters, so you can't use bad tools as excuses moving forwards!

[Phoenix]

Part three

Henry Wall marries Ann Cotmore 11 June 1826 Lambeth:

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195090-00557/2382690?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLMAmarriages%26h%3d2382690%26 ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t45 093350_p6475996197_kpidz0q3d6475996197z0q26pgz0q3d 32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t45093350_p6475996197_kpidz0q3d6475996197z 0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Cotmore is a mercifully rarer name than Wall and Ann appears to be the sister of Sarah who marries John Wall.

I postulate that Henry and John are brothers, despite Henry being a bricklayer rather than a brass founder, on this basis: the fact that Henry gives two of his daughters Priscilla as a middle name and both men have sons called Edwin baptised in 1834. Henry lives in James Street, just to the west of Waterloo Road.

[Rick]

Your thread title made me chuckle, so I thought I'd chip in.

As far as the signatures are concerned, I don't think the 1823 witness or the Mary Whayman marriage signatures match the first two. It's difficult to see an alternative marriage though. I'd agree that there's a very strong chance that Rebecca, William and Thomas are siblings of Henry & John.

I noticed Henry doesn't have a wife with him in 1841 or 1851 (where he is recorded as widowed) and yet there are more children born in between. Looking for baptisms, I see that Ambrose is the child of Henry & Elizabeth (couldn't find a baptism for Susan).

Henry Wall, bricklayer and widower married Elizabeth Parker, widow 15th Jan 1842 at St Mary, Lambeth. His father - William Wall, bricklayer, deceased. I can't quite make out the surname of the first witness and the second is a parish official.

[Rick]

Some has a number of copies of a tree on Ancestry with William Wall and Mary Unknown and all the siblings. The person hasn't exactly gone in for rigorous sourcing and record attachment, so treat with caution, but there's a death for William in Lambeth in 1839. It has William as a bricklayer, an approx. birth of 1771 and the address as 9 Whiting Street (which was off Waterloo Road just south of Kinaston Road). Informant was Mary Wall, so it looks promising and may mean (assuming it's his widow) that she was still alive in 1841. Off for a look !!

[Rick]

Inconclusive. Three of the right sort of age in Surrey, but not near Waterloo Road.

[Phoenix]

Oh, thank you, Rick!

William the bricklayer is where my problems really start.

I have found the following marriages in Lambeth:

13 Sept 1842 William Wall bricklayer of Park St, s/o William (dec) bricklayer
3 Nov 1844 William Wall labourer of Charles St s/o Thomas (dec) bricklayer and
8 Apr 1845 William Wall servant of Gloster St s/o William bricklayer

All the Williams are bachelors, of full age, and the last two are well in with the Collett family, who lived in Gloster St, as they are witnesses. They can all sign their names, but are not the Wm witnessing William Reynolds or Thomas Harvey's marriages.

I have not identified ANY of these men. I don't even know whether we are talking about three men or one. The minister officiating is different in every case. But, if the Henry who remarries is the son of William, bricklayer deceased, might he be a brother or the 1842 William? Because in that case I would not have thought he could also be brother to WR & TH.

My next step is to note addresses for burials in Lambeth. I may be gone some time!

[Phoenix]

Ooh, I've just realised who has provided that info on death, Rick. I need to make contact!

[Rick]

Also a descendant of John & Sarah Cotmore it seems. Interesting that they have come to the same "conclusion" that John's brother Henry marries Sarah's sister Ann. Wonder if they have any proof ? Definitely worth making contact as you say.

I had a quick look at those three Williams and didn't have any more luck identifying them than you had. I still think your logic stands up in that we know WR, TH and Rebecca are siblings. John names a son TH so must be closely related. John and Henry marry Cotmore sisters and so must be closely related. Siblings probably, cousins possibly, but all related - definitely.

[Phoenix]

Thank you for looking, Rick. I suspect there is a whole nest of them, not all of the obvious.

I've found a James Wall b c1819 whose birth place wobbles from Kent Road to Westminster to Lambeth, also a brass turner and using Priscilla as a daughter's name. He gives his father's name as John, deceased when he marries in 1840. As "my" John did not marry for several years after 1819 that suggests yet another potential cousin!