View Full Version : I may have had a breakthrough in my NZ lot.
You may remember I asked about my great, great grandparents, Patrick Bowler and Deborah Brosnahan, who were supposed to have gone to NZ.
Their daughter, Margaret, entered the convent in Tasmania and became Sister Vincent. I have never found either Patrick or Deborah after the baptisms of their children in Ireland.
Well, a family member has found the records of their farm in Ireland, and it turns out Patrick died in 1859 and Deborah took over the farm and then moved in with her widowed daughter, Mary Hussey, until her death.
What is interesting, is that Margaret married John Brosnahan in Ireland at age 15. In 1873 a group of Brosnahans went to NZ, John and Margaret amongst them.
So, the story then skips a couple of years and Margs brothers, Patrick and John Bowler go to NZ and marry there.
In 1888, Margaret goes to Tasmania and becomes a nun. She says her parents are NZ farmers, although she does give her correct birthdate and parents names. She just omits the fact her husband is still very much alive in NZ.
Margaret, as Sr Vincent has a fair bit written about her as she teaches in Tasmania, until her death in 1919. Strangely, although she us buried at Tunnack in Tasmania with other nuns, her grave runs in a different direction. Nobody can tell us why.
After finding all this info, I wonder if she confessed on her deathbed and the priest decided this would be her punishment. After all, he could never tell anyone and kicking her out would probably bring bad publicity to the order.
Well, I am now trying to prove my theory, so any ideas would be good.
Mary from Italy
03-11-14, 11:51
How fascinating!
Yes it is, Mary. I still can't work out what happened in the intervening years. There does not appear to be any children from the marriage. I am trying to work out how to buy the cert. Irish records are so alien to me...lol
kiterunner
03-11-14, 12:10
So have you found a record of Deborah's death in Ireland, Libby?
Also what theory are you trying to prove, please?
Could this be her?
Name: Deborah Bowler
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1812
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1899
Death Age: 87
Registration district: Killarney
Volume: 5
Page: 214
FHL Film Number: 101600
and could this be Deborah's daughter?
Name: Mary Hussey
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1915
Death Age: 68
Registration district: Killarney
Volume: 5
Page: 221
Oh, scrap that first death reg as they are together in 1901:
Residents of a house 6 in Gearha (Molahiffe, Kerry)
Hussey Mary 50 Female Daughter Roman Catholic
Hussey Patrick 27 Male Grand Son Roman Catholic
Bowler Deborah 75 Female Head of Family Roman Catholic
Merry, I have that cert. I bought it prior to finding them in 1901. I have a photo that is supposed to be Deborah taken in Hobart, Tasmania. However, I think maybe Margaret may have had a photo of her mum and had it reprinted in Hobart. The photo did come from Margaret.
Kate, I am trying to prove the Marg I found marrying John Brosnahan is actually mine.
Then, if so, how she came to the convent.
Does anyone know how, or if, I can buy a marriage cert from Kerry, Ireland for 1871.
tenterfieldjulie
03-11-14, 20:06
Libby since the early centuries married women have entered convents. It was different if she had children to raise. It was not the usual case, but not all nuns were virgins, which some orders required. The requirement in some orders was that they were celebate once they entered. In one of the very famous early orders, a husband started one male order and his wife started the female part. However in those days in Tasmania the requirements may have only been loosely adhered to anyway. So even if she was married, she may have agreed to live apart from her husband and it would only be if he objected that the order wouldn't have taken her. She may of course not told the convent authorities, but her confessor would have known about it long before her deathbed. With the life they led being so precarious, I wouldn't imagine she would have thought she'd put that off to the last minute lol. Just my thoughts. Cheers. Julie
Julie....I know married women could and can enter convents, but not while their husband was still alive. Holy Orders is a Catholic sacrament and is likened to being married to Christ, hence Brides of Christ...
So unless the marriage was annulled she would never have been accepted into the order. Also, Mary MacKillop was already on the outer from the church powers that be and certainly would not have accepted someone who would have caused more trouble......not in that way anyhow.
The archivist at St Joeys is having a ball playing with this at the moment. I've not heard anyone have so much fun for ages....lol
I think also, if by some chance the order did know and that is why the grave is as it is, they would have that somewhere in their records and not keep bringing it up for people to speculate on.
kiterunner
03-11-14, 22:00
Does anyone know how, or if, I can buy a marriage cert from Kerry, Ireland for 1871.
Unfortunately the Irish GRO had to take their new system offline because it gave out personal information such as exact date of birth and mother's maiden name for living people, and Roots Ireland doesn't seem to cover Kerry. But you should be able to order the cert this way:
https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Apply-for-Certificates.aspx
(if you get a popup asking you to login, just click cancel and the form should still load. And there is a box to tick to have the cert emailed to you; I think it works out cheaper that way too.)
John Brosnahen / Margaret Bowler 1871, registration district Killarney, vol 5, p 415.
(Volume number 4 comes up for John but volume number 5 for everyone else on that page and it seems to be volume number 5 for Killarney at that time as far as I can see. )
Thank you Kate. The marriage was in Gearha, Kerry, but that will be the right one.
Olde Crone
03-11-14, 22:53
Ahem! How to put this delicately......you can be married and still be a virgin. Perhaps she preferred to take the veil rather than the embarrassment of an annulment.
OC
OC......that's part of my issue.
I have no proof the Marg Bowler who married John Brosnahan is MY Marg. I'll buy that cert. She would have been just 14 at the time and John was 15. Another thing to consider, although I presume the marriage age in Ireland was much the same as UK at the time.
I then have no proof that the John Brosnahan and Marg who came to NZ in 1873 with a group of Brosnahans was my Marg.
Then......if she married in 1871, what's the chances of her being childless (or escaping the "duties" of marriage) until 1888 when my Marg joined the convent.
There is a book written about that group of Brosnahans where it says "Margaret" was NOT part of the family??? And it goes on to say they know nothing of what happened to her.
Could the marriage have been arranged to get her to her brothers in NZ. I know at that time dowrys were still big in that area. Margaret's nieces, Deborah and Johanna Hussey (daughters of widowed Mary) were sent to Mary's brothers in NZ as there was no dowry for them.
Are you talking about the book called "The Kerrytown Brosnahans"?
Information that I have suggests that a number of them arrived in NZ in 1873 on the Star of India. Certainly some of my people were on that sailing and there are some Brosmans (transcribed as that) Hugh age 55 a farmer from Kerry, Deborah 50, John 23 and Cornelius 15, John and Cornelius are also listed as single men, and in the single women is Margaret Brosman age 17 from Kerry. So if that is them, it does not look as though she was part of that family, or married.
Yes, that is the book, Christine.
Hugh was actually aged 80, but was way too old to be allowed to come so put his age down as did his wife. Hugh died aged 102. I had to laugh at his death cert. cause of death was "old age". Time he had the condition was three years....lol
According to one of the Brosnahan clan, Margaret was "not born a Brosnan/Brosnahan.
She was the one who they never found anything else about after she came to NZ. As I said, I gave no proof of any of this part of the story. I'm ordering The Bowler/Brosnahan marriage. They are very common names. I will also order John Brosnahans death cert from NZ. Hopefully it may give something.
I have not actually seen the book but I have some notes from a distant family member who did some research on my maternal side of the family many years ago. As I think I have said before, a couple of my distant twigs married Brosnahans from Kerrytown. Both my maternal grandparents were Irish extraction, originally from Kerrytown, and grew up in the area. I can remember my grandmother talking of Brosnahans, but I don't think she mentioned your Margaret. LOL :rolleyes:
Have you actually read the book? If not and you want more information, I could try to get it on interloan from the National Library in Wellington, assuming they still have a copy.
Never know, it may even stimulate me to do some work on my Irish side, which I have been avoiding!
Thanks Christine. The book is now online and I'm reading it. I have also messages Sean Brosnahan on his Brosnan website. I'll let you know how I get on.
Is there any chance that Margaret changed her name to travel with the Brosnan family as she would not have been allowed there on her own?
Have you checked papers past for any information on Margaret or John?
As for them not knowing she was married, you don't know the circumstances of the marriage or the condition she arrived in. They could have turned a blind eye to the marriage if she was clearly abused.
Is she buried with the other nuns or apart from them? It is interesting.
You do have a photo of the grave don't you? I just found it on google.
Yes thanks Toni. She is buried with the nuns but her grave runs in a different direction. This has been a mystery for the nuns and it is often remarked upon.
The google satellite is not good enough to locate the grave, although one website indicates it is the closest to the church. I don't know if that is correct though.
All websites probably copy each other but they say she was the first nun there. If it's true could the different burial position be an indicator of that, or a mark of respect?
Thanks Christine. The book is now online and I'm reading it. I have also messages Sean Brosnahan on his Brosnan website. I'll let you know how I get on.
Oooer, I have just googled and found the book, looked at the photos first and came across Dennis Hoare who married Mary Brosnahan and who is a distant uncle! I really will need to read this book! Are you related to the people in the book or not?? I am now confused by them all! :rolleyes:
I think that is what Libby is trying to work out Chris.
Oooer, I have just googled and found the book, looked at the photos first and came across Dennis Hoare who married Mary Brosnahan and who is a distant uncle! I really will need to read this book! Are you related to the people in the book or not?? I am now confused by them all! :rolleyes:
What Toni said Christine.....lol
I didn't think so....or at least not closely, until I came across the John Brosnahan/Marg Bowler marriage....and the fact that Marg's parents, (Pat Bowler and Deb Brosnahan) never left Ireland when Marg said they were NZ farmers when she entered the convent. Her father actually died before she turned two. So, she had already told lies......
tenterfieldjulie
05-11-14, 09:51
Lib, If her father was dead from the age 2, someone else would be the person who she regarded as her father. Do you think she was referring to the people she regarded as her parents, not her birth parents. My grandfather's father died before he was born, so the stepfather who raised him was the only father he knew. I hope you find your answers. Have you looked at the NZ newspapers for that time? I was amazed what I found about Doug's ancestors. He never knew that they went to NZ before they came to Australia and it was really established from the newspapers. Julie
Julie, her mother raised her and she didn't remarry. Her father was certainly Patrick Bowler. I have the farm records as well and they have Deborah (her mother) taking it over.
I think she could manage to give her true parents' names on entering the convent because her brother was also Patrick Bowler, who was, in fact, a NZ farmer. So any communication to Patrick Bowler in NZ would be fine. In that respect, if this is all true, then Pat (my great grandfather) must have known.
catfordcrooner
05-11-14, 12:36
Findmypast has free world membership including NZ records this weekend from midday Friday to Midday Monday
Jeff
I wish I could see a decent aerial view of the cemetery. I'd love to see the grave in situ.
Me too Toni.......I'll ask my sister if she can. She works for Qld Gov mapping. Maybe they have a better program.......maybe not too......lol
I don't understand it to be honest. I've googled my own house and seen a very clear street view. This google view is not good at all.
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