Who Do You Think You Are - Twiggy 9th Oct

[kiterunner]

Tonight on BBC1 at 9 p.m. Last in series.

[kiterunner]

Episode synopsis:

Twiggy, real name Lesley Hornby, was born in 1949 and grew up in Neasden, a suburb of London. Her father came from Lancashire. Her maternal grandfather died when she was about 4, and her maternal grandmother died before she was born. Twiggy lives in West London and has one daughter, Carly.

Twiggy went to see her sister Shirley, who is 15 years older than her and has some old family photographs. Shirley said that their maternal grandmother's name was Alice and that she died when Shirley was quite young.

Twiggy ordered her mother Nellie Lydia Reeman's birth certificate which showed that she was born on the 10th Aug 1909, the daughter of Alfred Robert Reeman and Alice Reeman nee Meadows.


Twiggy met a genealogist who showed her the 1891 census entry for Alice Meadows at 1 Bridge Street, Willesden, Middlesex, living in two rooms with her parents William Meadows and Elizabeth and the other children: Alexander, Samuel, Grace, Lucy, Henry and Frederick. Alice was the second oldest child. William's occupation was slater. The genealogist couldn't find the family together on the 1901 census but she found Henry listed as Harry Meadows age 13, inmate in a home for homeless boys in Horton Kirby, Kent.

Twiggy went to Horton Kirby to see where the boys' home used to be. A local historian showed her the founding minutes of the home, and told her that boys were admitted when they were under the age of 10, and that there would have been about 300 boys there at any one time.

Twiggy was shown a story in the Middlesex Courier from 1896 which said that Samuel Meadows of Kilburn was charged with begging. The case was dismissed. Twiggy met an historian in Hampstead who showed her the Religious Creed Register of 1892 of the workhouse of St John's, Hampstead, which listed Grace, Lucy, Frederick and Harry Meadows, with Grace at 11 being the "informant". The workhouse Admission Register showed their mother to be Elizabeth Meadows of Loveridge Road. The workhouse records showed that Frederick was sent to the Northwestern Fever Hospital on the 18th Jul 1894 and that he died later that year, whilst Elizabeth was admitted to the workhouse on the 11th Oct 1894, and again on the 18th Feb 1898. She died in the workhouse on the 6th Jun 1898, the records showing her nearest relative as husband William, who had deserted her.

Twiggy was then shown the minutes of the Board of Guardians from 1892 where a reward of 40 shillings was offered for the apprehension of William Meadows for deserting his four youngest children, who went into the workhouse.

Twiggy went to Hampstead's Burgh House Museum where she was shown court records. In 1893 William Meadows was sentenced to 1 month with hard labour as an "idle and disorderly" person, and then in 1898 to 3 months with hard labour as a "rogue and vagabond" for refusing to maintain his wife. Twiggy was shown William's death certificate from 1905 showing that he died in Kensington Town sub-district, abode Marylebone workhouse. The cause of death was a strangulated hernia and peritonitis.

Twiggy was then shown an entry in the Old Bailey Calendar of Prisoners from 1862 concerning William's mother Grace Meadows who was sentenced to 6 months in the House of Correction for "uttering counterfeit coins". Twiggy met a crime expert at the British Museum who showed her some real and some counterfeit coins of that period. He also showed her the sessions papers from the Old Bailey trial, which said that Grace was given a good character, and that the jury recommended mercy for her because of her family - she and her husband William Meadows senior had five other children as well as William junior: Grace junior, James, Elizabeth, Sarah and Lucy.


Twiggy met another researcher at Clerkenwell Green, in the building which used to be the court house. He showed her a report from Lloyds Weekly London Newspaper dated 12th Jul 1874 headed "Mother and daughter stealing banknotes": Grace age 50 and daughter Lucy age 14 were accused of stealing three £20 notes, one £5 note and £6 in gold from Lucy's employer Charles Pragnell. One of the notes was found to have been paid into the Bank of England and was traced back to Grace Meadows who had used it to pay taxes. Grace said that Lucy was not involved in the theft. As Grace had several previous convictions, she was sentenced to two years with hard labour.

Twiggy went to Hackney to meet a local historian who showed her the 1881 census entry for Grace at Dalston Road, Hackney, using her maiden name of Gillies, with children Sarah, John and Robert, and a boarder David Cracket, a policeman. In 1891 Grace and Robert were at Bretton Road, Hackney, with a grandchild Maud Crackett.

Twiggy was then shown a report in the Western Gazette of 20th Aug 1891 saying that Grace Gillies, age 69, died in a great crush at the opening day of a great clearance sale at 333 Mare Street, Hackney. Twiggy visited the shop and found that it is now a branch of Iceland.

[Nell]

I really enjoyed this, although it did seem Twiggy had a script to ask all the questions the archivists had ready answers for!

It was nice to have a family full of poverty and thieves, which I could relate to, rather than those celebs who are descended from God!

[kiterunner]

OH and I were rather sceptical about the "romance" between Grace's boarder David Cracket and her daughter Sarah, who Twiggy said fell in love and got married, then had a child. We were thinking it more likely that they had a fling, Sarah got pregnant, and they had to get married. Well, their marriage was registered Jan-Mar 1882 and their first child Florence Catherine's birth was registered Jul-Sep of that year, so I think our version may be closer to the truth!

[Olde Crone]

Didn't hold my attention at all and I was irritated by her constant "Ahhh" every time anything remotely unjolly was mentioned.

OC

[kiterunner]

I enjoyed it and I liked the fact that Twiggy was seen doing some of her own research rather than having a family tree handed to her. But she didn't actually find out much about her grandmother Alice, did she? Just about Alice's family.

Oh, I thought it was unfair of them to say that the surname Meadows was mistranscribed as Meadow in the 1891 census index as it definitely says Meadow on the image:
1891 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/MDXRG12_1045_1046-0386/26753942?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1891%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss %3dms_db%26gsfn%3dalice%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dmea dow%26gsln_x%3dXO%26dbOnly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032 DB_x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly %3d_F000303A%257c_F000303A_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0003039% 257c_F0003039_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%257c_F00027B9 _x%26dbOnly%3d_F0003038%257c_F0003038_x%26uidh%3dv m5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Alice is 12 on that census, so she was born about 1878-9. There is an Alice M Reeman death Jan-Mar 1947 Willesden district, age 69, which could be her. (Shirley was born in 1934 so would have been 12 when Alice died if that is the right death.) She married Alfred Robert Reeman in 1899 in Hampstead district.

Alfred's army papers are on ancestry but I shall leave them for tomorrow!
army papers on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1219/30974_186668-00723/1684705?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dbritisharmyservice%26so%3d2%2 6pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26 new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3dalf*%2brob*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dreem an%26gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3dr%26uidh %3dvm5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

[Guinevere]

Proper genealogy in this one. :)

[kiterunner]

Here is William Meadows on the 1901 census, in Pentonville Prison:
1901 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LNDRG13_176_178-0207/2363389?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1901%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dwil*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dmeadow*%26g sln_x%3dXO%26msbdy%3d1845%26msbdy_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3 d_F00079A7%257c_F00079A7_x%252c_F0005DFC%257c_F000 5DFC_x%252c_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_F0005DFB %257c_F0005DFB_x%252c_F0007AD6%257c_F0007AD6_x%252 c_F0006867%257c_F0006867_x%252c_F0005C4F%257c_F000 5C4F_x%252c_F0005E11%257c_F0005E11_x%252c_F0005906 %257c_F0005906_x%26uidh%3dvm5%26msbdp%3d5%26gl%3d% 26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAeh gEXRkE-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

[Shona]

Albert Reeman's Army service records show that he enlisted in 1916 and served with the Royal Engineers.

Wife, Alice Meadows, named as next of kin. They had married on 22 may 1899 at St James Church, Hampstead.

Three children are named:

1 Alice Amelia Jessie Reeman, born 22 April 1904 in Hendon.
2 Nellie Lydia Reeman, born 10 August 1909, Greenwich.
3 Alfred Robert Alexander Reeman, born 7 May 1911, Hammersmith.

[kiterunner]

Here is the marriage of William Meadows (senior) and Grace Gillies 7 Jun 1846 at St John, Hoxton:
London Marriages on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195055-00087/5763277?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3d34%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d 2%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3dgrace%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dgillies%26 gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3dr%26uidh%3dvm 5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

William is a paper stainer, and his father is Samuel Meadows (deceased), an exciseman, while Grace's father is Robert Gillies, a draper.

And this looks to be William junior's marriage to Elizabeth, as his occupation is slater and his father is William Meadows, house decorator:
London marriages (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_196318-00207/2700813?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dLMAmarriages%2 6rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26pcat%3d3 4%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dwil*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gs ln%3dmead*w*%26gsln_x%3dXO%26dbOnly%3d_F0005A49%25 7c_F0005A49_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005A5D%257c_F0005A5D_x %26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F00058A6_x%26uidh%3dvm5 %26mssng0%3deli*%26mssng0_x%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Elizabeth's maiden name is Austin, daughter of George Austin, a cooper. Marriage 22 Dec 1867 at Holy Trinity, Mile End Old Town.

[Shona]

Here is William Meadows on the 1901 census, in Pentonville Prison:
1901 census on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LNDRG13_176_178-0207/2363389?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1901%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dwil*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dmeadow*%26g sln_x%3dXO%26msbdy%3d1845%26msbdy_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3 d_F00079A7%257c_F00079A7_x%252c_F0005DFC%257c_F000 5DFC_x%252c_83004006%257c_83004006_x%252c_F0005DFB %257c_F0005DFB_x%252c_F0007AD6%257c_F0007AD6_x%252 c_F0006867%257c_F0006867_x%252c_F0005C4F%257c_F000 5C4F_x%252c_F0005E11%257c_F0005E11_x%252c_F0005906 %257c_F0005906_x%26uidh%3dvm5%26msbdp%3d5%26gl%3d% 26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d20%26fsk%3dBEDmZmYIgAAeh gEXRkE-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

In 1901, Lucy Meadows, 15, is with Alfred and Alice Reeman in Hampstead.

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&db=uki1901&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=alfred&gsfn_x=NN&gsln=reeman&gsln_x=NN&cpxt=1&catBucket=rstp&uidh=fpy&cp=11&pcat=35&fh=1&h=1963726&recoff=&ml_rpos=2

[spencer]

I have just watched the episode and it appears I may be related to Twiggy. Do you know of any information regarding Sarah (Crackett) as she appears to be my Great Great Grandmother. The show says her husband was Daniel but census and my family says it is David-was this an error? It appears my Great Nan was born before they wed. She had a younger sibling Maud who showed up living with grandparents but believe she is also on same census living with the parents? Also appears to be a child called Grace between Florence and Maud? A number of other children followed so relationship must have worked out well!

[kiterunner]

Welcome to the forum. It's always lovely to hear from someone who is related to the celebrity!

Daniel and David are often mistranscribed as each other because they look so alike. I initially wrote down Daniel when I was making notes from the episode and changed it to David when I looked at the 1891 census. I will have a look for more tomorrow but have to go to bed now!

[ElizabethHerts]

Welcome, Spencer.

Here are the marriage details for David Cracket and Sarah Meadows Gillies:

Name: David Cracket
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Age: 21
Spouse: Sarah Meadows Gillies
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Feb 1882
Parish: St Jude, Bethnal Green
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: David Cracket
Spouse Father: William Meadows Gillies
Register Type: Parish Register

You can see the entry here:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_197372-00077/2989779?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26ms T%3d1%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3dDav*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dCracket%26g sln_x%3dXO%26msbdy%3d1860%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3 drstp%26uidh%3dxt1%26msbdp%3d2%26cp%3d11%26pcat%3d ROOT_CATEGORY%26h%3d2989779%26recoff%3d9%2b10%2b31 %2b32%26db%3dLMAmarriages%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d 3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

David is a Police Constable. His father is also David Cracket and is a labourer.
Sarah Meadow's Gillies' father is William Meadows Gillies (deceased), house decorator.
Witnesses William Beeby and Lucy Gillies.

[kiterunner]

Florence's birth was registered Jul-Sep 1882 so it looks as though she was born after her parents' marriage, but conceived before it.

Yes, Maud is in two places on the 1891 census. She was probably staying overnight with her grandparents on census night but her parents had already filled their own form in and put her name on it. This is the 1891 census entry on ancestry:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/LNDRG12_299_301-0020/10711963?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1891%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_C ATEGORY%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dflo*%26gsfn_x%3dX O%26gsln%3dcr%253fcket*%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msfng0%3dd a*i*%26msfng0_x%3d1%26msmng0%3dsar*%26msmng0_x%3d1 %26dbOnly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032DB_x%26dbOnly%3d_ 83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303A%257c _F000303A_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0003039%257c_F0003039_x%2 6dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%257c_F00027B9_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0 003038%257c_F0003038_x%26uidh%3dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

26 Wallwood St, Limehouse
David Crackett Head M 29 Police Sergeant Northumberland Netherston (?)
Sarah Do Wife M 31 London Stepney
Florence C Do Daughter 8 Do Hackney
Grace M Do " 7 Do Do
Maud E Do " 4 Do Islington

[ElizabethHerts]

In 1901 David and family are back in Northhumberland where he was born:

Baptist Yard, High Street, Bedlington, Morpeth, Northumberland
David Crackett Head Married Male 39 Coal Miner Stoneman Bedlington, Northumberland
Sarah A Crackett Wife Married Female 41 - Stepney, Middlesex
Elspeth Crackett Daughter Single Female 11 - Hackney, Middlesex,
David R Crackett Son Single Male 9 - Limehouse, Middlesex, England
Alice M Crackett Daughter Single Female 3 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland
Percy T Crackett Son Single Male 2 - Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland

[ElizabethHerts]

1911 Census:
12 West Terrace Stakeford Choppington, Bedlington, Northumberland
David Crackett Head Married Male 49 Netherton Bedlington Northd Deputy Overman
Sarah Alice Crackett Wife Married Female 51 Stepney London
David Robt Sinclair Crackett Son Single Male 19 Limehouse London Underground Labourer
Alice May Crackett Daughter Single Female 13 Newcastle on Tyne Northd School
Percy James Crackett Son - Male 12 Newcastle on Tyne Northd School

Sarah states they had 8 children, one now dead.
They have been married 29 years.

[ElizabethHerts]

David Crackett died in 1924:

First name(s) DAVID
Last name CRACKETT
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1862
Age 62
Death quarter 4
Death year 1924
District NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE
County Northumberland
Volume 10B
Page 49
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

Sarah lived on until 1938:

First name(s) SARAH A
Last name CRACKETT
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1860
Age 78
Death quarter 1
Death year 1938
District NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE
County Northumberland
Volume 10B
Page 9
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Record collection Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

[ElizabethHerts]

There is an Ancestry tree which gives all the children bar one.

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/14649310/person/871533281

[spencer]

Thanks for all your information. It appears then that Twiggy is therefore my Father's 3rd cousin and my third cousin once removed as my Father's Nan was Florence Crackett born in 1882. She lived until 1980!!

[Canucky Woman]

Greetings from Rotterdam!

I realize I'm dredging an old post up from the past, but I was googling Twiggy and Grace Meadows to see whether I could find anything new and came upon this forum.

In short, I'm the great-granddaughter of William Beeby, a witness at David Crackett's wedding to Lucy Meadows, and Grace Meadows' son-in-law. William married the eldest Meadows daughter, Elizabeth. Therefore, I'm Twiggy's third cousin!

I had added the Meadows family and all the details a year or two before settling down with my husband to watch WDYTYA, like I do every week...and while Twiggy was doing her research, I'm thinking, "Heyyyyy, wait a minute...all this stuff about Grace Meadows sounds familiar..."

I remember announcing to my husband as a joke, "Well, if the census after she's out of prison shows that she's gone back to her maiden name of Gillies, then Twiggy and I are related!"...And then they showed that exact census and I shouted at the TV, "OMG! I'm related to Twiggy!" It was right out of a TV show in itself!

What wasn't mentioned though (and she might not have realized), as she was chuckling about Grace's daughter Lucy marrying David Crackett, a police constable, was that William Beeby was ALSO a police constable! So Grace had two bobbies in the family, which might have made it much easier to go straight! ;)

In short, William and Elizabeth had a boy named Herbert, who married Jessie Bines, and the two immigrated to Canada in 1921. Their son, born in 1930, is my dad and still alive and kicking!

My challenge now is go further back...Grace's parents, Meron (nee Borland) and Robert Gillies, moved to London from Manchester, and Meron seems to have been born in Dumfries, Scotland but researching from a distance (albeit from Holland rather than Canada) does limit what I can actually do.

And I have found a brick wall with William Beeby as well...I can go back one generation to William Richard Beeby, born in Mears Ashby, Northhamptonshire around 1825, but apparently illegitimate and I have no mother's name either.

Onwards and upwards! :)

[kiterunner]

Welcome to the forum, Canucky Woman. Sorry to say I don't remember anything about Grace Meadows (well, it is from two and a half years ago!), but will have a read back through and see if I can come up with anything about the Gillies and Beeby families.

[kiterunner]

Okay, now I've reread the thread.

This must be Grace's family on the 1841 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_712_712-0155/15365477?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
East Side New Road Norfolk St, Mile End Old Town
M?????? Gillies 40 S[cotland]
David Do 18 Paper Stainer Y
Matthew Do 17 Do Y
Robert Do 14 Copper Founder Y
Grace Gillies 12 Y
Mary Do 10 Y
John Do 8 Y
-
Joseph McMinn 8 Y
Frances Do 4 Y.

Grace's baptism record shows her parents as Robert and Merion:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_199192-00895/5872772?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
The mother's name is Merion on some and Marrion or Marion on some of the other children's baptisms, with Sinclair and Williamson used as middle names for two of the children (so possibly family surnames).

This is the marriage which I assume you found:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2962/40364_633870_2940-00226/542757?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchestermarriagescro%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3drob *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dgil*s*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msgd y%3d1813%26msgdy_x%3d1%26msgdp%3d10%26mssng%3dm*r* n*%26mssng_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket% 3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Robert Gillies bachelor of this parish and town of Manchester tea dealer and Meron Borland of this parish and town of Manchester spinster were married in this church by licence 6 Oct 1822
Witnesses William McMinn, John Glover, Robert Smith clerk.
Although this Robert Gillies is a tea dealer, whereas he was a carpenter or similar on the children's baptisms and a draper on Grace's marriage cert, it looks to be the right couple because of the McMinn witness and the McMinns on the census.

Findmypast has the marriage licence details:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fchs%2f4018737%2f01710&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f737444163%2f1&highlights=%22%22
William McMinn also named on there and he is also a tea dealer. He makes oath that Robert Gillies and Meron Borland were both born and baptised in Scotland, as was he.

On the 1871 census Marion Gillies is 73, born Scotland Dumfries:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_557_559-0319/5232357?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/14649310/person/19117017016/facts

(I realise you will already have all this, but just for reference)

There is a public tree on ancestry which has Merion's parents as Dalrymple Borland and Grisel Mounsey, but we will need to check into that to see whether it's correct or not. Hopefully we can connect William McMinn to Merion's family. Think that will have to wait until tomorrow though as it's late here!

[Olde Crone]

If it helps - Grace is the anglicised version of the Gaelic name Geisel.

OC

[kiterunner]

Looking at the McMinns:
There is a Frances McMinn marriage 22 Feb 1857 at St Leonard Shoreditch, to George William Keys. Frances is age 20, father James McMinn (deceased), Engineer. One of the witnesses is Susanna McMinn, bride's mother.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31281_A101853-00084/832176?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Joseph and Frances were both baptised 19 Jan 1840 at All Saints, Stepney / MEOT, abode St George's Hosp[ital], Westminster. "Quality, trade or profession" is Nurse, but I think that is Susanna's occupation, not James's, as this is Susanna in 1841:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_734_735-0277/8130944?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/75776554/person/38330617740/facts
Susanna McMinn, 35, assistant nurse, St George's Hospital.

James McMinn, widower, married Susanna Cumming, spinster, 11 Oct 1825 at St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_194756-00439/2080143?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/75776554/person/38328886702/facts
Doesn't really help with connecting them to Grace's family.

[kiterunner]

So, looking at Dalrymple Borland and Grisel Mounsey to try to prove or disprove that they are Merion's parents:
FamilySearch has the following baptisms:
William Borland born 29 Nov 1802, baptised 1 Dec 1802 St Quivox and Newton, Ayr, parents Dalrymple Borland and Grizel Maunsay
John Borland born 6 Mar 1805, baptised 9 Mar 1805 St Quivox and Newton, Ayr, parents Dalrymple Borland and Grizel Maunsey
James Borland born 17 Dec 1808, baptised 18 Dec 1808 Dumfries, father Dalrymple Borland.

And the marriage of Dalrymple Borland to Grisel Mounsey 25 May 1793 at Dumfries. Surely they must have had some more children before William, but I haven't found anything yet to show that Merion was their daughter.

[Canucky Woman]

If it helps - Grace is the anglicised version of the Gaelic name Geisel.

OC

Oh that's good to know! Thank you...

[Canucky Woman]

Looking at the McMinns:
There is a Frances McMinn marriage 22 Feb 1857 at St Leonard Shoreditch, to George William Keys. Frances is age 20, father James McMinn (deceased), Engineer. One of the witnesses is Susanna McMinn, bride's mother.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31281_A101853-00084/832176?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Joseph and Frances were both baptised 19 Jan 1840 at All Saints, Stepney / MEOT, abode St George's Hosp[ital], Westminster. "Quality, trade or profession" is Nurse, but I think that is Susanna's occupation, not James's, as this is Susanna in 1841:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_734_735-0277/8130944?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/75776554/person/38330617740/facts
Susanna McMinn, 35, assistant nurse, St George's Hospital.

James McMinn, widower, married Susanna Cumming, spinster, 11 Oct 1825 at St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_194756-00439/2080143?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/75776554/person/38328886702/facts
Doesn't really help with connecting them to Grace's family.

Thank you! Let me study this and see where it takes me...Frustrating that I can't access Scotland's People though. It's not my only Scottish line...

[Olde Crone]

Stupid predictive text! I meant to type GRISEL not Geisel!

OC

[Canucky Woman]

Okay, now I've reread the thread.

This must be Grace's family on the 1841 census:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_712_712-0155/15365477?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
East Side New Road Norfolk St, Mile End Old Town
M?????? Gillies 40 S[cotland]
David Do 18 Paper Stainer Y
Matthew Do 17 Do Y
Robert Do 14 Copper Founder Y
Grace Gillies 12 Y
Mary Do 10 Y
John Do 8 Y
-
Joseph McMinn 8 Y
Frances Do 4 Y.

Grace's baptism record shows her parents as Robert and Merion:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1558/31280_199192-00895/5872772?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return
The mother's name is Merion on some and Marrion or Marion on some of the other children's baptisms, with Sinclair and Williamson used as middle names for two of the children (so possibly family surnames).

This is the marriage which I assume you found:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2962/40364_633870_2940-00226/542757?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchestermarriagescro%26so%3 d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26gsfn%3drob *%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dgil*s*%26gsln_x%3d1%26msgd y%3d1813%26msgdy_x%3d1%26msgdp%3d10%26mssng%3dm*r* n*%26mssng_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket% 3drstp%26MSAV%3d2%26uidh%3dvm5&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Robert Gillies bachelor of this parish and town of Manchester tea dealer and Meron Borland of this parish and town of Manchester spinster were married in this church by licence 6 Oct 1822
Witnesses William McMinn, John Glover, Robert Smith clerk.
Although this Robert Gillies is a tea dealer, whereas he was a carpenter or similar on the children's baptisms and a draper on Grace's marriage cert, it looks to be the right couple because of the McMinn witness and the McMinns on the census.

Findmypast has the marriage licence details:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbprs%2fchs%2f4018737%2f01710&parentid=gbprs%2fm%2f737444163%2f1&highlights=%22%22
William McMinn also named on there and he is also a tea dealer. He makes oath that Robert Gillies and Meron Borland were both born and baptised in Scotland, as was he.

On the 1871 census Marion Gillies is 73, born Scotland Dumfries:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_557_559-0319/5232357?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/14649310/person/19117017016/facts

(I realise you will already have all this, but just for reference)

There is a public tree on ancestry which has Merion's parents as Dalrymple Borland and Grisel Mounsey, but we will need to check into that to see whether it's correct or not. Hopefully we can connect William McMinn to Merion's family. Think that will have to wait until tomorrow though as it's late here!

I have it all except the Find My Past link. Not in the budget for two subscriptions right now. :/ But thank you for the info!

[Canucky Woman]

So, looking at Dalrymple Borland and Grisel Mounsey to try to prove or disprove that they are Merion's parents:
FamilySearch has the following baptisms:
William Borland born 29 Nov 1802, baptised 1 Dec 1802 St Quivox and Newton, Ayr, parents Dalrymple Borland and Grizel Maunsay
John Borland born 6 Mar 1805, baptised 9 Mar 1805 St Quivox and Newton, Ayr, parents Dalrymple Borland and Grizel Maunsey
James Borland born 17 Dec 1808, baptised 18 Dec 1808 Dumfries, father Dalrymple Borland.

And the marriage of Dalrymple Borland to Grisel Mounsey 25 May 1793 at Dumfries. Surely they must have had some more children before William, but I haven't found anything yet to show that Merion was their daughter.

I'm going to try and run with that! You've been more than helpful, thank you!

[kiterunner]

John and James Borland are together on the Scottish censuses, both house painters. John married and James didn't. Scotland's People has this entry in the "Wills and testaments" (not sure why they call it that as it includes other types of document too): Borland James 28/4/1884 Painter, Castle-Douglas, d. 12/11/1883 at Castle-Douglas, intestate Kirkcudbright Sheriff Court SC16/41/38.

It doesn't say what type of document it is, but if that tree on ancestry is correct and Merion was James's sister, then it's possible that her children might be mentioned in this document as they could have been among his next of kin. It costs 10 credits to view it on Scotland's People.

[kiterunner]

Thank you! Let me study this and see where it takes me...Frustrating that I can't access Scotland's People though. It's not my only Scottish line...

Why can't you access Scotland's People?

[Canucky Woman]

Seriously broke. :(

[kiterunner]

Oh, that's a shame. Scotland's People tends to be vital when tracing Scottish ancestors! They sometimes do a promotion offering free credits, so watch out for those.

[Canucky Woman]

I thought I had grabbed all I could last year when I still had an income, but that was for my maternal McIntyre/Nicholson side! This new info about my paternal side has come at a pretty **** time! :(