View Full Version : A Return To Harriett Salter
Those reading my posts on General Discussion will know I'm using this
as a diversionary tactic while I deal with something that's worrying me, so apologies in advance for resurrecting the topic, but blame Nell - it was her idea to tackle any long - standing brick walls!
I don't think reference to previous links would be of assistance here (I don't know how to do it anyway) as I now know, after invaluable help from many of you,exactly what 2xg/grandmother Harriett got up to with William Cooper Webb while living with his wife & family in Goswell Road,Clerkenwell.
He is shown as the father of her youngest child Emma Webb Salter, b1843 &
is almost certainly the father of son George Webb Salter,b1839 - d 1849,& my g/grandmother Harriett Salter Jnr,b 1837.
Having put that mystery to bed(!)what I never been able to establish is
exactly who Harriett Snr was. She was b Strand, London abt 1811-1813 &
Salter would appear to be her maiden name. All attempts to fit her into
various families have so far failed - Merry tells me she spent ages trying to do so, & suggested sending for her d/cert for possible clues. However, since then
I've come across a ref. to a Salter family in the Strand from 1802 & wondered if John Salter, swordsmith, 35 Strand 1802- 1825 & 75 Strand 1825 1857 may have been a member of Harriett's family.I realise its a longshot, & his may even be one of the families Merry tried,but decided it was worth one last plea for assistance.
So,can anyone please help to identify once & for all the lady now scathingly referred to by OH as "Harriett the Slapper?"
All suggestions gratefully received.
kiterunner
14-09-14, 15:05
Links to the other threads:
The Mystery of Harriett Salter (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=18979)
The Mystery of Harriett Salter Revisited (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=19605)
The Mystery of Harriett Salter Part 3 (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=19720)
The Mystery of Harriett Salter Part 4 (http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=19966)
kiterunner
14-09-14, 15:05
All attempts to fit her into
various families have so far failed - Merry tells me she spent ages trying to do so, & suggested sending for her d/cert for possible clues.
So did you get the death certificate, Vita?
No,I didn't - I shelved it as Merry said she had a few examples where it proved useful, but just as many where it didn't. Would probably have done so eventually, but then came across John Salter.
Thanks for links info posting.
kiterunner
14-09-14, 15:29
John Salter, swordsmith, 35 Strand 1802- 1825 & 75 Strand 1825 1857 may have been a member of Harriett's family.
Vita, is the second address definitely 1825-1857, or could it be 1825-1827?
Vita, is the second address definitely 1825-1857, or could it be 1825-1827?
Grovelling apologies - 1827 it is! I see he d 1834.
kiterunner
14-09-14, 15:48
His will was proved at the PCC, if he is the one who died in 1834, but it says Silversmith rather than Swordsmith in the will:
PCC will on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5111/40611_311506-00082/120052?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dcanturburyprerogativecourt%26 so%3d2%26pcat%3d36%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new %3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dsal%253fer%26gsln_x%3dXO% 26gskw%3dstrand%26gskw_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucke t%3dr%26uidh%3dvm5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
I'll have a quick look through and see if there is any mention of a Harriet...
kiterunner
14-09-14, 15:57
I can't see any mention of a Harriet. He does mention his wife Ann, father Cleaveland Salter of Portsea, brother Cleaveland Salter with daughters Jane and Ann, sister Fanny (married twice), brother Daniel Salter, a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy. He could be the John Salter baptised 26 Sep 1775 at Crediton, Devon, son of Cleaveland Salter.
kiterunner
14-09-14, 16:21
There are a few possible baptisms for Harriett which you may have already ruled out?
Harriet Salter christened 18 Jan 1807 City of London (non-conformist records), parents William and Mary - but this could be the Harriet Salter buried 16 Apr 1808 at Whitefields Memorial Church (nonconformists) age 18 months, abode St George Hanover Square.
Harriett Salter born 6 Nov 1811, baptised 12 Nov 1811 St Marylebone, parents Edward and Martha - PR doesn't give their address. Edit - there is a Harriott Salter, child, buried at St Marylebone Feb 1812 which is probably that one.
Harrt Salter born 18 Oct 1810, baptised 11 Nov 1810 St Giles Cripplegate London, parents John Salter, a Clerk, & Harrt. The PR doesn't give their address.
PR entry on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1624/31281_A101660-00057/7094015?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dLMAearlyparish %26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26pcat%3 d34%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dXO%26 msbdy%3d1810%26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdm_x%3d1%26msbdd_x %3d1%26gskw%3dgiles%26gskw_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d_F0005 A49%257c_F0005A49_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00058A6%257c_F000 58A6_x%26uidh%3dvm5%26msbdd%3d11%26msbdm%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Thanks Kite - much appreciated. I saw John Salter described variously as a jeweller,
silversmith & sword smith, but I believe he was best known as the latter, making weapons
for the aristocracy & famous. But we can forget him, I think.
I'm pretty sure the ones you mention have been ruled out, but I will double check.
Don't blame me!!!!!!
Sorry! Please forgive? You were right, though - so can you consider it as credit,
not blame?
Just so I don't need to keep searching for these again:
1841 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_667_668-0632/7120696?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1841%26MS_AdvC B%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26 gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dharri*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dsa%253f%2 53fer%26gsln_x%3dXO%26msydy%3d1812%26msydy_x%3d1%2 6cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3d672%26msydp% 3d2%26cp%3d11%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d9%26h%3d7120696%2 6recoff%3d8%2b9%26ml_rpos%3d10&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
1851 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1519_1520-0157/2812707?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_C ATEGORY%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln_x%3dX O%26dbOnly%3d_F0006867%257c_F0006867_x%26dbOnly%3d _F0006301%257c_F0006301_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005DFD%257 c_F0005DFD_x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x% 26dbOnly%3d_F0005906%257c_F0005906_x%26dbOnly%3d_F 0005E11%257c_F0005E11_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005C4F%257c_ F0005C4F_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0005DFC%257c_F0005DFC_x%26 dbOnly%3d_F0005DFB%257c_F0005DFB_x%26_F0005906%3d2 %26_F0005906_x%3d1%26_F0005E11%3d5%26_F0005E11_x%3 d1%26_F0005C4F%3d1520%26_F0005C4F_x%3d1%26uidh%3d6 72&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
1861 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/MDXRG9_203_205-0232/8758447?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1861%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26pca t%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dharri*% 26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3d*ter%26gsln_x%3d1%26msydy%3d 1811%26msydy_x%3d1%26gskw%3dlondon%26gskw_x%3d1%26 dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%257c_F00027B9_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00 03039%257c_F0003039_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303A%257c_F0 00303A_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032DB_x%26db Only%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0003 03D%257c_F000303D_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303E%257c_F000 303E_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032F6%257c_F00032F6_x%26dbOn ly%3d_F0003888%257c_F0003888_x%26uidh%3d672%26msyd p%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
1871 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LNDRG10_449_452-0497/12052144?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1871%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_C ATEGORY%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dsal ter%26gsln_x%3dXO%26dbOnly%3d_F0003888%257c_F00038 88_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%257c_F00027B9_x%26dbOnly %3d_F0003039%257c_F0003039_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303A% 257c_F000303A_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032DB _x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3 d_F000303D%257c_F000303D_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032F2%25 7c_F00032F2_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032F6%257c_F00032F6_x %26_F0003039%3d452%26_F0003039_x%3d1%26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
1881 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LNDRG11_392_397-0267/14936605?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1881%26rank%3d 1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dharriet%26gsfn_x%3dNN%26gsln%3dsalter%2 6gsln_x%3dNN%26msbdy%3d1811%26msbdy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3 d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dfpy%26cp%3d11%26pca t%3d35%26fh%3d1%26h%3d14936605%26recoff%3d%26ml_rp os%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
1891 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/LNDRG12_247_249-0177/5610701?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1891%26rank%3d 1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dharriet%26gsfn_x%3dNN%26gsln%3dsalter%2 6gsln_x%3dNN%26msbdy%3d1811%26msbdy_x%3d1%26cpxt%3 d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dfpy%26cp%3d11%26pca t%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d5610701%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpo s%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
Deaths Dec 1894
Salter Harriet 81 Hampstead 1a 380
vita, did you ever find Harriet in 1871? <<< EDIT - added above.
Hi Merry - you kindly supplied the info re 1871 on my first post about Harriett.
You say she's shown as "Harrier Salter" & give ref as RG10;Piece:452;Folio:58;Page 17
Another member quotes FMP as showing a Harriett Salber, b St. Martins, in the
workhouse, which is where we know Harriett spent much of her later years..
Thanks, I'll edit my previous post.
So her age and birthplace are as follows:
1841 30 in Middlesex
1851 40 London
1861 50 Middlesex London City
1871 60 St Martins Middlesex
1881 70 City of London Middlesex
1891 80 Strand Middlesex
That's right - no two the same, I'm afraid.
kiterunner
15-09-14, 12:29
Wikipedia says that the western part of the Strand was in the parish of St Martin in the Fields, if that's any help.
Wikipedia says that the western part of the Strand was in the parish of St Martin in the Fields, if that's any help.
Thanks Kite - that could be helpful as both Strand & St Martin's are mentioned
as Harriett's birth place.
Vita
I'm always happy to take the credit!!!!
I'm tacking the latest development to the end of this thread because post#1 explains the
problem as its stood till this morning when I received the d/cert for the only likely
candidate - Harriett Salter d 1894 Hampstead aged 81. This lady turns out to be a
farmer's wife, widow of Ebenezer Salter, & definitely not my Harriett.Death informant
was daughter in law & my Harriett's only son d aged 10.
I haven't been able to make any progress with Harrt b 1810 since Kite identified her in
post#9, & to be honest, I'm beginning to think this might be the end of the line for
Harriett.
I've had so much help from you all over this but Harriett is proving so frustrating that
I just have to ask one last time - can anyone suggest anything else I might do before
giving up on her for good?
To save searching back, please can you give the details of the last time she was positively identified?
Have you positively located the Harriet whose death cert you purchased?
What was the name of the dau-in-law informant?
kiterunner
16-10-15, 17:29
There is a Harriet Salter death Oct-Dec 1893 Wandsworth, age 79. Has she been ruled out?
There are two Harriet Salter's on the 1891 of the right age; yours and one b in Hull who seems to be the widow of Charles Salter. There are then just the two death registrations; the one you have the cert for and the one Kate mentioned in the last post.
kiterunner
16-10-15, 18:12
Looking through the many entries for her in the London Poor Law Admissions and Discharge records on ancestry, this one says that she died 15 Mar 1897, assuming this is the right person:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60391/31436_189676-00357/317984?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLondonAdminDisch%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dhar*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsal*r%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d 2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d4 0%26fsk%3dBEELPyAIgADr5wB4Px4-61-&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
So her death is Harriet Salter Jan-Mar 1897 age 78 Shoreditch, vol 1c, p 53.
They have her year of birth down as 1819 although it is 1810 on the earlier admission records. But since your Harriet was still in Holborn workhouse (Shoreditch reg district) in 1891 I should think it is her. If only we could find her settlement examination records!
Looking through the many entries for her in the London Poor Law Admissions and Discharge records on ancestry, this one says that she died 15 Mar 1897, assuming this is the right person:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/60391/31436_189676-00357/317984?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dLondonAdminDisch%26gss%3dangs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dhar*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dsal*r%26gsln_x%3 d1%26msrpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msypn__ftp_x%3d1%26MSAV%3d 2%26uidh%3dvm5%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d4 0%26fsk%3dBEELPyAIgADr5wB4Px4-61-&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
So her death is Harriet Salter Jan-Mar 1897 age 78 Shoreditch, vol 1c, p 53.
They have her year of birth down as 1819 although it is 1810 on the earlier admission records. But since your Harriet was still in Shoreditch workhouse in 1891 I should think it is her. If only we could find her settlement examination records!
Thanks so much Kite & Merry - this looks very hopeful. Just one thing - I
thought it was Holborn Union Workhouse, not Shoreditch? But yes, those
records would be great.Her age has varied quite a bit, but tends to settle
around 1813.
For the record, informant on d/cert for the other Harriet was daughter in law
Emma. Got quite excited when I saw that name as my Harriett had a
daughter named Emma, but then noticed it was "daughter in law."
And my Harriett was a milliner & seamstress in the workhouse so can't
see her being the widow of a farmer name Ebenezer!
kiterunner
16-10-15, 18:32
Yes, sorry, it was Holborn Union Workhouse, in Shoreditch registration district. I have corrected my post.
Just to demonstrate it isn't just your Harriet Salter who is tricky..........
The death cert you purchased was for Harriet Salter nee Ayres b in Hedsor Bucks around 1814. She married David Salter in 1835 at Wooburn, Bucks. David was bap at Wooburn in 1813 and he died in 1854, probably at Hedsor. Earlier in 1854 Harriet had her last child, Jesse Salter at Hedsor. Jesse married Emma Townsend in 1878 and they moved to Hampstead - I expect Harriet lived with them from some point after the 1891 census when she was still in Buckinghamshire. At his marriage Jesse gave his father's name as Ebenezer rather than David, which must have lead to Emma giving apparently incorrect information about her father-in-law when Harriet died! David and Harriet's first son was named Ebenezer (b 1836), so there may well have been others in the family, Jesse's grandfathers seem to be William Salter and John Ayres, so maybe further back. Anyway, the point is, Salters can be tricky, though of course your Harriet may well be worse than some!!! :D
What is it with these Salters? Harriett is the Great Mystery in my tree & I'd dearly love to
solve it. If the dates are right for the 1897 death, she would have been just 17 or 18 when
she had g/grandmother Harriett Jun in early 1837.
There is a Harriet Salter death Oct-Dec 1893 Wandsworth, age 79. Has she been ruled out?
I think so.
I posted on one of the other threads that there was a burial on 6 October 1893 for a 79-year-old Harriet Salter in Finchley Cemetery. Her place of abode was 5 Worcester Gardens in Battersea. This Harriet is on the 1891 census as a widow living in Worcester Gardens, Battersea.
The one we are searching for was in the workhouse in 1891, wasn't she?
What is it with these Salters? Harriett is the Great Mystery in my tree & I'd dearly love to
solve it. If the dates are right for the 1897 death, she would have been just 17 or 18 when
she had g/grandmother Harriett Jun in early 1837.
Isn't it really far more likely the death cert age is inaccurate? I don't think I have anyone on my tree who has an exact addition of ten years per decade across six census records, but, whilst we don't know if they were accurate ages, I'm very impressed by Harriet's records -she is aged 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 and 80 from 1841-1881. Then apparently 78 in 1897! I presume you will be purchasing the 1897 cert?!
Yes, I suppose you're right re death cert age. Getting carried away imagining she was a
young girl falling into the clutches of a man 20 years older - if indeed WCW was the father
of Harriett Jun.
Def. ordering 1897 d/cert - it seems like the last hope of a clue.
kiterunner
17-10-15, 12:40
The one we are searching for was in the workhouse in 1891, wasn't she?
Yes, and we have found a record of her date of death in the workhouse records now. She died in 1897.
Thanks for posting update Kite - wasn't being picky about Holborn, honest. Didn't realise
it was under Shoreditch district.
kiterunner
17-10-15, 15:38
Thanks for posting update Kite - wasn't being picky about Holborn, honest. Didn't realise
it was under Shoreditch district.
It shows the name of the registration district on the census pages, otherwise I wouldn't have known either!
Well, Harriett's death cert has arrived & I'm afraid it offers no further information.
She died 15 March 1897 of (illegible) bronchitis, aged 75, occupation needle worker of
175 Old Street, St Lukes. Informant was Acting Master Holborn Union Workhouse
Hoxton New Town.
I've checked to see if the workhouse was in Old Street at that time, but although there
was one in Old Street in the 1700s I can't confirm it was at 175 in 1897.
Could this be the end of the road for Harriett?
kiterunner
04-11-15, 10:19
The 1901 census has St Luke's Hospital at Old Street, Vita, but it doesn't seem to give the number within the street.
kiterunner
04-11-15, 10:27
In the 1902 Post Office Directory of London, 175-179 is Bridgland, Edwd & Co, linen drapers, and then St Luke's Hospital for Mental Diseases is listed between 181 and 183.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/3145/GB9037P-00003?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d3145%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=GB9037P-00676
The 1901 census has St Luke's Hospital at Old Street, Vita, but it doesn't seem to give the number within the street.
Thanks Kite. All things point to the Old Street address being the workhouse,
but you know how you clutch at straws?
kiterunner
04-11-15, 10:29
See post #40, Vita - we were both typing at the same time!
OK, thanks Kite. Wonder if 175 was for that purpose in 1897?
Just read that by 1865 the hospital had around 150 patients taken from the middle classes
after abandoning the original intention of treating paupers, which we know Harriett to
have been.
kiterunner
04-11-15, 12:28
In the 1895 London Post Office Directory, number 175 is Solomon Temple, coffee rooms, and St Luke's Hospital for Lunatics is again between numbers 181 and 183.
Thanks again, Kite. I've just had another look at cert & its a clear '175' so I guess they
must have taken it over by 1897. (Much as I'd like to imagine Harriett as a rather elderly
coffee house employee).
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