Who Do You Think You Are - Brendan O'Carroll 28th Aug

[kiterunner]

Of "Mrs Brown's Boys" fame. BBC1 at 9 p.m.

[Guinevere]

I'm not sure I'll be able to watch this one. I can't stand him/her.

[Lynn the Forest Fan]

It could be interesting as it is investigating the murder of his grandfather c1916 in Ireland. I am not sure how much genealogy will be involved, it may be more about social history.

[Ann from Sussex]

I'm not sure I'll be able to watch this one. I can't stand him/her.

Nor can I. I just hope he isn't as foul-mouthed and crude in reality as he is "in character". I will watch because I have lots of Irish relatives and know Dublin so I hope it will be interesting and that I will be pleasantly surprised by the celebrity's real-life personality.

[Anstey Nomad]

Going well so far.

[Guinevere]

Social history but not genealogy. A lot of assumptions, as usual.

[borobabs]

Agree more social history. Found it boring at times

[Margaret in Burton]

Dave and I both enjoyed this one. He likes Mrs Brown, I don't. It's not about about whether you like the person it's their history. It was genealogy to him. We can understand the mystery of a grandfather. Ok, not murder, but Dave's grandfather is a mystery and we would love to get to the bottom of his 'story'.

[Olde Crone]

I surprised myself by actually enjoying that although I do agree it was one man's story, rather than genealogy. I have little interest in Irish history, so thought I would be bored, but his measured (and intelligent!) approach to a mystery was rather refreshing and his quick grasp of facts was a nice change from some of the previous participants.

OC

[kiterunner]

Episode synopsis:

Brendan O'Carroll knew that his grandfather Peter O'Carroll was murdered (shot) by British soldiers in 1920 during the struggle for Irish freedom, but he wanted to find out exactly what happened, and why. Brendan lives in Dublin with his wife Jenny and sons Danny and Eric. His father's name was Gerard and his grandmother was Annie.
The report in the "Irish Independent" newspaper dated Oct 18th 1920 says that Mr Peter O'Carroll, an invalid, was shot early on the morning of Saturday the 16th in his shop at 92 Manor Street, Dublin. His children Gerard, 10, and Martha, 12, and his wife Annie were at home but did not hear the shot. The newspaper report said that it was thought that soldiers were looking for Mr O'Carroll's older sons (who were members of the IRA.) A piece of paper was pinned to his body which said "A traitor to Ireland - shot by IRA." The city coroner was told by the Lord Lieutenant not to hold an inquest as a military inquiry was to be held.
Brendan met an historian who explained that coroners' inquests had been suspended in Ireland at that time as an emergency measure, and replaced with military courts of inquiry which were held "in private".
The records of the military inquiry showed that it was held on the 19th Oct and that it found that Peter O'Carroll was murdered by persons unknown and that he died from haemorrhage and shock due to a bullet wound. The reply to a Parliamentary question the following month stated that Mrs O'Carroll didn't appear in court to give evidence. She wrote a letter to the Dublin Corporation which said that her husband was murdered by members of the army of occupation and that she would not appear in a court held by that same army, and she demanded a civil inquest.
Another historian showed Brendan an example of a note left by the IRA on a body, but he didn't think that Peter was killed by the IRA. The Irish Times had reported on the curfew which was in operation at the time and it would not have been easy for non-army gunmen to move around the city in the dark without being stopped. Also the report on Peter's funeral listed well-known Nationalists who attended, so it didn't sound like a traitor's funeral.
The family rumour was that Peter was killed by the Black and Tans, but they were not serving in Dublin. There was an Auxiliary Division serving there at the time, made up mostly of ex-officers. The National Museum of Ireland is housed in a former army barracks and there are weapons from that time there, including a Webley & Scott semi-automatic pistol which may have been the type of weapon used to kill Peter as it is small and quiet. The Auxiliary Division would have had access to this type of weapon, and to the "dumdum" bullet which may have been used in Peter's killing as there was no exit would.
Brendan visited 92 Manor Street, which is a nail bar now.
He reread the newspaper report which said that Peter's death bore a striking resemblance to the "recent hotel tragedy". He went to the National Library of Ireland to look through the Irish Independent on microfilm, and found a report in the issue of the 23rd Sep 1920 on the killing of Mr J A Lynch, county councillor, at the Royal Exchange Hotel, shot by military who had come to arrest him. No sound of a shot was heard, although there was an exit wound in this case.
Brendan was shown a Republican document which said that one of the people involved in the killing of Mr Lynch was an Englishman calling himself MacMahon but whose real name was Angliss. H was also shown a witness statement taken by the Irish Army in the 1950's from David Nelligan who had worked in Dublin Castle for the British and spied for the IRA. This statement said that Lynch from East Limerick had brought money for Michael Collins of the IRA, and that Nelligan had come across a phone message from a British officer saying that he had killed Lynch, and that this officer was also involved in another killing, "the Carroll family". They had warned Mr Carroll that if his sons, who were active in the IRA, didn't surrender at the Castle by a certain date, he would be shot. Nelligan had been given a note telling him to "concentrate on Hardy." This was Jocelyn Lee Hardy, an Orangeman, an intelligence officer in the Auxiliaries with an artificial leg, who lived in Harcourt Street in Dublin in 1920. It seems most likely that he was the killer of both Mr Lynch and Peter O'Carroll.
On Sunday 21st November 1920, fourteen British intelligence officers were killed by the IRA, with reprisals by the British causing it to be named "Bloody Sunday". But Hardy was not among those killed, and after the Irish War of Independence he went on to become a banker, stockbroker, and author.
Brendan visited Peter and Annie's grave. The gravestone shows that Annie died on the 4th Mar 1954, a year before Brendan's birth.

[kiterunner]

Here is Jocelyn Lee Hardy's marriage certificate from 1919:
LMA records on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_198427-00258/3730702?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dROOT_CATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26rank%3d1%26new%3d 1%26MSAV%3d2%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3djo*c*n%2blee%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dhar dy%26gsln_x%3dXO%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3dr%26uidh %3dvm5%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

He died in 1958 leaving an estate of over £58,000.

[Lynn the Forest Fan]

I found it interesting but as I said previously not really much genealogy. I was particularly interested in the involvement of the Black & Tans as my mil's grandfather was one and the programme seemed to suggest that as an officer he would have been in the auxiliaries. It was a relief when his name didn't come up as one of those involved!!

[kiterunner]

I'm trying to find the O'Carroll family in the 1911 census but no luck yet. Has anyone else found them?

[kiterunner]

Ah, here they are in 1911; looks as though Martha's age was wrong in the newspaper report, or I noted it down wrong:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Manor_Street/46890/
I had to look it up by address but there doesn't seem to be a way to put in the house number, or did I just not see where to put it?

[Ann from Sussex]

I surprised myself by actually enjoying that although I do agree it was one man's story, rather than genealogy. I have little interest in Irish history, so thought I would be bored, but his measured (and intelligent!) approach to a mystery was rather refreshing and his quick grasp of facts was a nice change from some of the previous participants.

OC

This was my reaction to Brendan O'Carroll too. He displayed one of the most intelligent responses and attitude to the research that I can remember seeing on WDYTYA. Once I had decided, very early on, not to view this as a genealogy programme but as one on Irish history (a subject that interests me) I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[Merry]

I surprised myself by actually enjoying that although I do agree it was one man's story, rather than genealogy. I have little interest in Irish history, so thought I would be bored, but his measured (and intelligent!) approach to a mystery was rather refreshing and his quick grasp of facts was a nice change from some of the previous participants.

OC


Well, this post saves me typing my opinion! Those were my thoughts too, OC.

I would have liked to know in what way Peter was an invalid, or did the journalist just write that to add weight to the point that this older man was defenceless.

[Shona]

There is a huge body of research on the Cairo Gang - much of it available online.

Jocelyn Lee Hardy was a member of the gang and has been (for some time) identified as the person, or a member of the hit squad, who shot Peter O'Carroll.

According to a witness statement from Peter's son, Liam, his father bought guns from British soldiers. Liam O'Carroll was Adjutant of the 1st Battalion of the IRA's Dublin Brigade. His brother, Peter, was in the same battalion.

Liam O'Carroll: 'My father and his father were members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Through my father, I became associated with the Nationalist Movement. We had a fair number of Lee Enfields. We were buying them at that time from British Army men. As a matter of fact, my father bought quite a quantity. He had a shop in Manor Street.'

The Cairo Gang website has masses of detail. Here's the info on Hardy and his involvement in the O'Carroll shooting.
http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html

Hardy's father was an Irish-born merchant, which may explain why JLH served with the Connaught Rangers in WW1...and was selected to become an intelligence officer attached to the Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary.

In the 1930s, JLH became a fascist.

[Olde Crone]

Shona

thankyou, that is interesting.

I did think there would be more to it than we were given and thought Peter O'Carroll was probably more actively involved than we were led to believe but even so it was a nice piece of detective work.

OC

[kiterunner]

Wow, that's interesting, Shona, thanks. I wonder whether they gave Brendan that information?

[Shona]

It gets better...

The O'Carroll family were involved in the Easter Rising in 1916.

Again the info comes from Liam. He was involved in the fighting at the Four Courts.

'Peadar was close by in the North King Street area. Annie O'Keeffe was a member of the woman's organisation, the Cumann nam Ban. She was in the Father Mathew Hall. Peader and Annie married in 1921. James Joseph, the one who went to the States was in Jacobs Biscuit Factory. Mary Patricia was also in the Cumann nam Ban. She was in a club called Dwyer's Club just behind The Four Courts. Her future husband Lawrence (Larry) Lawlor was also around the Four Courts area. They also married around 1921.'

Michael, who was only about 15, was in the Na Fianna (Scouts) and was in the same area as his brothers Liam and Peadar.

EDIT: Following independence, people involved in the 'struggle' were encouraged to give statements about their involvement and activities.

[Shona]

Well, this post saves me typing my opinion! Those were my thoughts too, OC.

I would have liked to know in what way Peter was an invalid, or did the journalist just write that to add weight to the point that this older man was defenceless.

From the newspaper report:

'Mr. O’Carroll had been in most delicate health for the past 3 years, which the recent raids in his house did not tend to improve. Not many weeks ago he had a haemorrhage from the lungs, from the affects of which he was suffering.'

[Shona]

Found it!

Liam O'Carroll's full statements of his involvement in the nationalist movement. He states that lots of ammunition was delivered to the shop in Manor Street in readiness for the Easter Rising.

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0314.pdf

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0594.pdf

[Guinevere]

Thanks, Shona. Fascinating.

[kiterunner]

Thanks for that, Shona.

I wonder why they didn't include this stuff in the programme. Surely the researchers must have seen it?

[kiterunner]

Oh! They did show it to him!! Unseen footage on the magazine site:

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/15737

but they don't mention the bit about Peter buying guns.

Edit - Brendan keeps saying that his father was 10 at this time, but he is 2 on the 1911 census, so maybe 11 or 12 when Peter was killed?

[Shona]

The O'Carrolls were certainly a very 'political' dynasty.

Brendan's mother, Maureen O'Carroll, was the first woman Labour TD in the Irish Parliament and its first woman whip. Her father, Michael McHugh, was also a republican.

Maureen O'Carroll got the law changed which banned married women working in the civil service in Ireland.

She also got the word 'illegitimate' replaced with the term 'father undeclared' on Irish birth certs!

[Shona]

Posting this link as it contains a number of newspaper reports about the O'Carroll murder.

http://theauxiliaries.com/INCIDENTS/o-carroll-murder/o-carroll-murder.html

[kiterunner]

I've found out who MacMahon, real name Angliss was:

Reference:WO 339/102450
Description:
Lieutenant Henry ANGLISS alias Patrick MAHON
The Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.
Date: [1914-1922]
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department 193143
Legal status: Public Record

Edit - he also comes up on the Cairo Gang website which Shona found, and he was among those killed on Bloody Sunday:
http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html

[Shona]

Oh! They did show it to him!! Unseen footage on the magazine site:

http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/15737

but they don't mention the bit about Peter buying guns.

Edit - Brendan keeps saying that his father was 10 at this time, but he is 2 on the 1911 census, so maybe 11 or 12 when Peter was killed?

Ooh - thanks. Hope he was given all of Liam's statement!

[Olde Crone]

I wonder if they held back some of the information out of political sensitivity? I certainly wouldn't want my Irish allegiances broadcast even 100 years later, you never know what kind of attention that might attract from the loonies.

OC

[Nell]

I found this episode really gripping. I much prefer just concentrating one one dramatic episode rather than just tracing back, especially as after 10 years we've had all the "related to royalty/life's grim in the workhouse" tales.

Irish history is extremely relevant to English history and now that the IRA aren't bombing us any more we may move to a different perspective. It's the old story of freedom fighter and terrorist being 2 sides of the same coin. There are also so many episodes of the way the Irish were treated, from the colonisation by English settlers to the Potato Famine and the actions of the Black and Tans that make me want to weep.

[maggie_4_7]

I watched this last night and really liked it, I don't usually like this format. I don't like Mrs Brown's Boys but I thought Brendan O'Carroll came across quite nice.

I thought it was interesting to see what the IRA were originally and why they were formed and all the atrocities the British Occupation carried out - rather than the 1970's, 80' and 90's incarnation of the IRA that most people will recognise.

[Margaret in Burton]

I found this episode really gripping. I much prefer just concentrating one one dramatic episode rather than just tracing back, especially as after 10 years we've had all the "related to royalty/life's grim in the workhouse" tales.

Irish history is extremely relevant to English history and now that the IRA aren't bombing us any more we may move to a different perspective. It's the old story of freedom fighter and terrorist being 2 sides of the same coin. There are also so many episodes of the way the Irish were treated, from the colonisation by English settlers to the Potato Famine and the actions of the Black and Tans that make me want to weep.

I watched this last night and really liked it, I don't usually like this format. I don't like Mrs Brown's Boys but I thought Brendan O'Carroll came across quite nice.

I thought it was interesting to see what the IRA were originally and why they were formed and all the atrocities the British Occupation carried out - rather than the 1970's, 80' and 90's incarnation of the IRA that most people will recognise.

Totally agree with both of you. The IRA of the early 20th century was a completely different organisation from those that carried out the bombings of the 70's etc. they fought for freedom from the occupying English.

[Shona]

The IRA of the early 20th century was a completely different organisation from those that carried out the bombings of the 70's etc. they fought for freedom from the occupying English.

Disagree.

The IRA of that period weren't totally different. The Provisional IRA believed they were fighting for the same cause - to free their country from the occupying forces of the British crown. To them it was a continuing struggle for an Irish republic - as set out in the proclamation of independence in 1916. Certainly, the Provos did not believe they were a different organisation; they felt they alone had kept the flame of the independence movement alight.

Following the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921, pro-treaty IRA volunteers under Michael Collins formed the new Irish National Army. However, many IRA members believed the treaty was a sell-out, so refused to recognise the Free State government. What followed was a bitter, nasty and cruel civil war characterised by summary executions and reprisal assassinations - carried out by self-same 'freedom fighters' of the independence struggle.

Some background here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executions_during_the_Irish_Civil_War

At the end of the civil war, there was a ceasefire, but no surrender. As far as the anti-treaty IRA were concerned, the military struggle would continue in the future.

[Guinevere]

They bombed Coventry in 1939.

The IRA always targeted civilians. Evil.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-28191501

[Mary from Italy]

They bombed Coventry in 1939.


Good heavens, I didn't know that.

[Anstey Nomad]

Mr Nomad’s grandparents lived in the Hague, where Grandad had the franchise for Coventry Eagle motorcycles. Their three children were born out there. In August 1939, Grandma brought the children home to Coventry to stay with their grandparents. Unfortunately, the IRA bomb then went off in Broadgate and Grandma decided Coventry was far too dangerous a place for her and her precious children, so she wrote to Grandad and told him she was coming home.

Bearing in mind what was happening in Europe at the time, Grandad was actually packing up to come back to the UK himself, so as soon as he got the letter, he placed a call to an Uncle in Kenilworth, who was the only person in the family with a phone. Uncle harnessed his pony into the trap and clopped over to Coventry, only to find that Grandma and the children were long gone on their way back to the Hague.

Fast forward twelve months and Grandad is in an internment camp in Upper Silesia (where he stayed until 1944) and Grandma and the children were left to their own devices in Holland until liberation in 1945, which is a whole other story. The IRA has a lot to answer for!

[Mary from Italy]

Goodness, what a story!

[Anstey Nomad]

I think I've told the story before of what Grandma did during the war ...

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Brave+June+honoured+at+last+for+defying+the+Nazis% 3B+Warwickshire+woman...-a0220746275

[maggie_4_7]

I think I've told the story before of what Grandma did during the war ...

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Brave+June+honoured+at+last+for+defying+the+Nazis% 3B+Warwickshire+woman...-a0220746275

What a wonderful story and absolutely brave of her, it would have been very dangerous.

[Mary from Italy]

What an amazing woman!

[Guinevere]

She certainly was.