I'd appreciate some comments on my thoughts (such as they are!)

[Nell]

Long-standing brick wall with my gt x 4 grandfather John Grey/Gray. Link to his profile on GF here:

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php?t-11159.html

I can't find a definite baptism for him he first appears in marriage 1783to Elizabeth Webb & in Hempnall, Norfolk.

1841 gives John's age as 90 which I would have taken as an error/rounding up issue, except that his death cert 1848 says he's 97 which tallies with census.

I don't know he was born in Norfolk, but think it likely. I've found a baptism for John Gray, son of John & Mary Gray at Alburgh, 04 Sep 1747. This isn't very close to Topcroft, where John junior & Elizabeth had elder children baptised, but it's not impossibly far away either. It is the likeliest area I've found and the date fits -ish. John junior & Eliz's eldest daur is called Mary which seems likelyish too (Elizabeth's mother was Elizabeth) but names are so common I can't be certain.

Am I clutching at straws? Have I missed something?

[Nell]

I also mentioned in Take 4 x Gt Grandparent that there's an age gap between John jun and Elizabeth and wondered if she was his 2nd wife. I've also only just noticed that John & Elizabeth did not name any of their sons John, which I thought a bit odd. It's true the marriage says John is single, but not sure that is gospel!

[kiterunner]

FamilySearch lists the marriage 9 Dec 1783 at Hempnall, Norfolk: John Gray and Elizth Webb. And handily, their index links directly to the PR image:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12124-32160-91?cc=1416598
(Third entry on left-hand page.)
John is a "single man" but I don't know whether that rules out widower?

[Nell]

Sorry KiteRunner, I discovered I already had that info after I'd posted! I have found other marriages where the groom was definitely widowed but has stated he was single - in one case I think it's because he was marrying his dead wife's sister.

[kiterunner]

There is a John Webb baptised 24 May 1782 at Hempnall, mother Elizabeth Webb.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12124-31314-79?cc=1416598

[kiterunner]

Alburgh looks pretty near to Hempnall and Topcroft on the map. (Google says 5 miles between Alburgh and Hempnall.)

[Phoenix]

Norfolk has more parishes to the square inch than any other diocese in Western Europe.

Lots of the registers have scribbled sums in the margins where they have worked out the age. If he wasn't born in the parish, then they would have to rely on people's memories. People who were probably a generation younger than John. If not younger.

Could he write?

My gut feeling is that he is probably a decade younger than the man you have found and that the register has either not been deposited or not yet transcribed that contains his baptism. (I have to rely on ats for my favourite parish of Edgefield and of course half the crucial events are in the bts, or that year is lost.)

[kiterunner]

These are the Alburgh 1747 baptisms in the parish register and there is no John Gray. :confused:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12400-202984-5?cc=1416598&wc=92BP-FM3:29357801,29358102,29444001

Edit - never mind, found him in 1748:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12400-198956-88?cc=1416598&wc=92BP-FM3:29357801,29358102,29444001

[kiterunner]

There is a John Grey baptised 5 Aug 1758 at St Margaret, Topcroft, age 2, parents Robert and Mary.

Also there is a Mary Gray who married William Burk 5 Oct 1772 Hempnall, who may or may not be related to your John. I haven't figured out what happened to her afterwards - was hoping to find a burial with her age on to see when she was born.

[kiterunner]

Oh, there is a Mary wife of John Grey buried at Topcroft 26 Nov 1755 (from FreeREG).
And another Mary wife of John Gray buried at Alburgh 27 Feb 1772. This is getting confusing!
Also John Gray buried 1 Oct 1772 at Alburgh.

[Nell]

Yes, a shame that John, Mary and Gray are all so common - I have a cousin called John Gray and his sister's name is Mary!

Thanks for what you've found out KiteRunner, and I'll digest the info.

Phoenix - very annoyingly, I haven't found a baptism for my gt grandfather (a different John Gray) although his brothers are in the Hardley parish register. Of course its not in BTs or ATs either.
So annoying when you look at the online parish records and find they don't cover the year or the parish you want!

[Nell]

Well I found Mary Gray & John Gray's burials in Alburgh in the images online but it doesn't give their ages -(

[Nell]

The John Webb baptism is a puzzle too. Elizabeth Webb who married John Gray had a brother called Robert Webb, who married Lucy and they had a daughter, Elizabeth Webb, but she can't be this unmarried mother because she was born in 1784 in Hempnall.

I guess there's a connection somewhere. It's a real problem unravelling old parish registers where there are so few name variants.

[kiterunner]

Surely the Elizabeth Webb who was the unmarried mother of John Webb is the same Elizabeth Webb who married John Gray? And since she named her son John, John Gray could well be his father.

[Nell]

Oh KiteRunner, good call! I'm a bit befuddled with trying to read the appalling handwriting in the Alburgh registers!

Yes, that makes sense!

[Nell]

Hm. John junior baptised May 1782 and his parents don't get round to being honest till Dec the following year. Shocking!

[Nell]

I thought I'd found a burial on FreeReg for my 5 x gt grandfather Robert Webb, father of Elizabeth at Topcroft, 15 Mar 1792.

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Burials&RecordID=1970854&v=MTQwOTIyMTYzOTpiZjFmY2IyNmI3MTE2NDhjMTMzM2YxN2Nm MmRlZjJhMzZlZTIwZDQ3

This looked a find as it gave his age (yay!) and his parents' names. But it names his mother as Susan.

When I checked the Topcroft register I found nothing for 1792????

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12144-21646-94?cc=1416598&wc=92BJ-K6B:30354101,29365801,29370301

But the 1795 burials include Robert, son of Robert & Lucy Webb age 27. But Robert & Lucy's son was born 1782!

[Nell]

Oh, there's also a burial same page for Susan Webb, late Sharman, widow of John Webb, these are the names given for Robert's in the burial on FreeReg that I can't find in the register.

[kiterunner]

FreeREG says the Robert Webb burial comes from the Archdeacon's Transcripts, Nell. I would have a look for it in the AT's, but I have to go out shopping.

[Nell]

Thanks KiteRunner, I'll do that myself. Except how come the ATs have more detail when it isn't in the register itself, from which the ATs are supposed to be copied??

[Nell]

STOP THE PRESS

I found it!!! https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12127-78552-96?cc=1416598&wc=92BG-TQD:30354101,29358102,29784101

bottom of the page.

[Nell]

I've been trying to find out what happened to John Webb, Elizabeth's son. No luck. I wondered if he used the surname Gray/Grey but no joy there either.

[kiterunner]

There is a John Webb of St Gregory, Norwich, buried at Hempnall 2 Sep 1830 but his age is given as 42 so more likely to be the one baptised in 1787 (son of Robert and Lucy).

There is a John Gray of Tacolneston who marries an Elizabeth George of Hempnall at Hempnall 26 Jan 1818. Then they have children baptised at Tacolneston: Sarah 15 Aug 1820, George 3 Nov 1822, Maria 13 May 1825, Sophia 20 Oct 1827, another George 15 Aug 1830. Probably not connected either.

[Nell]

Thanks again KiteRunner.