Who Do You Think You Are - Tamzin Outhwaite 21st Aug

[kiterunner]

9 pm on BBC1.

[kiterunner]

Episode synopsis:

Tamzin Outhwaite's mother Anna Santi was born in Clapton, London, and Tamzin's father was born in Hackney. Anna's father Remo Santi was of Italian origin, and Tamzin set out to find out more about her Italian ancestry. Anna showed her where Antonio and Antonietta Gonnella, the parents of Tamzin's grandmother Lina opened a café called Tony's in the 1930's, at 94 Commercial Road.

Tamzin went to visit her grandmother Lina, now aged 83, who showed her Remo's birth certificate. He was born on the 2nd Sep 1924 at Bishop Auckland, County Durham, the son of Adelmo and Maria Santi. Adelmo's occupation was shown as ice cream vendor.


Lina said that Adelmo and Maria came over to England in the early 1920's, bringing their eldest son Peter who was born in Italy. Adelmo and Peter were interned in a camp on the Isle of Man during WW2 as they were classed as enemy aliens.

Tamzin went to the Isle of Man and was shown the records of the Palace Camp, which listed Santi A and P from 12 Chaytor Terrace, Fishburn, Stockon-on-Tees, Co Durham. Some of the boarding houses which were used for the camp are still standing, and Tamzin had a look at one of them, the Rutland Hotel. She was shown a newspaper story which said that a fascist minority were dominant in the camp.

The camp records showed that Adelmo was recommended for release on the 8th of May 1941, but that Peter was not recommended for release at that time as he refused to volunteer for the Pioneer Corps. He was released a few months later. The records said that Adelmo was born on the 2nd May 1896 at Barga, Italy, and first came to Britain in 1913. His only relative in Italy was his father, and he (Adelmo) had five younger children who were born in England. Peter was born in Barga on the 10th Dec 1921 and came to England at the age of 11 months.


Tamzin went to Barga in Tuscany. The Town Hall holds the BMD records, and Adelmo's birth certificate showed that he was born on the 5th May 1896. His full name was Adelmo Alfredo Nello Santi, and his father was Giuseppe Santi, a farmer. The records of those born in Italy but living abroad during WW1 showed that Adelmo was called up to serve in the Italian army in 1916 via the Italian consulate in Glasgow, and that his family lived at no 2, Carpisecchio, near Barga. Tamzin went there to look at the farm house, and then to Glasgow where she learned about the Italian ice cream trade.

Adelmo moved to Fishburn in the 1920's and opened an ice cream shop called Santi's at 12 Chaytor Terrace. Tamzin visited the building and met a local man who knew the family and told her that Adelmo, known as Arthur, was the richest man in Fishburn. Peter's widow Iris, who still lives in Fishburn, told her that one of the Santi children, Henry, fell off a rope swing and died as a child. Tamzin went to visit the grave of Adelmo / Arthur, Maria and Henry at Fishburn Cemetery. The gravestone showed that Arthur died on the 11th Nov 1978, aged 82, Maria died on the 27th Jun 1980, aged 78, and Henry died in 1936 aged 13. Tamzin visited the children's playground in Fishburn which has a plaque showing that Arthur Santi donated the land for it in 1952 in commemoration of the Second World War.

[Margaret in Burton]

I really enjoyed that episode but was surprised that she didn't realise that Italians were interned during WW2.

[kiterunner]

I really enjoyed that episode but was surprised that she didn't realise that Italians were interned during WW2.

Me too, Marg. It seemed as though she didn't find out anything that her grandmother and great-aunt couldn't have told her.

[Olde Crone]

I really enjoyed that! Mostly for the lack of histrionics, admittedly, but a good straightforward piece of research.

I WAS left with one question though - why didn't Adelmo naturalise and save himself the problem of internment.

(I felt I had seen that wartime footage on the IOM on another programme about someone's Jewish relatives who were interned there?)

OC

[Margaret in Burton]

Me too, Marg. It seemed as though she didn't find out anything that her grandmother and great-aunt couldn't have told her.

Maybe. Except they did seem to assume that her great grandfather came here from Italy in the early 20's when in fact it was 1913.

[kiterunner]

Searching for Adelmo Santi on TNA's image search, it seems that both Adelmo and Peter were naturalised in 1957 (Maria too). They also have their internment records:
https://images.nationalarchives.gov.uk/assetbank-nationalarchives/action/search?newSearch=true&quickSearch=true&includeImplicitCategoryMembers=true&keywords=santi

(I didn't know that TNA even had an image search until Google came up with this!)

[Shona]

(I felt I had seen that wartime footage on the IOM on another programme about someone's Jewish relatives who were interned there?)

OC

I think it was the David Baddiel episode, OC.

[Guinevere]

I liked the research angle and found that very interesting. However, the "padding" was annoying. I'm not interested in how ice cream used to be made. They could have used that time for a bit more research. *grumps*

I thought Tamzin came across very well, though.

[maggie_4_7]

Searching for Adelmo Santi on TNA's image search, it seems that both Adelmo and Peter were naturalised in 1957 (Maria too). They also have their internment records:
https://images.nationalarchives.gov.uk/assetbank-nationalarchives/action/search?newSearch=true&quickSearch=true&includeImplicitCategoryMembers=true&keywords=santi

(I didn't know that TNA even had an image search until Google came up with this!)

Neither did I :eek:

[Merry]

I quite enjoyed that episode. I was shocked that Tamzin appeared not to know that Italy sided with Germany in WW2, especially considering her FH.

I also wondered why Adelmo didn't get himself naturalized so save being interned, but I suppose he would have needed to have already done that before the war started for it to count (and he might have needed to close the shop for a day to do it!).

Am I correct in thinking, firstly Tamzin sounded as if she had just learned something new when she was told her great-grandfather was from Barga, yet whilst they were in Barga she said she had been there many times. It seems unlikely she didn't know her family came from Barga, even if she didn't previously know much about them.

I thought they could have told Tamzin that it was commonplace in the past for relatives to miss family weddings, but I suppose it made for a better story to leave her looking a bit stunned!

I was bothered by the apparent fact that between arriving in Fishburn in the early 20s and 1936 when son Henry died, Adelmo didn't make enough money to buy his son a gravestone, but by the end of the 1950s (with the war, interment and rationing in between etc) he was the richest man in Fishburn and was busy buying properties for his children and giving the town the field for the playground. Can that amount of money be made from ice cream or did he have other business interests?

[Margaret in Burton]

My impression when she pronounced Barga was that it confirmed what she knew. She knew how it was pronounced.

[garstonite]

Spot on Merry - I thought that as well ...no money to bury his son after 15 years owning a shop ??...a couple of Porkys told in that episode I think - but I must say that Tamazin did come across as a nice lady ...I always thought her to be a bit of a snob - but that wasn`t the case ....I quite enjoyed that episode ....I am usually a Victor Meldew when I watch WDYTYA ...they always look sugar coated to me...and everyone has a little cry ??...

[Olde Crone]

They didn't mention (or did they?) that Remo also married a Gonnella!

Ice cream in the summer, fish n chips in the winter...or maybe both. I thought I glimpsed a fish and chip shop next door to the ice cream parlour in Fishburn. My memory of "ice cream parlours" in the 50s and 60s is that they were cafes as well and I would think they were little goldmines.

I too felt that she knew quite a lot already about her Italian relatives.

(Shona: thanks for that, what a memory you have!)

OC

[Shona]

Yes, OC. The Italian-owned cafes in Scotland - ice-cream in the summer; fish and chips during the rest of the year.

Why did so many Italians end up in Scotland? Some stories suggest the Duke of Argyll, who holidayed in Italy, recruited Italians to work on his estate in Inverary and started the trend - seems far-fetched! Others suggest the Italians were duped - thinking they were travelling to a new life in the USA. Old chestnut. What I think is more likely is that the Italians were a source of cheap labour for the mines and heavy industry. As with all immigrant communities, others arrived to serve that community, setting up food shops, etc. Although in Ireland (Belfast has its own Little Italy - OH's ancestors lived there),

It was an interesting story. Where my mum grew up, the café was run by the Giacopazzi family...everyone looked forward to the ice-cream 'season'. Like Tamzin's family, the owner went to Italy to fight in WW1. The women kept the business going in the absence of the men. In World War 2, they were interred. Once again, the women kept the businesses going. Mum says that the chap who ran the place was released and went on join the RAF and flew missions with them!

And you can still buy Giacopazzi ice-cream today.

Did anyone notice the hoarding with the message: 'Barga - the most Scottish city in Italy'?

Agree with others that the edit made me believe at the outset that Tamzin knew little about her Italian heritage, but it was clear she had regular holidays in Barga.

Loved Tamzin's mum, nan, and great-aunt Iris.

[Shona]

They didn't mention (or did they?) that Remo also married a Gonnella!
OC

Tamzin's grandfather, Remo Santi, married Lina Gonnella - daughter of Antonio and Antoinetta Gonnella, who ran cafes in the East End of London.

AND...

Tamzin's great-grandfather, Adelmo/Arthur Santi married Maria Gonnella, daughter of Enrico and Assunta Gonnella - according to the naturalisation papers that Kate found in the National Archives website.

[kiterunner]

Did anyone notice the hoarding with the message: 'Barga - the most Scottish city in Italy'?


Yes, it made me laugh. Especially as Tamzin seemed so determined that it was extraordinary and brave of Adelmo to leave Barga for Glasgow.

[Olde Crone]

Shona

I have very fond memories of my teenage years in Scotland, spent largely in the "Milk Bar" which was of course a cafe run by Italians. This is where I learned to drink coffee (we never had it at home), eat the most delicious home made white onion soup and play the juke box endlessly. They were certainly the only place in my town which tolerated teenagers.

I think they were attracted to Glasgow because these things always go by word of mouth and recommendation - if one man from Barga was successful in Glasgow, then the others would follow. A mixture of chance plus success! The man who,went to Newcastle, say, and returned home to Barga penniless, wouldn't have attracted any recruits for Newcastle.

OC

[kiterunner]

I thought they made too many assumptions about why Peter refused to join the Pioneer Corps. And Tamzin didn't ask Iris if she knew anything about his experiences in the internment camp, or at least, not on camera. Surely a lot of the men who joined the army in WW2, voluntarily or conscripted, were worried about what would happen to the families they left behind, but they went anyway. Would Adelmo really have been in such extreme danger that Peter didn't dare to leave him there for even a few days, as they made out? And wasn't he worried about his grandfather still in Barga, and wanting to save him from the fascists?

[Merry]

And wasn't he worried about his grandfather still in Barga, and wanting to save him from the fascists?


I thought that.

Also, I was surprised that Adelmo said he only had one surviving relative in Italy. Wouldn't it be very likely he had siblings there too? If not had they emigrated somewhere? It would have been interesting to know.

[Ann from Sussex]

Interesting programme from a research point of view and I thought Tamzin came across as a very nice person....BUT.....

I got very cross over her attitude to internment (and I do find it hard to believe she didn't know that Italy was at war with us in 1940 - was that a bit of "dramatic effect?). She seemed to imply it was wrong to imprison people who were nationals of the countries we were at war with. What on earth did she expect? We were in very real danger of being invaded at that time so couldn't take any risks.It happened to German and Austrian refugees from the Nazis too until they were able and willing to prove their loyalty to Britain. I just felt the whole section about internment in a "concentration camp" was another example of looking at the past and judging it by today's mores and standards. OK, I know it WAS, strictly speaking, a concentration camp but the term has come to signify something very different in relation to WW2 and I think it was deliberately used for emotive effect here. At least the inmates were given the chance to get out ... which is more than can be said for most of those in the other side's camps.

[crawfie]

I get a bit annoyed at all the assumptions they make - Peter not wanting to leave his father alone in the camp, as he wanted to protect him from the fascists? Peter was only 19 at the time, and the father was only in his early 40's so quite possibly able to stand up for himself. Did Peter later on join the volunteers - I was a bit hazy on that.

[Ann from Sussex]

I get a bit annoyed at all the assumptions they make - Peter not wanting to leave his father alone in the camp, as he wanted to protect him from the fascists? Peter was only 19 at the time, and the father was only in his early 40's so quite possibly able to stand up for himself. Did Peter later on join the volunteers - I was a bit hazy on that.

Nothing more was said about that.

Did anyone else get the impression that Tamzin knew her great grandparents and great uncle? She talked about visiting Fishburn often,she remembered the shop and they died in 1978 and 1980 respectively. Tamzin was born in 1970 so I'm sure she would have known them but maybe hadn't realised what happened to them in the war. Someone did say they didn't talk about it and, even if they had, a child of her age wouldn't have understood what it all meant. I still don't buy her shock at hearing that Italy and Italians were "the enemy" though!

[Olde Crone]

Ann

I agree - they were not concentration camps, they were internment camps, very different kettle of fish.

I can quite understand that people might not wish to fight their own countrymen, no matter how long they themselves had been exiled....but the price of that stance was very clear. And how on earth can any of us know whether or not Peter (at least) had Fascist sympathies? No one wants to think their relative was a Fascist....but the Fascists must have belonged to someone's family!

OC

[Shona]

Did anyone else get the impression that Tamzin knew her great grandparents and great uncle?

At first, I thought it was all new to her, but as the story developed, it became clear to me that she must have known her great-grandfather and great-uncle - and quite a lot about her Italian heritage. She talked about holidays in Barga as well as visiting relatives in Fishburn.

I got frustrated by the historian recounting the information about the internment camps on the Isle of Man - soooooo many assumptions were made. We haven't a clue about the Santi family's political sympathies. About a third of Italians in the UK were members of the fascist party.

Adelmo/Arthur was released on 8 May 1941 while Peter was released on 4 June 1941 as a 'special case' (according to the papers in the National Archives image library). I noted that, while he said that his normal occupation was ice-cream vendor, he was employed as a canteen attendant at Fishburn Colliery

[JBee]

It irritated me that she knew so much beforehand so wondered why they didn't research what she didn't know ie her ancestors in Italy or was there so little there of interest.

[Margaret in Burton]

It irritated me that she knew so much beforehand so wondered why they didn't research what she didn't know ie her ancestors in Italy or was there so little there of interest.

I suspect the criteria for making the programme is not whether the person does or doesn't know but would it make an interesting programme for the viewers.

[kiterunner]

Maybe if Tamzin had paid more attention to the first episode of "New Tricks" that she appeared in as Sasha Miller, she would have known more about Italy's role in WW2, and not said, "Were they, like, the enemy?":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3183596/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl

[Tom Tom]

I was left a bit confused by Adelmo and when he decided to stay in this country.

He originally came in 1913, but their eldest son was born in Italy in the early 1920s?

When did he go back to Italy? Did he go back when he was called up? Did he go back after the war? Did he meet and marry Maria in Glasgow, or back in Italy?

[Tom Tom]

Oh, and another point. Can't remember what show it was on; perhaps it was The One Show or The Bake Off, but there was a bit about ice cream and the Penny Lick.

That seemed to suggest that Penny Licks were banned in the late 1800s as they were spreading diseases which lead to the invention of the ice cream cone as we know it.

[Olde Crone]

Tom

Penny licks were still on the go well into the 20th century - my mum used to talk about them in her childhood in the 1920s in Scotland. Euuuwww!

Adelmo went back in 1916 when he was called up. It would have been traditional for him to go back to Italy to marry Maria, but maybe not!

OC

[anne fraser]

The penny lick was the Bake off. I don't think they would have had facilities to wash them between customers if they were street vendors. I got the impression she knew most of it already or could have asked her relatives if she was interested but I expect the celebrity is told to pretend to be suprised.

I remember Alexander Armstrong being handed a copy of Burke's peerage by his mother that had the family back to William the conqueror. I would have preferred a bit more about the rest of the family. I think it put me off the Isle of Man as a holiday destination. I was puzzled by the statement that the young men traveled to Scotland to make ice cream after the harvest. I would have thought icecream makers would be needed in the summer.

[Tom Tom]

Perhaps it said they were banned for street sellers but were still allowed in shops then?

OC, that is what I assumed happened with Maria, but they didn't actually say that had happened. They said he had been called up, but didn't say he had actually returned. He then obviously spent some time back in Italy between the end of the war (whenever he was demobbed) and coming back to England. Enough time to get married and have the eldest son. What was he doing during that time?

[Olde Crone]

Tom

I suspect - but don't know cos they didn't say - that Adelmo went backwards and forwards between Italy and Glasgow during that time, as many of them did, until they were no longer needed to help with the harvest etc (family all dead).

OC

[Mary from Italy]

I didn't see the programme but it is a pity they don't seem to have researched her Italian ancestors; Italian birth registers contain loads of information.

[ElizabethHerts]

I didn't see the programme but it is a pity they don't seem to have researched her Italian ancestors; Italian birth registers contain loads of information.

Mary, I think we did see a fleeting glance of an "atto di nascita" whilst Tamzin was at Barga.

This episode was interesting, but I found the beginning very slow as it seemed to be explaining at great length things I thought she would have already have known. I felt they could have done a lot more in the time.

Mary, I was very frustrated they didn't delve more into the Italian family's roots in Barga.