TNA Help with ordering document

[Just Gillian]

I found a naturalisation on TNA for a friend and sent her the link and explained how to order a copy. I ordered an 1830 denization years ago using the same method (I thought) without a problem.

She has received the following email

"Unfortunately the information that you have provided is insufficient to enable us to process this estimate. We cannot provide an estimate if it would be necessary to search through a document to find specific pieces of information which may be located randomly throughout a document.

In some cases, items which are listed in Discovery, our catalogue, are not physically separate documents. Instead they form part of a larger document and have to be located within that document in order to provide an estimate. We will make every effort to locate such items but, occasionally, this is not possible."

This was the results page on TNA -

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=Sheftil+Rubin+AND+Dublin

The second ref seems to be a duplicate so she was trying for the first. I told her to click on the "order a copy" button. The next page has the ref auto inserted so I said simply to click on "copy all pages".

Can anyone please explain what I have done wrong?

I can see that the records numbers are not allocated alphabetically, but presumed that they would be filed in numerical order and therefore easily accessible for copying.

[kiterunner]

That's strange, Gillian, because if you search their catalogue for the reference HO 144/1776, only the one result comes back.

[Just Gillian]

Exactly Kate. There doesn't seem to be a logical reason for their reply.

[Phoenix]

It is difficult to tell how they are ordered. Sometimes documents are loose in a box, and have found their way out of order, so you get the whole box and have to work through them. I would have said that was more likely to be the case with the duplicates - unless it was in book form.

I can't imagine there is a single box for HO 144.

[Just Gillian]

Thanks Phoenix.

HO144 apparently contains 63,710 items and the catalogue is "arranged in subject order within blocks of years". I tried to compare those figures with the file for the denization I ordered successfully but I see that one has now been digitised.

I've never had the opportunity to visit TNA so have no idea of the difficulty of the search necessary but I see that the charge for using their researcher is £100 per hour :eek:

Kate - apologies, I've just realised I completely forgot to thank you for looking.

[Phoenix]

I looked at some from the 1840s and they were perfectly easy to order and find. It might be worth emailing TNA with your query - Catalogue enhancements make no sense if you then can't get copies.

[Just Gillian]

Thanks Phoenix.

I've just retrieved my password from them and thought I'd have a go at ordering myself - just in case friend had completed her application incorrectly.

I was a bit thrown by the bit in their email "Unfortunately the information that you have provided is insufficient to enable us to process this estimate." because, as Kate said, HO144/1776 is only the one document and there isn't any more information that can be added.

If I receive the same reply, I'll follow your suggestion and email them.

[annswabey]

As you say, there is only one hit for that Ref so shouldn't involve any searching. The other ref is HO 334, so not a duplicate but the actual certificate. Are you sure she didn't request a price for the HO334 document, as that would be included with others, so would involve a search

[Just Gillian]

It's possible Ann, although I had suggested she should try for the first result first. The TNA reply just quotes the estimate ref number, not the number of the document requested.

I'm not at all confident of my skills on TNA site, or of understanding their refs. I put HO334 in and the heading said Duplicate Certificates of Naturalisation, so I assumed all under that ref were duplicates.

I wonder what is included in the other doc I've just ordered then - I thought it would be the certificate plus, with any luck, the affidavits by those who had known him for the required number of years.

[annswabey]

The HO144 ref is the one to get - far more detail

[Just Gillian]

Great! Thanks Ann. Fingers crossed this request goes through smoothly!

[annswabey]

Hope so - let me know if they say the same, although they shouldn't, really!

[Just Gillian]

Ok Ann, will do.

[Just Gillian]

Well, a successful response to my request for an estimate this time, but I'm shocked at the price - £70.00!:eek:

I can't remember what I paid for the 1830ish denization 6 or 7 years ago but I know I wouldn't have been able to justify spending anything like that sort of money. Other documents I've ordered in the past, running into three or four pages, have been less than £10.

The son in law's naturalisation papers are attached to someone's online FTM tree. He was also an Irish resident and his naturalisation was in 1891. There are 16 pages so I'm guessing the 1892 one I want would be around the same number.

I know my friend is desperate for the information, but, before I pass the details of the estimate on to her, can someone with more recent experience of ordering online from the TNA please tell me if this quote is in line with their prices these days.

[kiterunner]

Does the estimate say how many "units" there are in the file, Gillian? I had an estimate recently for a file of 4 "units" which came to £48 - £12 per unit. It said "ScanA2+online" for Copying Process, which I take to mean that they have to scan 4 documents, each A2 size. I remember that the previous estimate I had was pretty hefty too, though I can't remember the details and that one has expired now so it won't let me view it.

[Just Gillian]

Thanks Kite. I hadn't realised I could expand the details on the quote page until reading your post.

It says -

ScanA3online, 20 units, unit cost £3.50

After your £12 per unit quote, £3.50 almost feels like a bargain!

I think it might be worth trying for a quote for the naturalisation certificate only from the other file - if they are prepared to extract it. That should have his place of birth and the names of his parents plus perhaps the name of his wife - although that isn't vital as she was not the mother of his children - and children. It would mean missing out on statements regarding length of residence which would have helped with locating passenger lists and other potential family members.

[annswabey]

Their prices for A2 copies are high, but asking them for a price on a file with a highish number of A3 sheets is always going to work out more expensive than getting a researcher to do it

[Just Gillian]

Thanks Ann. That's useful to know.