Have I found Auntie Louie?

[Janet]

My grandmother's half-sister Emily Louisa Wilson was born to William Wilson and his wife Elizabeth (nee Crampton) in Headingley near Leeds, baptized 3 February 1861. (Elizabeth was my greatgrandmother and William was her first husband.)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2252/32355_249557-00369/3665877?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26ms T%3d1%26gss%3dangs-g%26gsfn%3dEmily%2bLouisa%26gsln%3dWilson%26msbdy% 3d1861%26msbpn__ftp%3dHeadingley%252c%2bYorkshire% 252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1681669%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5292%257c1681669%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26catBuc ket%3dr%26uidh%3d9uh%26cp%3d4%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGO RY%26h%3d3665877%26recoff%3d9%2b10%2b11%2b31%2b43% 26db%3dWYorkCoEBaptism%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

1861 4 mos. Headingley with parents and sister
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/WRYRG9_3352_3354-0250/10383218?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

1871 10 yrs. Headingley with widowed Mum and 2 sisters
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/WRYRG10_4567_4570-0566/26390818?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

1881 20 yrs. Headingley with mum and stepfather, 2 brothers, and 3 stepsisters
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/WRYRG11_4538_4541-0187/24941521?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

1891 30 yrs. Sutton nr. Keighley as Emily Spence with mum and stepfather, 2 stepsisters
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/WRYRG12_3534_3536-0622/4705226?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

1901 40 yrs. Glusburn, housekeeper for a photographer, and using Wilson again after the death of both her parents
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/YRKRG13_4029_4031-0258/25737534?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Tonight I found this:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1904/31874_221784-00426/3685762?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dukprobatecal%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dROOT_CATEGORY%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26 msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dEmily%2bLouisa%26gsln%3dWilson%2b OR%2bSpence%26msbdy%3d1861%26msbpn__ftp%3dHeadingl ey%252c%2bYorkshire%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d16816 69%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5292%257c1681669%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26catBuc ket%3dr%26uidh%3d9uh%26cp%3d4%26gss%3dangs-g&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

WILSON Emily Louisa of Crosshills Keighley Yorkshire spinster
died 14 May 1924 at Menston Yorkshire Administration (with
Will) (limited) Wakefield 30 December to Henry Edward Clegg
solicitor the attorney of Joseph James Wilson.
Effects £81 14s.

Joseph J. Wilson was one of her brothers.

Sutton, Crosshills and Glusburn are spitting distance. Menston is about 12 miles east.

So do I need to accept that this Emily Spence is probably her, poor dear, on the 1911? I can't for the life of me find her anywhere else. The place is right, the age is close, the birthplace is U.K. (Very helpful.) I wonder what those numbers at the far right indicate.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_27403_0129_33/38262368?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3d1911england%26rank%3d1%26new% 3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dEmily%2bLouisa%2 6gsln%3dWilson%2bOR%2bSpence%26msbdy%3d1861%26msbp n__ftp%3dHeadingley%252c%2bYorkshire%252c%2bEnglan d%26msbpn%3d1681669%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5292%257c1681669%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26catBuc ket%3dr%26uidh%3d9uh%26cp%3d4%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d50%26fh%3d50%26fsk%3dBED IdmwIgAAJMAH19Ws-61-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

My mother and her sisters called her Auntie Louie. As you can see, she never married. Just fishing for reasons here, but would they have locked her up as a lunatic in those days if they found out she was gay, for instance? Or perhaps she was exposed to too many toxic chemicals as housekeeper for that photographer she was working for on the 1901. Could that have affected her mind?

So sad. Tell me it isn't so.

[Mary from Italy]

The death cert may or may not help; it will give the place of death, but the informant may be someone from the hospital rather than a relative.

If the 1911 entry is the correct one, which I'm afraid looks very likely, this is probably where she died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Royds_Hospital

You can find brief details of the Wakefield and Menston asylums here:

http://studymore.org.uk/4_13_ta.htm

And this database shows what records are available, and where to get them:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/searchresults.asp

Some records have a 100-year closure period, but I think some are 70 years. I had no trouble getting the asylum file for a great-aunt of mine who died in an asylum in 1930.

You can get a transcript of Menston Hospital burials quite cheaply here:

http://www.parishchest.com/menston_hosptial_burials_1890-1969__P80138

but I don't know if it'll help much (you'll probably only get the person's name and date of burial, and their abode).

There were many reasons why someone might be in an asylum, but the files I've seen so far showed elderly people with symptoms that sounded like dementia, or younger people suffering from something like schizophrenia.

[Mary from Italy]

I'n having trouble finding her in the death index; this is the most likely entry, although the age is wrong and the surname's misspelled (Menston's in the Wharfedale registration district):

Deaths Jun 1924

Spencer Emily / 78 / Wharfedale / 9a / 179

[Mary from Italy]

I wonder what those numbers at the far right indicate.

I think it's just a statistical thing; they seem to have classed all the "lunatics" as no. 4 and "imbeciles" as no. 6.

[Janet]

Thanks so much for all that, Mary. I'm afraid it probably is true, and I'll probably go ahead and order that death cert to see if it might bring some light. I had looked at that one and wondered too. Seems my mother edited out the end of Auntie Louie's life for my young ears.

[tenterfieldjulie]

It was where quite a lot of elderly people ended up, especially when they had little understanding of mental illness. For some people it was the right choice, but for others it wasn't. Today with understanding of mental illness and medication, they would have been kept in the community.
For others like my father, he needed full time care and he was in a nursing home, not a mental institution. Hugs Janet. Julie

[kiterunner]

This is the death reg that goes with that probate entry:
Deaths Jun 1924
Wilson Emily L 62 Wharfedale 9a 185

[Janet]

Thank you Kite!!

[Janet]

It was where quite a lot of elderly people ended up, especially when they had little understanding of mental illness. For some people it was the right choice, but for others it wasn't. Today with understanding of mental illness and medication, they would have been kept in the community.
For others like my father, he needed full time care and he was in a nursing home, not a mental institution. Hugs Janet. Julie

Thanks, Julie. I was wondering what you were doing up in the middle of the night, and then I remembered where you are! :) Just wasn't expecting this turn of events, so hugs gratefully received, but it's all part of the tapestry.

[Janet]

Have ordered the list of Menston Hospital burials. Also ordered the cert for the death reg Kite found for me (in the nick of time! I was already on the GRO order website). So thanks again very much Mary and Kite and Julie.

[Mary from Italy]

Well done, Kite, I don't know why I was fixated on the Spence surname in view of the probate calendar entry :)

[Olde Crone]

It's as well to remember that the lunatic asylum was a very handy place for tidying away anyone who embarrassed society in any way. She may simply have been weepingly depressed, unable to care for herself properly.

I doubt if being gay would have ever been considered for a female. Most people had never heard of it and even if they had, would have been far too embarrassed to bring the subject up.

OC

[Janet]

You know, that sounds right once you say it, OC. Thanks. Maybe I'll find some more enlightenment in my mother's papers now that I have a clue what it was she wasn't talking about.

[Olde Crone]

If this wasn't so sad it would be funny.

Shortly before I married in the 1960s, my father sat me down to tell me that, as we had insanity in the family, I might wish to consider whether or not to have children. He counselled me not to tell anyone, not even my husband to be.

Turned out I had a great great uncle who had come back from WW1 with what we now call shellshock and he had been in a mental hospital ever since.

This illustrates how mental illness was so misunderstood by everyone, even relatively recently.

OC

[Janet]

Oh my goodness, what a story, OC. That certainly gives some perspective.

[Durham Lady]

Janet, she may have had dementia and sadly the asylum was where many elderly people were placed, not as today in specially adapted care units. I was shocked as an 18 year old trainee nurse, many many moons ago, to be taken to the local mental hospital and seeing several wards with elderly patients who " had lost their marble s to old age" as the nurse showing us around called them.

[Janet]

Thanks, Daphne. It's sobering to think that was within our own lifetimes, isn't it? She wasn't elderly, though, barely over 50 on the 1911. I don't know how early in life old-age dementia can strike. I know some unfortunates do suffer very early, so maybe you're right.

[Janet]

So that was it, then. I received the death cert from the GRO today.
Cause of death
1. Epilepsy: long duration
2. Arterial Sclerosis: long duration
and then some more marks that I can't make out. Maybe I'll post a bit of it for other eyes to have a look.

Thank you all for walking me through this.

Okay, here, can anyone make out any more?

Of Union Infirmary
Skipton, ?.?. [looks like u.d. - could it say r.d. for Registration District?]
Spinster, a
Dressmaker

1. Epilepsy: long duration
2. Arterial Sclerosis:
long duration - ?? ???? [looks like No P.M.??????]
Certified by
R.?. Hodgson ??

[Kit]

Sadly many with epilepsy were locked up back then for their own safety, so you have your answer there. There was no understanding back then.

[maggie_4_7]

It is no PM - no Post Mortem.

[Shona]

The u d is likely to be Urban District.

[kiterunner]

The name looks like R S Hodgson, MB.

[Shona]

The name looks like R S Hodgson, MB.

Stands for Bachelor of Medicine?

[Janet]

Thank you all. That answers a lot of nagging questions, with a little help from my friends. Sorry I've not been back sooner. Went to bed! Always a good strategy when perplexed.

[Durham Lady]

So sad for her. My husband had an aunt who had epilepsy from birth, born 1891. My father in law said their parents were advised to put her away and forget about her! The family didn't and kept her at home. When her parents died she lived until her death with my in laws. Sadly she died at the age of 69 years from severe burns after taking a seizure and falling against a gas fire.

[Olde Crone]

When I was a child in Lancashire, we lived not far from an epilepsy colony, which was part of the Asylum. As an adult in North London, again I lived near an epilepsy colony. Both places had hundreds of long term inmates and from that alone I can extrapolate that many thousands of people in England in the 19th and 20th centuries must have spent their whole lives in an institution just because they had epilepsy.

OC

[Janet]

Mary, OC, Daphne, Kite, Shona, Julie, Maggie, Toni thanks again.

Mary, I didn't find her name on the Menston Hospital Burials list that I purchased from the Wharfedale FH, so perhaps the family has buried her elsewhere (haven't found her yet) but thanks for that link.

Daphne, your story has echoes for me. I think maybe the bottom started to fall out for Louie in 1900 when her parents both died within 6 months of each other. I have a letter her mother wrote to my grandfather, her prospective son-in-law, where she says she is taking a train into Leeds and adds something like "I have Emily with me." I forget exactly how she said it but it always seemed to me a bit of an odd way to talk about her adult daughter, but now I understand that my greatgran must have kept her vulnerable daughter close.

So OC, then, by your account I suppose I have to regard Louie as relatively fortunate, having spent no more than a couple decades or so inside. That says a lot.

I've found and ordered a couple of books that hold some promise, I think, for enlightening me further.

West Riding Pauper Lunatic Asylum Through Time
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Riding-Pauper-Lunatic-Asylum-Through/dp/1445607506/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402534726&sr=1-1&keywords=west+riding+pauper+lunatic+asylum

Voices from the Asylum: West Riding Pauper Lunatic Asylum
http://www.amazon.com/Voices-Asylum-Riding-Pauper-Lunatic/dp/1445621738/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402534872&sr=8-1&keywords=voices+from+the+asylum

And look what I've found as I poked around again in my mother's things.

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u533/pix4janet/AuntieLouieedited_zpsd270ade1.jpg

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u533/pix4janet/AuntieLouie002_zps1808622a.jpg

A handsome woman.

[Kit]

A lovely photo to remember her by. So sad how her life ended.

[Janet]

Thanks Toni. Yes, this was a bittersweet find.

[Mary from Italy]

The photo is lovely. I have no photos of one great-aunt who spent all her adult life in an asylum, but I do have a photo of the other one (no relation to the first). However, I think the photo was taken in the asylum (at least it was in her file), and she has a really haunted look.

[Janet]

Mary, I saw some reference, in the write-ups for those books I gave links to, to some hospital administrator or doctor who took many photos of the asylum patients. I suppose your photo and mine could be some of those. I wish I could find that reference again! :(

[Mary from Italy]

Your photo's much better than mine, because it's full length, whereas mine is only head and shoulders.

[Janet]

I do feel very fortunate, Mary, because I can actually see that she has my hands. Since she was a half-sister of my grandmother's and I have my mother's and my mother's sisters' and my mother's mother's hands, that means our hands came from my grandma's mother not her father because Auntie Louie had a different father. I now know I have Crampton hands, which pleases me.

[Janet]

First name(s) E L
Last name W
Age 49
Relationship to household head Lunatic
Marital condition Single
Gender Female
Birth year 1862
Birth place -
Occupation Dressmaker
Address Menston Wharfedale
Parish Menston
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Registration district Wharfedale
Registration district number 491
Subdistrict Otley
Subdistrict number 3
Enumeration district 16
Piece number 26016
Schedule number 9999
Census reference RG14
Census reference RG14PN26016 RD491 SD3 ED16 SN9999
Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales
Category Census, land & surveys
Record collection Census
Collections from Great Britain


Daphne kindly PMd me this entry on the 1911 she found on FMP for a 49-year-old woman at Menston listed only by her initials E L W. Ancestry had transcribed her as E R W but I think FMP is probably correct. (I put in a correction on Ancestry to suggest that E L W might be more likely.)
1911 ERW or ELW (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_26016_0027_33/30706491?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3d1911England%26ran k%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dE%2bL%26gsfn_x%3dNN%26gsln%3dW%26gsln_x %3dXO%26msbdy%3d1862%26gskw%3dMenston%26_F0006301% 3dOtley%26dbOnly%3d_F0006301%257c_F0006301_x%252c_ F0005DFC%257c_F0005DFC_x%252c_F0006866%257c_F00068 66_x%252c_F0006867%257c_F0006867_x%252c_F0005DFD%2 57c_F0005DFD_x%252c_F0006300%257c_F0006300_x%252c_ F800686D%257c_F800686D_x%252c_83004005%257c_830040 05_x%252c_F000686E%257c_F000686E_x%252c_83004006%2 57c_83004006_x%26_F0005DFC%3d16%26_F0005DFD%3dWhar fedale%26_F0005DFD_x%3d1%26_F0006300%3d491%26_F000 6300_x%3d1%26_F800686D%3d26016%26_F800686D_x%3d1%2 6_83004005%3dSingle%26_F000686E%3dDressmaker%26uid h%3d9uh%26msbdp%3d1%26_83004003-n_xcl%3dm%26pcat%3d1911UKI%26fh%3d0%26h%3d30706491 %26recoff%3d68%2b69%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)

So this could indeed be her. She was born 3 February 1861, therefore on the 1911 taken 2 April 1911 she should be 50 whereas the census says 49, but it also says birth year 1862. The only thing is that it calls her a dressmaker whereas she was previously a laundress and a housekeeper, but her death cert also says dressmaker so I'm not too fussed about it. Her death cert spells out Emily Louisa Wilson, so no ambiguity there.

I suppose it's even possible she might have been counted twice, once as Wilson and once as Spence.

Thanks again so much for looking, Daphne.

[Merry]

but it also says birth year 1862

The birth year is not recorded on the census. Because her age was given as 49 fmp (or ancestry etc) will have calculated the year of birth as 1862 purely by subtracting 49 from 1911. So, everyone listed as 49 will also show 1862 even though the majority of them (if truly 49) would have been born in 1861, after April 2!

I agree, that's ELW.

[Janet]

Thanks, Merry.

[Janet]

A bittersweet postscript. I took advantage of the GRO's special offer to order a PDF of her father William Wilson's death cert.

I always wondered why he had died at such a young age, and the sad revelation is not really a surprise: Epilepsy 12 years certified. At least all the pieces fit together now.

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u533/pix4janet/18700714%20death%20William%20Wilson_zps7yg8yjc5.jp g

I had been meaning to post the above for some time but inertia prevailed until I had a message on Ancestry yesterday from an unknown 3rd cousin on my Crampton line. We've been emailing ever since with lots of photos and info, and I think that she will appreciate this thread. Maybe we'll even have a new GF member. Every cloud has a silver lining.

Thank you again, everyone, for all your help with Auntie Louie.

[Tom Tom]

I missed this thread first time round, but found it really interesting to read having spoken to you last summer about Aunt Louie.
Did you ever find out where she was buried?
Highroyds, as Menston Asylum was known, has had a major renovation since closing about 15 years ago. They've built lots of new houses and flats in the grounds and converted lots of the old buildings into flats and houses. I very nearly bought one of the flats.

[Janet]

Oh dear, Tom, time got away from me this week and I've only just realized I never answered your kind comments. The truth is that the simple wondering of where she was buried set me off, of course, on another dogged attempt to find her. I was hoping to turn something up and come back with good news, but sadly not. I'm going to keep trying, and maybe someday I'll have the answer. Thanks for asking.

[Tom Tom]

She died in Highroyds but wasn't buried in their graveyard?

Shall have a think.

[maggie_4_7]

I know it doesn't help to find your ancestor's burial but one of my ancestors died in Berry Wood Asylum in Duston, Northamptonshire and she is buried in the church yard where all her family are; in the village where she was born and where her family still lived.

This was in 1908.

So not all were buried in Asylum grounds.

[Janet]

Thanks, Tom. I do appreciate your interest.

Maggie, I was thinking along those lines and trying to find where her siblings are but without any luck so far. You make me realize I should back up a generation or more because I know where some of them are. Thanks for that insight.