View Full Version : Photography question.
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 12:09
I have finally got to see a photograph, supposedly of my 2 x GGM, Ellen Holden, nee Grimshaw, and her "stepson" Joseph, born 1854/5.
Joseph is a toddler, still in frocks, so the photo must have been taken in the 1850s. This raises several important questions lol!
How likely is it that someone of modest means (and possibly an unmarried mother) would have had a studio photograph taken BEFORE 1859?
Both are wearing extremely elaborate clothes of the no expense spared variety. I'm a bit uneasy!
OC
It's fairly vital to decide on a date I think OC. Albumen prints were invented (or first used commercially) in 1861 (from memory) and before that the cheapest form were Ambrotypes, which were usually set in an oval frame (there are other identifying features, but don't have time for all that!). Ambritypes were fairly expensive but not as much as dageorotypes (sp?) which came before.
Any buttons showing? Ambrotypes are usually in reverse.
Margaret in Burton
22-11-09, 12:39
OC
Has the person who has the photo any evidence it's them?
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 13:01
Thanks Merry, I'll look at the buttons, lol. It is in an oval frame.
Margaret
Written on the back "Ellen Grimshaw Holden, with my uncle Joe".
However, this must be hearsay evidence, as Ellen Grimshaw died in 1888 and the "writer on the back" wasn't born until 1901 and she was a posthumous child, her father being Joseph's younger brother. Hope that makes sense! In other words, the writer never knew Ellen Grimshaw (her grandmother) so isn't identifying from memory.
OC
If it's an ambrotype then it wouldn't normally have anything on the back as am ambrotype is produced on glass, though something could be written on the back of the frame, or it could be a reprint from years later.
I have a daguerreotype on glass and several copies of it showing an 1880s photographers name, just to throw me off course!!
OC, are we all going to get a look at it ? *looks hopeful, smiling sweetly* :)
I was wondering that. Might be able to date their clothing......
I have finally got to see a photograph, supposedly of my 2 x GGM, Ellen Holden, nee Grimshaw, and her "stepson" Joseph, born 1854/5.
Joseph is a toddler, still in frocks, so the photo must have been taken in the 1850s. This raises several important questions lol!
How likely is it that someone of modest means (and possibly an unmarried mother) would have had a studio photograph taken BEFORE 1859?
Both are wearing extremely elaborate clothes of the no expense spared variety. I'm a bit uneasy!
OC
How does the photo owner know the child isn't James or William (or any others Ellen was mother to?) The photo could then be dated later.
I have a picture of my GGgrandfather who died Jan 1861. It must have been taken late 1850s/1860; the original was on glass, and he's very nicely dressed and posed with a book.
I don't know that he had much money - he was a Master's Mate in the merchant navy - and after his death his daughter was put in an orphanage while her mother went out to work.
Don't know that this helps answer your question but it shows that even 'ordinary' folk had their pictures done in the early days of photography.
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 17:26
*Groans*
Well, I tried to send this photo to myself (from Facebook) but I am still awaiting its arrival! I will try to post it when/if I ever get it.
I'm not all that good at costume, but her dress does look consistent with the 1850s - very young Queen Victoria and one of those hankies on her head. The dress is I believe, a mantua, as it is elaborately folded and draped, rather than cut and sewn. Cannot see any buttons.
The child's dress is also a marvel of sewing and folding along broad stripes. The child is, ahem, rather broad of visage and has the sort of looks only a mother could love, pmsl. As Joseph later morphed into an Alfred Hitchcock lookalike, I'm fairly certain this IS Joseph and not one of his younger brothers. After all, if you had three children, you'd surely have a family photo if you were going to all that bother, not just the ugly one!
This throws the cat well and truly amongst the pigeons though. Joseph was supposed to be the son of James Holden and his first wife. Ellen Grimshaw was James' second wife and was a spinster at marriage.
I have never been able to find a birth reg for Joseph, either as a Holden OR as a Grimshaw. I have a huge long complicated list of Joseph Holden/Grimshaw births/baptisms which I occasionally play with, but apart from eliminating a few, have never really got anywhere with this. However, I notice that one or two "new" birth regs have come onto Lancsbmd, so maybe I'll do some crafty ordering.
I must say I'm very disappointed in Ellen though - she was supposed to be a saintly paragon of virtue. It was her husband James who was the rotter.
This firmly slams two doors in my face. I will never know who James' first wife was because I will never be able to match up Joseph's birth info with his wife AND it is unlikely in the extreme that I will ever know who Joseph's father was, if he was illegitimate.
OC
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 17:51
My brother has just emailed me to say that in 1858, there are over 40 photographers listed in the Hulme/Ardwick District of Manchester, so family photos were not the preserve of the very rich, even back then.
OC
kiterunner
22-11-09, 18:25
Are you saying the photo would have been taken before Ellen's marriage, OC?
I wondered if the photo was of Ellen and her first biological child (ie assuming Joseph was her step-son and not her biological son). That could explain why he was the only child in the photo. On the other hand, is her son James your direct ancestor and therefore not a candidate for 'a child only his mother could love'?!! lol :rolleyes:
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 18:35
Kite
That's what I think, yes. Ellen and James married in 1859. Joseph was born c1854/5, and this photo shows Ellen with Joseph, who is aged about 3.
Ellen was a spinster at marriage in 1859, James was a widower, so the odds were that Joseph was James's son by his first marriage, but there has always been a bit of niggling doubt, in the absence of any formal record.
In later life, Joseph used the middle name of Grimshaw, but as we were told that he was very attached to his "stepmother", we assumed the name was a tribute to her after her death.
OC
It's interesting how the person who wrote on the back of the photo gave Ellen her maiden name as a middle name. I have never know anyone do that unless they were a family history enthusiast (though I never describe women that way myself, I know a lot do).
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 18:44
Merry
three sons
Joseph b c 1854/5, Manchester, on all known records.
James Holden senior m Ellen Grimshaw in 1859
James jnr b 1860 and definitely a child of the marriage. It is his posthumously born daughter who has written on the back of the photo.
William b 1864, my great grandfather.
James and William have rather sharp, ascetic faces. Joseph has a large round moonshaped face, very fleshy and Alfred Hitchcockish!
However, I do think this is definitely a photo of Ellen Grimshaw (rather than a relative on the other side of the family, James' daughter's mother) because not only does she look startlingly like my youngest daughter, she also has a rather pointed top lip which has been bothering me all day....I've finally identified that top lip as belonging to my little Grandson, Oliver, who is Ellen's great great great great grandson!!!
OC
OC if you go to the photo and right click on it and then save to pictures it will just save on your comp ;;
kiterunner
22-11-09, 18:53
It's interesting how the person who wrote on the back of the photo gave Ellen her maiden name as a middle name. I have never know anyone do that unless they were a family history enthusiast (though I never describe women that way myself, I know a lot do).
It usually seems to be Americans who do that because it is quite usual nowadays for an American woman to add each husband's surname on after her previous surname. So Americans who are tracing their family tree often do the same thing for the women in their tree.
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 19:03
Edith WAS into family history in a big way apparently, so this may be why she wrote "Ellen Grimshaw Holden" on the back. That, and possibly to distinguish between all the other Ellen Holdens in our family!
Edith does seem to have been accurate in her labelling of photos - there is one of my father as a baby (goodness knows HOW she got hold of that!) correctly labelled, with parents names on the back, including mother's maiden name.
She knew all about me and my brother. It was very strange and rather spooky to hear all this information from my 3rd cousin, who I didn't know existed until he made contact with me through GR.
OC
Edith WAS into family history in a big way apparently
In which case it was very naughty of her to say Ellen Grimshaw Holden, with my uncle Joe - sounds like when I asked my aunt to label her photos (hundreds) and they all said 'my grandmother' or 'my cousin John' etc which was little help really! lol
So now you think Joseph was Ellen's son?
In which case it was very naughty of her to say Ellen Grimshaw Holden, with my uncle Joe - sounds like when I asked my aunt to label her photos (hundreds) and they all said 'my grandmother' or 'my cousin John' etc which was little help really! lol
So now you think Joseph was Ellen's son?
Lol Merry! My mum had several albums she'd inherited from goodness knows where with labels like 'me and mum in the garden'!
Very useful (not!)
Olde Crone
22-11-09, 19:44
Merry
Yes, I'm beginning to think that Joseph must have been Ellen's illegitimate son. Well, I always had it as a possiblity, but it was a more remote possibility than it is now I've seen this photo!
Hm, now I don't know what to do...send for all four "new" birth certs, or send for Joseph's marriage cert to see who he names as his father and hope for a short cut!
It's annoying because Joseph isn't my direct relative of course.
(As for confusingly labelled photos, I have one labelled by my father which says "Ellen/Pamela Holden". It turns out it's none of them, it's Edith!)
OC
Margaret in Burton
22-11-09, 21:27
I have a photo that says "grandads uncle".
Who wrote it, I haven't a clue.
Uncle John
22-11-09, 22:07
I have a photo that says "grandads uncle".
Who wrote it, I haven't a clue.
Grandad's grandson, of course!!
Margaret in Burton
22-11-09, 22:16
Actually I think it was grandads grand daughter. i.e. my 1st cousin.
But which uncle?
Olde Crone
23-11-09, 17:45
OK, I have now got Ellen's photo on my computer (thankyou borobabs!).
Can some kind soul explain in VERY EASY WORDS please, how I get it from my computer onto here?
OC
Oh ratz
Firstly, are you familiar with photobucket ?
If yes then make sure that you have the pbucket file size option set at the maximum ... that's 1MB for the free account.
Then all you need to do is copy/paste into the reply box on here
If that's too confusing then you could email the pic to someone sensible and they'll do it for you
kiterunner
23-11-09, 18:19
*nominates Rachel as someone sensible*
*nominates Rachel as someone sensible*
*faints* :)
Will PM my email address to OC anyway
buzzing off to cook the evening meal now ....
Olde Crone
23-11-09, 19:09
I'll have a fiddle with photobucket then...just thought there might be a quicker way (quicker for me, I mean!)
OC
three hours have passed.......................:o
Olde Crone
23-11-09, 22:18
Merry
Two and a half of them spent wiping the sweat from my brow I can assure you!
They've changed photobucket since I was last on there. I'm SURE I had more photos on there but only seem to have a measly ten, nine of which are upside down for some reason.
Off for another go. Back soonish.
OC
Olde Crone
23-11-09, 22:21
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/marjoriepeek/10965_203893656527_715991527_406081.jpg
Olde Crone
23-11-09, 22:22
Oh, I did it, I did it, I did it!!!
*Faints*
I bet you've all forgotten the original question by now, I certainly have!
OC
:D HOOOOORRAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!! :D
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/rachelscand/FTF/BADDANCING.gif
OMG - Well, that's a shock!!! She looks very like that woman you posted a photo of on FTF a very long time ago.....obviously I don't know that lady's identity........
At first glance she reminds me (the hair do) of Olivia de Havilland in ? um .... something or other
Maybe Gone With the Wind or The Heiress
Olde Crone
23-11-09, 22:52
Blinky heck Merry, my brother has just emailed me to express his opinion that she was an ugly old bat!!!!
Actually, I think she is rather handsome and has a sweet expression. She was nearly 40 when this photo was taken. But you do see what I mean about the child though, don't you, not a pretty child at all.
Now - do we think her clothes are compatible with a date in the 1850s?
OC
Hair parted in the centre and worn over the ears is 1850s and early 60s, I believe
I have a few mid to late 1850s photos and the clothing and hair etc look very similar.
The boy would have had to stay very still - I'm amazed all his fingers are in focus (min exposure time for an ambrotype was 5 seconds, but often noticeably longer). I'm sure if he was dressed in contemporary clothing and had a hair cut, you wouldn't think he looked particularly strange - he does have a round face though!
Honestly, I still can't believe the other similarlty I mentioned. I came in here this morning expecting not to notice it, but if anything it seemed even more obvious. Tell your brother he is talking a load of **** :(:d.
I would think the photo is in reverse, as if it isn't she would be showing off her left hand with no wedding ring!
maggie_4_7
24-11-09, 07:47
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff207/marjoriepeek/10965_203893656527_715991527_406081.jpg
awww I think the child has a cherub little face, he looks petrified there though, I must say I am of the same opinion as your brother about the lady ;)
I notice the lady's eyes are a bit skew wiff.
Have a look at this on Rootschat
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,421292.0.html
Olde Crone
24-11-09, 10:30
Thankyou Rachel, that's not in the slightest bit useful lol! 1850s/1860s means the child could be any one of four children. Still, it does mean it is almost definitely Ellen as the period is exactly right.
Maggie - yes, I wondered about the eyes, whether it was just the way the camera caught her.
OC
She just looks as if she is looking to the side to me.
I have about a dozen ambrotype photos and only in two of them is the subject looking towards the camera. I don't know if there was a reason for this, or not.
I notice the lady's eyes are a bit skew wiff.
Difficult to tell if there's anything wrong with her eyes because of the pixellation and general muck on the pic ... here's a close-up
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/rachelscand/OCpicweb.jpg
A better scan would help a great deal !
I'm presuming this is an ambrotype copied onto a piece of card at a later date? Don't suppose there are any photographers details? (doesn't look like it)
Olde Crone
24-11-09, 12:27
I don't think there are any photographer's details on the back, but I'll ARSK.
Funny, people have remarked in the past that I, and one of my daughters, have a habit of looking at people out of the corner of our eyes (too lazy to turn our heads properly, lol).
OC
Anyone else got that 'widows peak' of the top lip in your tree? (sorry, don't know what it's called!)
maggie_4_7
24-11-09, 14:41
I've got a Widow's Peak (hairline goes into a point on forehead) not sure why its called that but as I've got older its not so noticeable. My mother had it too. Didn't know they called lips by it!
I'm not sure that lady in the photograph has one. But now Rachel has 'blown' it up it really does look like she has a cast in her eye not sure that they call it that now of course.
As for the eyes generally I don't remember an awful lot about being photographed professionally except for one when I was about 9 years old and the photographer said to me 'look over there away from the camera' why I don't know.
Of course that doesn't help OC working out when the photograph was taken but I don't think you're going to pin it down except for about a 10 year span.
This could be how here eyes should look but it is difficult to tell from the image because a lot of the detail is obscured by the pixellation/noise
With apologies to OC ~ don't know if you mind her being fiddled with :confused: will delete asap if you say
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o228/rachelscand/OCpicsepiaweb.jpg
maggie_4_7
24-11-09, 15:57
Ahhh the Lady looks a lot better on that one and she is obviously looking at something other than the camera. She looks a bit sad actually.
Ahhh the Lady looks a lot better on that one and she is obviously looking at something other than the camera. She looks a bit sad actually.
:D I'm very tempted to give her a little smile, but think I'd better leave it at that.
Olde Crone
24-11-09, 19:07
Oh, I had a light bulb moment in the library!
There just happened to be a book in the returns tray about English Costume through the ages and of course I sat and had a look through it.
The LIGHT BULB moment came in 1884, lol! Merry, are you meaning the photo I put on FTF of an elderly lady (my GGM, Eleanor Green) who was wearing a strangely old-fashioned dress for a photo that was supposedly taken in the 1910s?
If that's who you meant, then SPOT ON - the illustration for day wear in 1884 was a dress very similar to the one my supposed GGM was wearing.
It would make a lot more sense if that was Ellen GRIMSHAW, nearly 30 years after the enclosed photo, and NOT Ellen Green, who died in 1919 at the age of 52, but who looked nearer 70 in the photo!
Phew, is that making sense at all? I'm just off to compare the photos.
That widow's peak top lip hasn't appeared on my side of the family until now...my grandson Oliver. I have his photo as my screensaver and see that little pointed top lip every time I log off!
(Rachel - I don't mind the tweaking at all!)
OC
(Rachel - I don't mind the tweaking at all!)
OC
Phew *sighs with relief* :D
The LIGHT BULB moment came in 1884, lol! Merry, are you meaning the photo I put on FTF of an elderly lady (my GGM, Eleanor Green) who was wearing a strangely old-fashioned dress for a photo that was supposedly taken in the 1910s?
If that's who you meant, then SPOT ON - the illustration for day wear in 1884 was a dress very similar to the one my supposed GGM was wearing.
It would make a lot more sense if that was Ellen GRIMSHAW, nearly 30 years after the enclosed photo, and NOT Ellen Green, who died in 1919 at the age of 52, but who looked nearer 70 in the photo!
Phew, is that making sense at all? I'm just off to compare the photos.
I wish I was that clever! I can't say I remember that photo at all. It's my fault I made the assumption you had only ever ventured into the world of posting up photos the once!
The image I remember was a contemporary one of a slim fair haired lady standing behind a glass case of jewellery! Sound familiar? :rolleyes:
P.S. you will have to post up the photo of the supposed Eleanor Green again! lol
Margaret in Burton
24-11-09, 21:11
I wish I was that clever! I can't say I remember that photo at all. It's my fault I made the assumption you had only ever ventured into the world of posting up photos the once!
The image I remember was a contemporary one of a slim fair haired lady standing behind a glass case of jewellery! Sound familiar? :rolleyes:
P.S. you will have to post up the photo of the supposed Eleanor Green again! lol
Ooooooooh don't we all remember that. Spoilt everyone's vision of OC for ever. Margaret Rutherford indeed!!
Uncle John
24-11-09, 21:38
Perhaps OC has a portrait in the loft.
This is far too confusing
Wasn't there a pic of a woman who looked like Anton Diffring ? (Victorian, flat chested and wearing a rather elaborate costume with pointy bits dangling from it) and another of a younger woman in blouse and skirt sitting in a chair ?
Or did they belong to someone else ?
Olde Crone
24-11-09, 21:43
Blimey, Ellen Green's photo was still on FTF!
Nope, she isn't Ellen Grimshaw, not by any stretch of the imagination, so that's another good theory gone west.
OC
Blimey, Ellen Green's photo was still on FTF!
Nope, she isn't Ellen Grimshaw, not by any stretch of the imagination, so that's another good theory gone west.
OC
Aha ~ YES those are the ones
woops .... the pointy bits are not dangling they point upwards
(goodness ~ 25th Jan 2008)
Blimey, Ellen Green's photo was still on FTF!
Nope, she isn't Ellen Grimshaw, not by any stretch of the imagination, so that's another good theory gone west.
OC
Can someone post the link so I know where to look?
OC lovely photo, but I can't help date it.
I agree with your brother but she looks a lot better in Rachel's cleaned up version.
I am enjoying this. - its almost like a detective story - hope it has a good ending lol
My thoughts too, were that he was her illegitimate son ??
Jood
Olde Crone
27-11-09, 10:13
Well, my bro is now so intrigued, he's off to Manchester Register Office today, armed with a list of possible certs for Joseph GRIMSHAW's birth.
We have also found out when Joseph died and where he was buried, remarkably easily and I don't know what took us so long. His age at death confirms what we knew as his birth year.
I'll keep you informed lol.
OC
I found mysaelf reading this thread again because of the post Kite put up about Isle on Man records on Family Search!!
OC - Did you ever find Joseph's birth cert?
Do you know if William Grimshaw b abt 1819 Ramsay Isle of Man, who has a raft of children by 1861 with his wife Margaret, is Ellen's brother? His 'eldest' child is Elinor b abt 1842 in America!
This might be his marriage:
name: William Grimshaw
event: Marriage
event date: 13 Jun 1841
event place: Michael, Isle of Man
gender: Male
marital status: Single
spouse: Margaret Stewart
spouse's marital status: Single
digital folder number: 004500718
I was thinking the cert might help with sorting out the problem of the reversed fathers names/surnames on James Holden's marriage cert.
Olde Crone
04-11-11, 09:24
Yes, that's him, Merry - I mean William is Ellen's brother.
Elinor, born 1842 in America, later (much later) marries her cousin Daniel Jackson, who is the son of Jane Jackson, nee Grimshaw.
Jane, Ellen, John and William Grimshaw are all siblings, born IOM, except Jane who was born liverpool. I have the IOM angle tied up back to about 1740, thanks to the superb record keeping on the IOM!
In answer to your question, no, I still haven't resolved the puzzle of this child,(Joseph Grimshaw Holden) nor have I found his birth cert. But I shall have another look for his baptism I think, as Ellen was a deeply religious woman by all accounts.
OC
I hate to say this, but I've seen Elinor's death and probate entry in 1887 and she wasn't called Jackson!
The probate record says: "Ellen Reddish, late of Chasetown near Wallsall" which is where she was living in 1881. The exor was Arthur Sopwith who was her employer in 1881 in Chasetown.
In 1881 she is Ellen Reddish servant widow 38 nurse domestic b New York, America
I only looked because I have a couple of Reddishs in my tree, but they are probably not connected to Ellen's husband after all :o
Olde Crone
04-11-11, 12:39
Silly me, it was Annie Grimshaw who married her cousin Daniel, not Elinor! That's what comes of trying to keep a tree in my head.
OC
lol! *breathes sigh of relief*!!
Uncle John
04-11-11, 13:43
Silly me, it was Annie Grimshaw who married her cousin Daniel, not Elinor! That's what comes of trying to keep a tree in my head.
Sounds like the young woman from Leeds who swallowed a packet of seeds!
Silly me, it was Annie Grimshaw who married her cousin Daniel, not Elinor! That's what comes of trying to keep a tree in my head.
OC
I'm shocked that you don't know who married who. I expect you to know who's who and also their various dates of birth, death and marriage. :p
I'm shocked that OC has an illegitimate child in her tree!!!! Sounds as though her ancestors were no better than they should be!!!!
Doesn't OC think he is the son of the husband and his first wife rather than illegitimate?
Or is that a ruse to make us think her tree is flawless?
Mind you how flawless can a tree be when they keep heads in the cupboard?
lol Toni!
OC - I forgot to ask.....Was Ellen Grimshaw's father James or William? I'm guessing William and that James Holden said his father was also James Holden because he was illegitimate? What occ did he give for his father?
I presume you have found James in 1851 and he is single?
Olde Crone
05-11-11, 10:12
Ellen Grimshaw's father was William Grimshaw.
James Holden SAID his father was James Holden, but I think that James Holden was his grandfather, who was definitely called James Holden. However, the grandfather was a farmer, but James said he was a Brewer. Brewer was the occupation of Robert Ashton, who is the man I am absolutely sure was his father - there is a baptism followed by a bastardy order for James Holden, illegitimate son of Jane Holden and Robert Ashton.
I have never found my James Holden born c1825, on the 1851 census. I think he is in the wet census for Manchester. Nor have I found him in 1891 - he died in 1898 in Patricroft, Lancs.
OC
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