View Full Version : Evidence-less ancestors
Has anyone else got any direct ancestors for whom they have no information other than census returns?
I have some direct ancestors - mostly in London I think - where there are no birth registrations, baptisms or marriages but I do have death certificates, burials and other stuff plus the hope of baptisms for some if RC records ever become more easily available.
But I have one 4 x great grandmother who I can only find on census, from 1851-1901, and nothing else, not even a likely death registration. I have no maiden name, no marriage, no birth registrations or baptisms for her children and so far no death or burial....
Well, no, not to that extent! My first thought was, fancy having a 4xg-grandparent alive in 1901! lol but I guess it's not so good when they are so frustrating!
Of course I now want to know who she is :rolleyes: - I had a very quick look at your ToGG threads, but either missed her or you didn't post her details.
I have a friend whose entire family come from Denbighshire and has three Jones grandparents. The majority of her tree appear on the census only!
She's the Mary in this thread, Merry but we mainly looked at her son-in-law and daughter - http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=7485&highlight=whitty
I don't know why I didn't add her to the ToGG threads. I've since probably found daughter Eliza Cox in 1911 in St Luke's Workshouse, Shoreditch - a 64 year old widowed french polisher born Clerkenwell. This morning I've found her admission 21 Oct 1910 and she's in the Religious Creed register - C of E, born 1847 of 13 Eagle Street (right area). In the dead or discharged column it says OR 1.5.1911 but I can't find the removal order records on Ancestry...I assume Mary is dead by then
Lol! I don't think I have one Jones ancestor:-) But I do have a lot of ancestors living in London who managed to live under the radar quite successfully!
Ooh, I remember that thread, but as you say it was more about the next generation.
I'll have another look later on but don't hold your breath!!
Olde Crone
31-12-13, 08:53
Yes, I have my 2 x GGF, Thomas Bell, born about 1820/9 in Carlisle. He appears on census with wildly differing ages and on his (second) marriage cert his father's name is blank. Almost every Thomas Bell born in the 1820 decade in Carlisle was illegitimate, so it's hopeless.
OC
To save me looking, do you have Henry senr's father's first name? (ie the father of Henry b 1823-ish)
I'm comforted, OC :-)
No, Merry - I've not found a likely 1841 for Henry bc1823
Me neither!
I do feel there is a key to this......it's just finding it that's difficult. I wonder if they were using a different surname on the census to all other records. I have an example on my tree where a family use the husband's step-father's surname on the census but his birth surname on everything else. The children gradually switch over to using their step-grandfather's surname for everything. It took me ages to find mine but once the elusive other surname was discovered everything fell into place!
*crosses everything*
I've wondered that - I've tried searching for baptisms and marriages without surnames and so on but that's a bit of a task. It seems odd that there isn't a likely death reg for Mary. I'm hoping I find something when there are more poor law records indexed - I have very high hopes for them all round lol
Margaret in Burton
31-12-13, 11:17
Yes, my OH has one. His grandfather. I won't say the name but Merry knows full well his name. :D
He joined the army, married, died but was never born. He's on the 1911 census, but not the 1901 or 1891 which suggests he was born 1885 in Rotherham. His marriage cert and death cert all corroborate the age.
No birth record.
kiterunner
31-12-13, 12:25
I don't think Eliza's poor law records are likely to have much information about her parents as she will have acquired her husband's settlement. But you never know. Mary might turn up in the poor law records in her own right, though.
kiterunner
31-12-13, 13:04
There is a Mary Ann Whitty death Jan-Mar 1910 Shoreditch, age 88; have you looked into that one?
I've seen him, Marg :-) My great grandfather - born 1875/6 - has no birth record nor any of his siblings but I have enough stuff on him otherwise and I should get his baptism eventually when the RC records are released on disc.
Kate, I don't know why I haven't tried that - I must order it. I think the district through me, although Holborn union is in Shoreditch. I was hoping Eliza's records might lead me to Mary and if that's the death it looks like Mary might have gone into City Road Workhouse as well. I'll have a look in the records before I order the cert.
My ggm's birth wasn't registered in 1876 - however I did find her baptism in the RC parish records.
Well, I did spend a good while looking for more on Henry and Mary today, with no success whatsoever!!
Hope that's not an omen for the new year!! lol
Thanks you, Merry and I'm sure it isn't:-)
Julie, that's what I'm hoping for with my great grandfather.
I think the death Kate found is Mary! Admitted to City Road Workhouse from St Andrew Holborn parish in 1909 and died 4 Feb 1910 aged 86.
Can anyone read the address on this image? I thought it looked like Hewitts Street but I can't find anything on that -
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1557/31436_189688-00678?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d1557%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=31436_189689-00177
Hmmm, I thought the W could be NR and/or the TT could be TH, but trying lots of combinations on fmp address search, including varying the vowels, got me nowhere fast!
It's odd isn't it - it must be the right Mary but I just wanted to locate the street to be happy she was in the right area, which was mostly around Farringdon station. I'll have to have a look on an old map sometime.
There's currently a Hewett St next to Shoreditch High St tube station, but that's about a kilometre to the west of Farringdon St and I don't know if the road existed at that time.
Thanks Merry - that's quite feasible and is very near City Road, although the tick for parish is under St Andrew's I'm sure (on iPhone now).
There's Hewitt St Shoreditch showing up on FMP address search for 1911. It goes up to number 16, but no one at number 3!! lol
I think Hewitt St in 1911 is the same street as Hewett Street today as it's off Curtain Road Shoreditch in both cases.
Thank you - Eliza Cox was admitted from Eagle Street - they're never in the same place. I've ordered Mary's death cert even though I know it won't have much info as a workhouse death but it has to be her so thanks to everyone I have advanced a bit!
I should think the painter/printer thing on Henry's death cert is just a mistake made by whoever registered his death if it was done by a workhouse employee.
I think so, Merry - I know I couldn't find another candidate for the death cert and there isn't much difference in painter and printer written down. It's actually indexed as Whitley but on the certificate I think is just as likely to be Whittey
Zoemcdougall
01-01-14, 20:43
Aza, I have a similar problem my great grandfather, Can find him on census records, I have his marriage & death cert. Can't find his birth record as many on here know. the only concrete bits I have on him are from 1899 the year of his marriage & onwards. His year of birth differ slightly on census records, & don't match with the age on his death cert. Plus I don't know for sure of were he was born as on census records has his place of birth as Sheffield but lived most of his life in North wales. But from a recent trip back to North Wales to visit family it was suggested that he was actually old than the age stated on his death cert.
Hope something turns up for you some time Zoe :-)
Zoemcdougall
02-01-14, 12:42
Thankyou Aza, Hoping one day I'll find out more about him. But with not many of his family left, & his youngest daughter who is still alive at 97 won't talk about her father I fear I am at the end of the road.
Well blow me, the certificate has already arrived and there's much more info on there than other workhouse deaths I've got - Widow of Henry Whitty House Decorator.
Thank you Kate!
There was an inquest as she fell in the street - it's not likely to have been reported is it?
Merry, the address is 3 Hewett Buildings Smithfield so it's recorded wrong in the workhouse records (shocker :-)
Margaret in Burton
04-01-14, 13:22
Well blow me, the certificate has already arrived and there's much more info on there than other workhouse deaths I've got - Widow of Henry Whitty House Decorator.
Thank you Kate!
There was an inquest as she fell in the street - it's not likely to have been reported is it?
There may be an inquest report in the local newspaper.
kiterunner
04-01-14, 13:45
Yes, it will likely have been reported in the local paper, but unfortunately the British Newspaper Archive doesn't have many local papers for areas / districts within London online yet. I'm impatiently waiting for some!
Thanks Marg, have had a go on FMP but I don't suppose 'old lady falls in street and breaks her hip' would have made a very interesting coroners report
Ah right so it's the coverage. Have one for 1844 I need too. Will await more records...
Anstey Nomad
06-01-14, 17:25
Evidence-less ancestors? Dare I mention Joseph Bodycote, who travelled the world - India, Mansfield, Leicester - creating all kinds of havoc, but who does not appear to have been born, or to have died.
I sometimes wonder if he's still out there...
I think I have seen him about these boards:-)
tenterfieldjulie
08-01-14, 07:47
You don't think you should be looking for the body without the coat or the coat without the body ..... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ runs howling off the thread ...
Anstey Nomad
08-01-14, 18:36
Don't laugh! I'm relying on you lot to join up the dots one day.
tenterfieldjulie
08-01-14, 22:20
Seriously have you thought of looking for Mr. Body or Mr. Cote?
\ Have you tried looking at the name Bodycote earlier and later, to see what variations they are?
I was amazed with some of my Cornish names how they changed .. even with the same person eg Ibbot, Ebbatt, Hibbert, Hebbat ... Brounfeld, Broomfield, .. Brownfield
Serrell, Searle etc had about 10 different versions. I have to say that the Cornish OPC was marvellous with this, as I could just put in Ib or Eb .. I think Kate or Merry suggest adding a H..
The thing is with Bodycote being a rare name, maybe the transcribers had never hear of it !!.. Heavens knows what they put
Then of course I had Sloman transcribed as Homan, but the best is Smith as Zmith ..
You will find them hopefully sooner than later AN Cheers. Julie
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