Patrick Ryan

[Macbev]

I really think this one is a lost cause. All I know is from my grandmother's marriage certificate...and she told lots of lies. Her death certificate was filed by an informant who did not know much about her, and my father would never tell me much - what he did say I have later disproved.

I've never met my father's aunts, uncles or cousins on his mother's side and I have guesswork, supposition, but no facts :( The guess work comes from a possible passenger list from the Belgravia which arrived in Sydney in 1884) If I did find the correct family, then I can 'guess' the following:

Name:Patrick RYAN

Date and place of birth:Tipperary Ireland, abt 1820
Names of parents:Unknown

Date and place of baptism - if applicable:not known

Details of each of his marriage :Married Bridget UNKNOWN, b. abt 1836 Tipperary. Don't know when they married, but the large family of (possibly) 13 children seem to have been born between abt 1860 and 1877 in Tipperary, so 'guestimate' a marriage date of abt 1859 in Tipperary.

Occupation(s) - if any:Ag. Lab; possibly miner

Military service - if any :Not known

Addresses where they lived: I believe the family emigrated to Australia, possibly to goldfields in the east, before fetching up on the Western Australian goldfields. I have located some of my grandmother's known siblings in Kalgoorlie, Kookynie, Boulder and later in Perth and Fremantle. I have actually met some second cousins but have discovered I know more than they do, as their parents were orphaned and dispersed.

Date, place and cause of death: Not known
Date and place of burial / cremation:Not known

Details of will / administration of their estate - if applicable:Not known
Memorial inscription - if any:not known

[Kit]

Bev you say you KNOW things from your Grandma's marriage cert. What is it you know?

Don't know if it will help but you never know.

[kiterunner]

What were the names and approx birth years of the 13 children, Bev?

[Macbev]

The 1904 marriage cert says Johanna's parents were Patrick RYAN, farmer, and Bridget RYAN. It also says she was 31 years, thus a birth date in abt 1873.

My father's 1905 birth cert says Johanna was born in Tipperary, Ireland and was 30 years old, thus a birth date abt 1875.

Her death cert in 1945 not only calls her 'Judith' rather than 'Johanna', but states she was 78 years (thus a birth date abt 1867) and that she had lived in Western Australia 50 years.

The Judith/Johanna conundrum was one of which I had long been aware, my mother saying it was one name, my father, the other. She inhabits the same grave as my grandfather as 'Judeth.'

If the family on the "Belgravia" which arrived in May 1884 is indeed my set of RYANS, then she was called Judith and was born abt 1868 in Tipperary, Ireland.

The children in this group match, to a large degree, known siblings, although there are children there whom I did not know about before. My mother told me there were 13 in the family, but could never remember all their names. Those few siblings I have been able to verify (high lighted below) match the ages given on the passenger list,(apart from Johanna/Judith).

Ryan Patrick; 64; ag.Labourer;b. Tipperary; RC; literate
Ryan, Bridget; 48;b. Tipperary; RC; literate [b.abt 1836]
Ryan, Ellen;22;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate [b.abt 1862]
Ryan, Mary;21;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate [b.abt 1863]
[B]Ryan, Grace;19;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate [B]
Ryan, Bridget;17;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate [b.abt 1867]
Ryan, Judith;16;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate
Ryan, Annie;14;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate [b.abt 1870]
Ryan, Catherine;13;Domestic;b. Tipperary;RC;literate [b.abt 1871]
Ryan Sarah,;11;school;b. Tipperary; RC; literate [b.abt 1873]
[B]Ryan, Matthew;9;school;b. Tipperary; RC; literate [b.abt 1875]
Ryan, Michael; 8;school;b. Tipperary; RC; literate [b.abt 1876]
Ryan. Margaret;5;school;b. Tipperary; RC; literate [b.abt 1877]

[kiterunner]

Starting with Grace, because her name seems to be the least common (apart from Judith!) Family Search lists a birth for Grace Ryan, parents Patrick and Bridget, 11 Jun 1864, Kilpatrick District, Tipperary, Ireland. It's an extracted record giving reference number 0531, so it must be taken from the Irish civil registration births. The FamilySearch entry gives details of the microfilm, so you could order it in to your nearest LDS Family History Centre to see what details it gives, e.g. mother's maiden name (fingers crossed!), or you could order a copy of the birth certificate from the Irish GRO. I think I've found the corresponding entry on the FamilySearch RecordSearch site, but it gives the district name as Cashel. Volume number is 8 and page number is 531 which is why I think it is the matching one. (I found a Rootsweb posting which says that the civil parish of Kilpatrick was in the Poor Law Union of Cashel.)

Or have you been down that road before?

The other idea I was thinking of is if you could get a death cert for Bridget, or for any of Patrick and Bridget's children, would an Australian death cert tell you the mother's maiden name (if the informant knew it)?

[Macbev]

Thanks for your suggestions Kite. I appreciate you lookng at the problem.

Johanna/Judith's marriage cert actually asks what her mother's maiden name was...it was filled in as 'Bridget RYAN'....which may mean Johanna misread the question...or equally likely, that Bridget was a RYAN as well.

I think I need to find a family group with most , if not all, of the siblings I knew about. I have looked at those LDS listings before and so far have not been able to find one that includes Grace, Judith/Johanna, Bridget and Matthew.

Ideally, I should locate descendants of the other siblings here, but scarcely know where to start; there are a lot of Ryans in WA. I think I might place an ad in the paper to see what I can flush out of the woodwork.

[kiterunner]

Yes, I was thinking her maiden name was probably Ryan too. Still, Grace's birth cert might confirm that.

[Macbev]

The other idea I was thinking of is if you could get a death cert for Bridget, or for any of Patrick and Bridget's children, would an Australian death cert tell you the mother's maiden name (if the informant knew it)?

I don't think the death cert would give the maiden name.....but the marriage cert should. I've just emailed the 'Can you Help?' column for our daily paper...I'll see if that brings out anyone....then I'll try ordering in the LDS film...might just get lucky. I'll wait a bit before I buy any certs...they are pretty expensive in this State.