View Full Version : A Stubborn Brick Wall
Hello - I'm new here, but I'm told you love a challenge, so I wonder if anyone can help me? This Brick Wall has defeated researchers for over ten years :-
My g/g/g/grandfather was Thomas Headland b 1786 Uxbridge Middx. He m
Christiana Atkinson & they moved to Islington around 1820.I have much info from then on, but have never been able to trace Thomas's parentage. He may have been Non Conformist - his children were baptised in that faith - but other
than that, I know nothing at all. I believe there may be a connection to the Headlands of Beds./Northants, but have never been able to establish this.
Various other family researchers from around the world have tried to solve this, & all have failed.
Within the last few weeks, one has come up with a couple of new Headlands previously thought unconnected. One - Robert b 1789 - had Thomas's eldest son
as witness to his wedding, so there would seem be a link there.
Can anyone rise to the challenge of this knotty problem?
Thanks in anticipation.
Vita.
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:05
Welcome, Vita! We do like a challenge, it's true. I hope someone can knock down your brick wall.
To start proceedings:
So this is Thomas and Christina in 1841:
1841 Census
HEADLAND, Thomas
ST PANCRAS, Middlesex
HO107 piece 685 folio 16/8 page 11
Chapel Street, St Pancras, Marylebone
They also have Emma, 15, and Alfred, 10, with them
Thomas is a painter.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 14:07
Where and when did Thomas and Christiana get married, please, Vita?
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:10
Thomas has died by 1851, according to the census.
Christiana is with Alfred, her son.
1851 Census
HEADLAND, Christiana
ISLINGTON, Middlesex
HO107 piece 1499 folio 482 page 1
1, Trinity Street, Islington, Finsbury
Alfred is a printer/compositer and Christiana a tailoress.
Vita, a question:
How do you know where Thomas Headland was born? The 1841 census doesn't give a place of birth - it just indicates he was "born in county" - i.e. Middlesex.
If he had been alive in 1851 we would have had more details.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 14:11
Also can I ask how you know that Thomas was born in Uxbridge, please? I can't find him on the later censuses; is he one of the deaths between in 1846 or 1847 in St Pancras district? Or am I just missing him?
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:14
So this is his burial?
Name: Thomas Headland
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1847
Burial Date: 15 Jun 1847
Age: 62
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1785
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Pancras Parish Chapel
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Register
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:15
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1559/31280_195041-00704/8886152?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3dLMAdeaths%26rank% 3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d0%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dangs-d%26gsfn%3dThomas%26gsln%3dHeadland%26dbOnly%3d_F0 005A5E%257c_F0005A5E_x%252c_F0005A49%257c_F0005A49 _x%252c_F000576D%257c_F000576D_x%26uidh%3dxt1%26pc at%3d34%26fh%3d0%26h%3d8886152%26recoff%3d6%2b7%26 ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
The image shows he was living in Chapel Street when he died, which was where Christiana and Alfred were in 1851.
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:17
His burial is also on Family Search.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 14:18
There is a burial 15 Jun 1847 St Pancras Parish Chapel Thomas Headland age 62, abode Chapel St.
(Edit - snap, Elizabeth! I'm just way behind you!)
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:20
I see from the non-conformist registers on Ancestry that Thomas and Christiana's children's births were recorded at Uxbridge.
ElizabethHerts
22-11-13, 14:20
There is a burial 15 Jun 1847 St Pancras Parish Chapel Thomas Headland age 62, abode Chapel St.
(Edit - snap, Elizabeth! I'm just way behind you!)
I probably started 10 minutes before you as you are normally faster than me!
I wonder if this is the family? It's from London Lives.
Saint Clement Danes
Middlesex and Westminster } to wit
Sarah Headland Aged about
45 years upon her Oath Saith That
about 23 years ago She intermarried with
Isaac Headland her present Husband
at the Parish Church of Saint George
Hanover Square by whom she has living
two Children Vizt. Thomas Aged fifteen
years and Robert Aged ten years
That her said Husband Rented and
lived in a house in Tottenham Place
in the Parish of Saint Pancras for four
years at the yearly rent of 28£ That
he hath left the said House about
twelve Months since which time he
hath not rented any house tenement
or Lodging of ten Pounds a year
paid Taxes or done any Act matter
or thing whereby he might have
gained a Subsequent Settlement
to the best of this Examinants Knowledge
Information or belief
Sworn this 14th
day of July 1800
before us} John Collick Benjm.
Well, hello everyone! I only went away to make a cup of tea, & here you all were!
Thank you all - I won't reply individually ,if its ok with you?
So, an amateur researcher told me Thomas was b Uxbridge,& I found that credible as his first three or four children were bap. at the Providence Independent Chapel there.
Christiana was b Holborn, central London, but I don't know when or where they married.
Their eldest child was b 1806, so given T
Sorry - finger slippage! Was going to add - given T & C's ages, I would say marriage was abt 1804/5.
I wondered about Sarah & Isaac - note they have a son Robert (family name?) and dates fit, too.
Vita.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 14:47
There is the baptism of a child of Isaac and Sarah Headland on FamilySearch: Ann 30 Aug 1778 at Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire, and the burial of another child of theirs, John, 5 Sep 1781 at Denham, Buckinghamshire. The dates would fit with the couple who married about 23 years before 1800, but it means Thomas could have been born anywhere!
kiterunner
22-11-13, 14:59
Findmypast has the baptism of a Thomas Headland at St Margaret, Westminster, in 1793. I haven't got a sub to view the image, but using the free search on the US site shows a year of birth of 1792 and that the name Sarah features somewhere in the record.
Edit - someone on ancestry has this Thomas in their tree with a father called William and a different year of death, so I don't think this is your Thomas.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 15:05
Another question for you, Vita - how do you know Christiana's maiden name was Atkinson, please?
Was just checking FMP...
Thomas Headland, son of William by Sarah, baptised 4 March 1793. Born dec 25.
Another question for you, Vita - how do you know Christiana's maiden name was Atkinson, please?
The Non Conformist record of T & C's children's bap. shows "Maternal grandfather, Thomas Atkinson."
I don't think it could have been 1792/3 Thomas, unless he was a late baptism, as it would make him only abt 13 at time of 1st child's birth.
Vita.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 15:17
Ancestry has the burial of a Sarah Headland 21 Jan 1821 at St John the Evangelist, Westminster, age 58, abode Market Street.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 15:34
FMP has the marriage of Isaac Hedland 1776 St George Hanover Square, but again, I haven't viewed the image.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 15:42
This could be the Robert who was 10 in 1800:
1851 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/NTTHO107_1838_1839-0282/16901270?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%252c%26rank%3d0%26gsf n%3drob*%26gsln%3dh*d*l*d%26sx%3d%26gs1co%3d1%252c All%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%26year%3d%26ye arend%3d%26sbo%3d0%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d0%26wp%3d4%25 3b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr%26prox%3d1%2 6ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d30%26bsk%3dCIA AIpwAX5tJ%26pgoff%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Kingsbury Street, Marlborough, Wiltshire
Robert Hedland Head Widr 62 Licensed Victualler Middx Uxbridge
Fredrica Do Daur U 29 Wilts Wroughton
Robert Do Son U 26 Do Marlboro
Mary Do Daur U 18 Do Do
Charles Do Son 15 Do Do
Sarah Do Daur 5 Do Do
William Dance Visitor U 55 Ag Lab Do Do
James Hancock Do U 29 Corporal Grenadier Guards Worcestersh Blockley
FMP has the marriage of Isaac Hedland 1776 St George Hanover Square, but again, I haven't viewed the image.
That would fit with what Sarah said in 1800. Don't want to seem fixated on
Uxbridge, but I've also seen an Isaac Headland, carpenter, of Uxbridge in a list of 1792 bankrupts.
I see same church as Robert is m in 1832 (When T's son is witness) though that
might mean nothing at all.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 15:45
Is the Robert born 1789 who you mentioned in your first post as having Thomas's son as a witness at his wedding, the same Robert who I posted in post #22 or a different one? Where and when did he (your Robert) marry, please?
Edit - I see you have already answered the second of these questions!
This could be the Robert who was 10 in 1800:
1851 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/NTTHO107_1838_1839-0282/16901270?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1851%252c%26rank%3d0%26gsf n%3drob*%26gsln%3dh*d*l*d%26sx%3d%26gs1co%3d1%252c All%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%26year%3d%26ye arend%3d%26sbo%3d0%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d0%26wp%3d4%25 3b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr%26prox%3d1%2 6ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d30%26bsk%3dCIA AIpwAX5tJ%26pgoff%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Kingsbury Street, Marlborough, Wiltshire
Robert Hedland Head Widr 62 Licensed Victualler Middx Uxbridge
Fredrica Do Daur U 29 Wilts Wroughton
Robert Do Son U 26 Do Marlboro
Mary Do Daur U 18 Do Do
Charles Do Son 15 Do Do
Sarah Do Daur 5 Do Do
William Dance Visitor U 55 Ag Lab Do Do
James Hancock Do U 29 Corporal Grenadier Guards Worcestersh Blockley
Yes, that's him - whoever he is!!!!
Thomas's middle name was Hughes - a poss clue?
London Lives has a John Headland, a member of the Carpenters' Company.
Is the Robert born 1789 who you mentioned in your first post as having Thomas's son as a witness at his wedding, the same Robert who I posted in post #22 or a different one? Where and when did he (your Robert) marry, please?
Edit - I see you have already answered the second of these questions!
Sorry - I'm a bit slow! Still finding my way around - slightly different than some
other sites - I must do better!
Elusive Robert m Susannah Swepson St Geo. Hanover Sq. 1832.
Witnesses - T's eldest s Thomas & wife Juliana.
Thomas's middle name was Hughes - a poss clue?,
Thomas Snr's eldest son, yes - but never been able to solve that one.
Christiana was definitely Atkinson. Hughes seems such an unusual middle name,
though,& none of other children were given it.
FMP has the marriage of Isaac Hedland 1776 St George Hanover Square, but again, I haven't viewed the image.
Isaac married Sarah Trenley.
Is the Robert born 1789 who you mentioned in your first post as having Thomas's son as a witness at his wedding, the same Robert who I posted in post #22 or a different one? Where and when did he (your Robert) marry, please?
Edit - I see you have already answered the second of these questions!
Sorry, didn't answer first question - don't know, I afraid. Never come across him
until a couple of weeks ago when I saw another researcher asking about him.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 16:03
It does look to be the same Robert whose marriage you mentioned, because his wife is Susanna on the 1841 census:
1841 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/WILHO107_1188_1189-0583/11348950?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Kingsbury Street, Marlborough, Wiltshire
Robert Headland 45 Publican Y
Susanna Do 35 Y
Frederecca Do 15 Y
Robert Do 15 Bankers Cl Y
Mary Do 7 Y
Charles Do 5 Y
Susanna Do 2 Y
Eliza Swepson 15 Y
Thomas Gibbons 25 Ind Y
kiterunner
22-11-13, 16:04
Presumably Robert was a widower when he married Susanna?
kiterunner
22-11-13, 16:13
It looks like Robert's first wife was called Hester as there is a baptism on FamilySearch for Robert jr, 3 Sep 1823 at St Mary, Marlborough, Wiltshire, parents Robert and Hester.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 16:32
Robert Headland otp and Esther Arnetta Carpenter otp married by banns 25 Nov 1819 St George Hanover Square, witnesses William Thomas and Mary Ann Davis.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 16:37
You probably have this already, but Christiana Atkinson was baptised 3 Mar 1788 at St Andrew Holborn, parents Thomas and Mary Ann. (From FamilySearch.)
I see from the non-conformist registers on Ancestry that Thomas and Christiana's children's births were recorded at Uxbridge.
There's also an unnamed daughter buried there on 15 Dec 1813.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 18:24
The baptism of Isaac and Sarah's son John is listed at St Margaret Uxbridge under the surname Edland (transcribed on ancestry as Ealand) - 30 Aug 1781. (Then he was buried at Denham, Bucks, just a few days later. Denham is only a few miles from Uxbridge.)
So anyone who was searching for H*dl*d or something like that, (like me), needs to repeat their searches without the H!
Hello Vita and welcome to GF.
Sorry. it's very early in the morning here and I'm going from one page to another so if this has already been put up, please ignore it...
Thomas Hughes Headland was born 19th Jan 1806 in Uxbridge.
He was the son of Thomas and Christina and grandson of Thomas Atkinson.
Henry William was born 1808
Mary Ann 1810
We then skip to Matilda Jane born in Clerkenwell in 1821, daughter of Thomas and Christiana. No grandfather given on that one.
Vita....have you the images of these? Sometimes the witnesses hold clues.
Edit......there s some mention of witnesses earlier??
Christiana is still have babies in 1831 so not 100% sure if she is the earlier Christina.
kiterunner
22-11-13, 18:45
She was baptised 1788 so would only be about 43 in 1831, Libby.
Sorry to leave you all talking to each other - domestic duty calls.
1813 death is almost certainly Mary Ann b 1810 - there's no mention of her after.
Sorry, I don't have any more witness details.
Christiana's last child was Alfred James Samuel b 1831.
Interesting about alt spellings of Headland - wonde rif that's been the sticking point?
Another day........ and I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I'm very grateful & mightily
impressed. At one point, I found it hard to keep up!
You've given me food for thought re alt.name spelling, & some more leads on Robert, who could just be the link that solves this long standing puzzle.
Please feel free to offer any other suggestions - I'm afraid I can't offer a prize to the one who cracks it,but I can assure you it would mean a great deal to me in memory of my late father.
Vita.
tenterfieldjulie
23-11-13, 09:38
They never cease to amaze me too Vita. I've been on GF for a few years now and can't believe how much they've helped me with my research .. and entertained me as well .. so if you ever need a tonic and have the time .. it is worth having a look .. Cheers from Aus. Julie
Thanks Julie - I'm really glad I was recommended. I've had input from other sites over the last couple of years, but I think this may top them all. Can't tell you how much I want to solve this one & I have a feeling this time.......
Bye from a cold & frosty UK.
Vita.
I spent some time this morning trying to find earlier ref to William Headland b Uxbridge about 1787 who is on the 1851 and 1861 census and died in 1865. He's a tailor and a pauper and lost his wife before 1851. Before I spend any more time I thought I'd check whether you had found out any more about him! (Don't think he is already mentioned here, but apologies if he is :o)
Thank Merry - I appreciate your time & trouble. No, the William you mention isn't one I've
researched. The only William I've been looking at recently is a William S. b 1806 who m
Mary Swepson & d Islington 1855.As the elusive Robert had also m a Swepson, I thought
this a bit of a coincidence & hoped it might lead somewhere, but I haven't been able to make a connection with my Headlands. I think there must be one, though.
I've spent some time today looking at alternative spellings as suggested here, but haven't made any definite progress there either.
Thanks again
Vita.
The William I found had a son called Charles Edward bap 26th Dec 1819 in Uxbridge. Their surname is recorded as Edling, but when Charles marries he is Headland.
William's wife was Harriet. There's a marriage between William Headland and Harriett Birch at St Pancras in 1811, so its likely there were other children if this is the right marriage. The witnesses were Richard Castell (or Costelo) and John Stanley (serial witness)
Doesn't know where I'm going with this yet!
I obviously never searched for Headland!! lol
Henry Bevekin Headland 4 Feb 1816 William Headland,
Harriett Headland Uxbridge St Margaret
Harriett Headland 17 Apr 1818 William Headland,
Harriett Headland Uxbridge St Margaret
Harriet Matilda Headland 24 Jun 1821 William Headland,
Harriet Headland Uxbridge St Margaret
Eliza Sarah Headland 20 Apr 1823 William Headland,
Harriet Headland Uxbridge St Margaret
Edward Headland 13 Feb 1825 William Headland,
Harriett Headland Uxbridge St Margaret
Henry Bevekin Headland
That should read Burkin.
Another child to fill the gap between the marriage and the other children:
Harriet Grace Headland Baptism 15 Nov 1812 St Margaret, Uxbridge, Middlesex Wm Headland, Harriet Headland
In post 30, Isaac Headland married Sarah Trenley in 1776, St George Hannover Square, so I thought I'd have a little look at Sarah.
It's not a v common name, but via FS, there is a baptism of Sarah Trenely in Denham, Bucks, on 15 Nov 1753, parents are named John and Sarah. This could be the Sarah that married Isaac Headland, as the age is about right...and Denham is only a couple of miles from Uxbridge.
In addition to Sarah, John and Sarah had the following children baptised in Denham:
Susannah, 23 April 1758
Ann, 5 July 1755
Hannah, 25 Dec 1756
Harriot, 2 Dec 1759
John, 5 June 1763
I've also found in the apprentice records on Ancestry, an Ann Trenley, a mantua maker, taking on an apprentice in 1787...in Uxbridge.
FreeREG has
Uxbridge, Windsor Street St Margaret baptisms 1538-1770
and
Family Search IGI has
Uxbridge (Independent And Presbyterian) C069031 1790-1836
and Uxbridge (Providence Independent) C069041 1789-1837
and nothing for the C of E.
So, whether C of E or not there's an annoying gap just when Thomas and William were born.
Have you ever been able to examine baptism records for the right time frame?
kiterunner
23-11-13, 18:25
I thought the images were on ancestry, Merry? I'm sure I looked through them yesterday, though not every page.
kiterunner
23-11-13, 18:38
Yes, the images are on ancestry - if you browse the London Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, it is borough Hillingdon, parish St Margaret, Uxbridge, then choose 1778-1811 to get the baptisms. But not on FamilySearch.
No doubt I had something still typed in the Keywords box on Ancestry when I looked for the earlier records. I keep doing that since I forced myself to abandon the Old Search because I can't see the Keywords box on my laptop without scrolling down every time!
I guess we need to know when those independent churches opened and if it was before the IGI start date whether they are also on Ancestry or nowhere!!
I have come across some of these names on Ancestry during my research, but have never
made a connection with my Headlands. Its beginning to look as if Uxbridge was full of them!
I came across another family from there - father William Isaac James - living in Chapel St at the same time as mine, but couldn't make a connection there either. Surely no coincidence, though?
Thanks again.
Vita.
I know the baptism for Wm Isaac James says his parents are William and Mary but I do wonder if they could be William and Harriet who had been married for about 8¾ months by the baptism date!
Forgetting William for a minute and going back to Isaac and Sarah....I just want to put together what we have so far......
Isaac Headland m Sarah Trenley 1776 St Geo Hanover Square
(I just found) Dau Sarah (spelled Edling) bap 27 Aug 1777 St Mary, Hayes
Dau Ann bap 30 Aug 1778 at Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire
Son John (spelled Edland) bap 30 Aug 1781 St Margaret Uxbridge
Son John bur 5 Sep 1781 at Denham, Buckinghamshire
Isaac Headland, carpenter, of Uxbridge in a list of 1792 bankrupts
1800 sons Thomas and Robert living
Looks like there's probably lots more to find!
Forgetting William for a minute and going back to Isaac and Sarah....I just want to put together what we have so far......
Isaac Headland m Sarah Trenley 1776 St Geo Hanover Square
(I just found) Dau Sarah (spelled Edling) bap 27 Aug 1777 St Mary, Hayes
Dau Ann bap 30 Aug 1778 at Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire
Son John (spelled Edland) bap 30 Aug 1781 St Margaret Uxbridge
Son John bur 5 Sep 1781 at Denham, Buckinghamshire
Isaac Headland, carpenter, of Uxbridge in a list of 1792 bankrupts
1800 sons Thomas and Robert living
Looks like there's probably lots more to find!
It does look like Isaac the bankrupt is the same Isaac married to Sarah for
23 years in 1800, doesn't it?
Could we be about to solve this one? Quite excited at the thought!
Thanks again.
Vita.
Trouble is, we also have Wm b Uxbridge who presumably wasn't a child of Isaac and Sarah as he doesn't get a mention in 1800. If he had different parents then there might be two children called Thomas (one son of Isaac and Sarah and the other sibling of William). Still I'd say Isaac and Sarah are front runners at the moment!
I know we said we wouldn't mention William, but as you have done so, I'll just add that I
contacted a descendant of William Isaac James earlier this year as I did think I was on to
something with the families all together in Chapel St & all coming from Uxbridge, but we
failed to make a link & he couldn't help me any further. His Wm was a tailor, b 1800, whose
son Robert emigrated to Australia. I agree Isaac & Sarah seem the frontrunners - just hope
we can make it concrete.
Many thanks
Vita
But William Isaac James was baptised 13 Oct 1811, so his father can't have been born in 1800. The William who was married to Harriet Birch was a tailor, but he was born in the 1780s, but Wm Isaac James mother is recorded as Mary (which I thought might be a mistake!)
It would have been tidy if William b abt 1787 had been a brother of your Thomas and they had both been children of Isaac and Sarah, but as Isaac and Sarah only mention two living sons in 1800 I don't see how that can be correct. Their two living sons were said to be Thomas and Robert. I've got a little confused about their Robert - do we have further evidence of his existence?
Sorry Merry - I was on my first coffee & going from memory re WIJ's b date - but he did end up in Chapel St with others.
I'm a bit confused re Robert, too!
The Robert who married Susannah Swepson (2nd wife) in 1832 MAY be Robert, s of Isaac &
Sarah, & brother of Thomas. The fact that Thomas Jnr was witness to this wedding means he surely must be a family member (Thomas Jnr's uncle?) but this has only come to light in
the last couple of weeks, so its all a bit new to me.
kiterunner
24-11-13, 08:33
Yes, I think the Robert who married Susanna is the Robert who was 10 in 1800. In fact, I thought he more or less proved that your Thomas was the son of Isaac and Sarah.
Yes, I think the Robert who married Susanna is the Robert who was 10 in 1800. In fact, I thought he more or less proved that your Thomas was the son of Isaac and Sarah.
Well, that's what I thought, though I know one should never jump to conclusions
over these things.
Vita.
Yes, I think the Robert who married Susanna is the Robert who was 10 in 1800. In fact, I thought he more or less proved that your Thomas was the son of Isaac and Sarah.
I would go with 'more or less' too, but thanks to William the tailor being from Uxbridge and appearing to be the son of someone other than Isaac and Sarah, then there's always the chance that Thomas the marriage witness wasn't the nephew of the bridegroom Robert, but a cousin of some sort. (This happened in my Smith tree when I made the wrong assumption about a marriage witness, causing about five years of confusion!! lol)
I think 95% likely Thomas, son of Isaac is "the one" and 5% he isn't! lol
As a relatively inexperienced researcher, can I ask if this is as close as we are likely to get?
That's not to take anything at all away from all your input - so grateful for all of it - but do
the previous posts re records mean that Thomas's b is unlikely to be recorded anywhere?
I think you need to investigate what alternative churches there might have been in Uxbridge at the time as there don't seem to be any entries for them at the C of E church. However, as Kate pointed out, Isaac and Sarah seem to have children born and buried in several different locations, so perhaps their Thomas was born somewhere other than Uxbridge. At least they have unusual names - you would be giving up if they had commonplaces ones!!!
I wish we could find a bap for William so we knew who his parents were.
tenterfieldjulie
24-11-13, 10:24
Vita part of the joy/frustration of research is that often information doesn't fall easily into your lap. You have to persevere and sometimes it takes a long time to find a record, other times with help from experienced researchers you will find it in unusual places .
If a baptism occurred a record would have been made, but whether it survived is another thing. It could be extremely hard to read, if it did survive and can be mistranscribed, also if the parents couldn't read or write, their names could be written in many ways, depending on how the person thought it was spelt who recorded it. Don't give up though, try tracing another member of the family and sometimes you find a connection. Good luck. Julie
Thanks Merry - I've always gone with the likelihood of Non Conformism, as the other
researchers had failed to find them in church records & Thomas's children Thomas,
Mary Ann,& Henry William(my g/g/grandfather)were all bap at Uxbridge Prov. Ind. Chapel.
After moving to London, the others were bap at Spa Fields Lady Huntingdon's, but as
someone pointed out to me, just because T may have been N/C, it doesn't mean his father was.
The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined towards Thomas & Robert, sons of Isaac
& Sarah, being mine. I can't imagine there being two Thomas Headlands b within a year of
each other with a close relation named Robert & living in Middlesex, but......even I as type
this, I can see it could be possible!
Vita.
Vita part of the joy/frustration of research is that often information doesn't fall easily into your lap. You have to persevere and sometimes it takes a long time to find a record, other times with help from experienced researchers you will find it in unusual places .
If a baptism occurred a record would have been made, but whether it survived is another thing. It could be extremely hard to read, if it did survive and can be mistranscribed, also if the parents couldn't read or write, their names could be written in many ways, depending on how the person thought it was spelt who recorded it. Don't give up though, try tracing another member of the family and sometimes you find a connection. Good luck. Julie
Thanks Julie, that's kind - trouble is, I never knew anyone of my father's family.
He was an only child,& when I started this, all I knew was the name of his
parents. I've been amazed at what I've found (I'll tell you about it sometime!)
but when I saw everyone had been stuck at Thomas b 1786, I set out to crack
it.
I've made contact with a few distant relatives, but they're all in the same boat as I am. Rest assured,I'll never give up! Just wished I'd started this
earlier, though - getting to old to wait around wondering!
Vita.
tenterfieldjulie
24-11-13, 10:53
I could imagine Vita how special it must be for you to find about your close family after not knowing. It isn't just facts and figures though. Learning about the times they lived and what was happening in the world at the time puts much more meat on the bones. You are so fortunate that you have found distant relatives who are interested so many close ones aren't!!.
I was looking for my late husband's grand mother's siblings in Ireland to find that most were in Australia, including one in the village where his grandmother lived and his mother went to school with her 1st cousins ... this after 30 years of looking lol .. Take care. Julie
I could imagine Vita how special it must be for you to find about your close family after not knowing. It isn't just facts and figures though. Learning about the times they lived and what was happening in the world at the time puts much more meat on the bones. You are so fortunate that you have found distant relatives who are interested so many close ones aren't!!.
I was looking for my late husband's grand mother's siblings in Ireland to find that most were in Australia, including one in the village where his grandmother lived and his mother went to school with her 1st cousins ... this after 30 years of looking lol .. Take care. Julie
Oh No - I haven't got thirty years!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, though - I am very lucky to have found a distant cousin(same degree
of descent as me) who shares my interest. We've become good friends & have
actually met up.
Couldn't agree more about life & times - as you will see when I reveal all!
Thanks again - you take care, too.
Bye for now.
Vita.
kiterunner
24-11-13, 17:49
I wonder whether there are any other mentions of Sarah Headland and her family in the poor law records, apart from that St Clement Danes settlement exam? I think that document is saying that the Headlands' parish of settlement was St Pancras, so maybe they appear in the St Pancras poor law records too.
I'm lost in admiration at resourcefulness - are those records online?
Vita.
Here is the image for Sarah's pauper settlement. Hope the link works!
http://hri.shef.ac.uk/san/pl/CD/EP/WCCDEP35823/WCCDEP358230142.jpg
Here is the image for Sarah's pauper settlement. Hope the link works!
http://hri.shef.ac.uk/san/pl/CD/EP/WCCDEP35823/WCCDEP358230142.jpg
Thanks Shona - it did! I had actually seen that under "London Lives," but appreciate your trouble. In fact, that's what put me on to Sarah & Isaac in the
first place.All I need now is "definite" proof!
Vita.
Works for me, Shona!
Good - thought it best we had the orig image in case there were errors in the transcript.
Vita or Shona, did you look at the Trenley/Headland marriage entry on FMP? (my sub's run out!) I just wondered if there were any clues - witnesses or whatever....
The witnesses are John Trenley and Ann Trenley. Both Isaac and Sarah signed their names.
Oh - somewhere I posted what I thought might be Sarah's baptism - I'm sure there was a brother named John and a sister named Ann (who may have become a mantua maker in Uxbridge).
Here's info on the Trenley family - I've copied it so that info is closer to the post about the witnesses to the Trenley/Headland marriage.
Isaac Headland married Sarah Trenley in 1776, St George Hannover Square, so I thought I'd have a little look at Sarah.
It's not a v common name, but via FS, there is a baptism of Sarah Trenely in Denham, Bucks, on 15 Nov 1753, parents are named John and Sarah. This could be the Sarah that married Isaac Headland, as the age is about right...and Denham is only a couple of miles from Uxbridge.
In addition to Sarah, John and Sarah had the following children baptised in Denham:
Susannah, 23 April 1758
Ann, 5 July 1755
Hannah, 25 Dec 1756
Harriot, 2 Dec 1759
John, 5 June 1763
I've also found in the apprentice records on Ancestry, an Ann Trenley, a mantua maker, taking on an apprentice in 1787...in Uxbridge.
The witnesses are John Trenley and Ann Trenley. Both Isaac and Sarah signed their names.
Sarah also signed her Pauper Settlement statement.
Can we find out more about the Providence Chapel in Uxbridge? What type of non-conformity are we dealing with? Merry must know this, but I'm sure I read that Quakers were keen on teaching girls to read and write.
Thanks, everyone for what you've done - I did make some notes on Prov. Ind. Chapel & will
dig them out tomorrow.
I've been having a look at the Trenleys of Denham - seems they were in the area from at
least 1700. John's father may have been Edward Trenley, yeoman.
Enough already - I'm off to bed! Goodnight all.
Vita.
kiterunner
24-11-13, 21:36
I'm lost in admiration at resourcefulness - are those records online?
Vita.
Yes, the St Pancras poor law records are online on ancestry but are not name-indexed so the only way to search them is to browse through. I did have a quick look earlier and didn't find anything.
Providence Independent Chapel appears to have been a Presbyterian offshoot & from 1777
attracted worshipers from St. Margaret's - where one of Isaac & Sarah's children was baptised.
Vita.
So it's possible there are other records from 1777 until the dates below that need investigating?
Family Search IGI has
Uxbridge (Independent And Presbyterian) C069031 1790-1836
and Uxbridge (Providence Independent) C069041 1789-1837
Unless the chapel didn't get round to recording anything (or didn't manage to keep the records) until 1789/90 :rolleyes:
That 1789 date is a real pain isn't it? Just a few years too late. Would that probably be why
I've not been able to trace Thomas & Christiana's marriage either?
Vita.
No, because the non-conformist church wouldn't have been allowed to conduct weddings until 1837, so you would be looking to the C of E for the wedding.
Thanks, I do remember now seeing something about that a while ago, & I think something also about ceremonies conducted in secret & then done officially by C of E?
So, I wonder why nobody's found T & C's marriage? Bit of a Mystery Man, my Thomas.
I've had a quick look at Uxbridge records, & don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but
I've read that records aren't available until 1789, & then another listing of marriages 1538+, that fails to bring up any relevant results.
So, I wonder why nobody's found T & C's marriage? Bit of a Mystery Man, my Thomas.
Most likely because it took place somewhere unexpected and the entry is either not online or not in the normal databases!
I've had a quick look at Uxbridge records, & don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but
I've read that records aren't available until 1789, & then another listing of marriages 1538+, that fails to bring up any relevant results.
The 1789+ records are for the non-con church aren't they?
The 1538+ records will be for the C of E parish church (St Margaret's?)
kiterunner
25-11-13, 14:26
Ancestry also has the Uxbridge Providence Chapel independent records from 1789 onwards, with images, in the England & Wales Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers:
Uxbridge Providence (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2972/40612_B0148428-00005/438205?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3d%26gsln%3d%26sx% 3d%26f7%3d%26f8%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d1785%26rs _81004011__date%3d5%26F49__n%3d%26f10%3duxbridge%2 6f11%3d%26F12%3d%26f16%3d%26f17%3d%26rg_81004251__ date%3d%26rs_81004251__date%3d0%26f64%3d%26F19%3d% 26f20%3d%26f21%3d%26f58%3d%26f59%3d%26f60%3d%26f61 %3d%26f53%3d%26f54%3d%26f50%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d 1%26db%3duknonconformistvitals%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si %3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3derror%26gst%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=40612_B0148 428-00000)
and Uxbridge Independent and Presbyterian from 1790:
Uxbridge Independent and Presbyterian (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2972/40612_B0148428-00005/438205?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3d%26gsln%3d%26sx% 3d%26f7%3d%26f8%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d1785%26rs _81004011__date%3d5%26F49__n%3d%26f10%3duxbridge%2 6f11%3d%26F12%3d%26f16%3d%26f17%3d%26rg_81004251__ date%3d%26rs_81004251__date%3d0%26f64%3d%26F19%3d% 26f20%3d%26f21%3d%26f58%3d%26f59%3d%26f60%3d%26f61 %3d%26f53%3d%26f54%3d%26f50%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d 1%26db%3duknonconformistvitals%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si %3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3derror%26gst%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=40612_B0149 631-00000)
The books seem to start at the dates given. Sometimes the records of independent churches were held by a travelling minister who kept the records of all the churches that he visited, and I think some of these records were lost.
But there is Sarah's sworn testimony at the settlement examination in 1800 that she and Isaac had two living children, Thomas 15 and Robert 10, so we know that they had those two children even though we haven't found birth or baptism records.
I was in a similar situation with one of my ancestors (Thomas Salter) for years, though I didn't have anything like that settlement examination - the contents of two wills suggested very strongly who his parents were, so although I was satisfied I had the right parents for him, it would take ages to explain it to anyone else. His younger siblings were listed in the non-conformist records so I thought his baptism record was probably a lost non-conformist record, then one day he turned up in the C of E baptisms when FamilySearch finally transcribed the right parish!
Thanks Merry & Kiterunner - seems like I was looking in the right places.
Re T & C's marriage - I suppose I've been a bit spoiled, with other family marriages being so readily available & online.
I've got a Salter mystery in my tree too! I'll think about tackling that when I go as far as I
can with Thomas.
Vita.
Even if you had a baptism for a Thomas, son of Isaac and Sarah at about the right date, you probably couldn't be any more certain it was for you Thomas because you still have William floating about with no baptism and the possibility of him having siblings without baptisms too! I can't think why Sarah couldn't have just said she had three living sons, Thomas, Robert and William and then everything would seem much better!! lol
Having said that, I still think it's most likely the Thomas mentioned by Sarah is your Thomas.....but there's always going to be a niggling doubt! (Reminds me of my Tyler tree where cousin families lived next door to each other and a daughter from one house married her first cousin, a son from the other house - or so I though. About ten years later when the 1851 census was released I learned that the bride was from one of the houses but the groom was her second cousin who had the same name as her first cousin but lived about 200 miles away! lol)
*chucks big stone into pond*
Edward Headland - bp 13 Feb 1825, son of the mysterious William Headland and Harriet Birch - had a son named Edwin Trunley Headland who was baptised in Southampton in 1850.
Trunley could be a variant of Trenley.
Thomas and Christiana Atkinson had a daughter named Amelia Julia who went on to marry an Edward Bland Atkinson in Dunedin in New Zealand in 1853.
I'm trying to think of ways that Sarah could have forgotten she had a son called William when she made her declaration in 1800!!
*chucks big stone into pond*
Edward Headland - bp 13 Feb 1825, son of the mysterious William Headland and Harriet Birch - had a son named Edwin Trunley Headland who was baptised in Southampton in 1850.
Trunley could be a variant of Trenley.
Oh no - not a possible link to the Southampton Headlands! I had seen them but
thought they were a separate family.
Yes, Amelia Julia emigrated along with another sister & a brother who went about 5 years later - they were among the "Early Settlers."
Been as we're throwing other Headlands into the mix, my father always believed
we were connected to the Headlands of Tonbridge, Kent. They have the poet
Stephen Spender on their tree, as well as notable Victorian clerics, academics
& an eminent surgeon, so I personally doubted it. I have a rough tree of
theirs drawn up by the friend who did some groundwork for me, but we
couldn't find a link.
Personally, I believe ours are the Headlands from Beds/Northants, some of
them moving into Middlesex & central London.
Interesting re Trunley/Trenley, though.........
Even if you had a baptism for a Thomas, son of Isaac and Sarah at about the right date, you probably couldn't be any more certain it was for you Thomas because you still have William floating about with no baptism and the possibility of him having siblings without baptisms too! I can't think why Sarah couldn't have just said she had three living sons, Thomas, Robert and William and then everything would seem much better!! lol
Having said that, I still think it's most likely the Thomas mentioned by Sarah is your Thomas.....but there's always going to be a niggling doubt! (Reminds me of my Tyler tree where cousin families lived next door to each other and a daughter from one house married her first cousin, a son from the other house - or so I though. About ten years later when the 1851 census was released I learned that the bride was from one of the houses but the groom was her second cousin who had the same name as her first cousin but lived about 200 miles away! lol)
Meant to put this with my other reply - but I can live with a niggling doubt if
I have to. I'm just so grateful for everyone's input - especially as I'd been
looking at Sarah & Isaac for some time, but without the confidence to think
I might be right. It was good to have my suspicions(almost) confirmed)& for
someone - Shona, I think - to mention them before I did.
Re Sarah's 1800 declaration - I know son John had died, but she must have lost her daughters too.
I'm trying to think of ways that Sarah could have forgotten she had a son called William when she made her declaration in 1800!!
Sorry that I've lost track of earlier posts, but is it possible that William was older than the others and so earning his own living at this stage? Or that he had been adopted by a family member, so the parish would not have to fork out for him?
I don't know Phoenix. Doesn't seem very likely.....
Sarah's declaration in 1800 said: She intermarried with Isaac Headland her present Husband at the Parish Church of Saint George Hanover Square by whom she has living two Children Vizt. Thomas Aged fifteen
years and Robert Aged ten years.
William was b abt 1787 according to the 1851 census.
Could he have been already apprenticed? He would then be gaining a settlement in his own right.
Why is Sarah providing this information, not Isaac?
True. He was a tailor so may well have been apprenticed. I suppose I'm looking on it with modern eyes - I can't imagine saying I only have one child when I have two without qualifying that information somehow.
I also found it odd that Sarah was signing the declaration yet it didn't sound as if Isaac was dead!!!!
Could he have done a runner?
Just looked at the UK, Land Tax Redemption, 1798 for Isaac Headland who is listed under Tottenham Place St Pancras. He has three entries on the same page each for 7s. The middle one describes him as "Inm" (I think).....Inmate? or something else? What would that mean in this instance?
tenterfieldjulie
26-11-13, 08:09
I would think inmate would be for workhouse, mental hospital or gaol ..
Maybe he was not of sound mind and that was why he didn't sign the declaration?
It sounds as if he was living elsewhere:
....he hath left the said House [ie in Tottenham Place] about twelve Months since which time he hath not rented any house tenement or Lodging of ten Pounds a year paid Taxes or done any Act matter or thing whereby he might have gained a Subsequent Settlement to the best of this Examinants Knowledge Information or belief
Well done finding Isaac, Merry.
When I first read the settlement statement, I thought it sounded as if Isaac had left Sarah.
kiterunner
26-11-13, 08:37
Some of the entries in the Land Tax Redemption have "inmas" after them, so I don't think it means the named person was an inmate in an institution. I wonder if it means he had sub-tenants.
kiterunner
26-11-13, 08:37
When I first read the settlement statement, I thought it sounded as if Isaac had left Sarah.
Yes, I think so.
kiterunner
26-11-13, 08:50
Baptism 17 May 1799 at St Margaret, Uxbridge: William Edlyn, son of John and Alice.
Isaac Headland's bankruptcy from the London Gazette.
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/13485/pages/947/page.pdf
kiterunner
26-11-13, 08:56
Thomas, son of John and Alice Edlin, was buried 16 Jun 1799 at Uxbridge.
Oh, their son William was buried 17 Nov 1799. Hmm, back to the drawing board...
The William who was a tailor should have been born roughly 1787, going form the 1851 census, which is about the same time as vita's Thomas.
Well ladies,(would I be right there) you are amazing. I can't tell you how impressed I am.
Things are looking a lot different than they did a week ago.
I've always wondered why Sarah was making the declaration & not Isaac, but presumed it
was because he had b****** off, but on reading it again a couple of weeks ago, thought it
might mean he just hadn't been working & so hadn't paid taxes or been able to support his
family. Wouldn't it be a little odd for her to omit saying what his circumstances were if he
was still around but incarceratde? What was a chapman?
tenterfieldjulie
26-11-13, 10:23
b... good aren't they lol Cheers everyone. Julie
What was a chapman?
An itinerant pedlar.
b... good aren't they lol Cheers everyone. Julie
G'day,Julie - bit of an understatement understatement there,!
Vita.
An itinerant pedlar.
"Itinerant pedlar, eh? Spender connection looking more & more unlikely!
Explains why children were b all over the place, though.
Vita.
But before he was bankrupt he was a carpenter, wasn't he?
That's what it says,yes - carpenter, general dealer & chapman of Uxbridge.
Doing some research on the terms "inm" & "inmas" - nothing on Google, so fishing around.
Vita.
I've got a couple of chapmen/hawkers/travelling dealers in my tree...pesky blighters that they are. Most of them had some sort of trade - smiths, for example. They travelled in the summer, pitching their tents at the edge of villages. The men would then set about repairing farm implements, etc, while the women did the hawking of bits and pieces - tea, sugar, tobacco, thread, ribbons, pins and needles.
However, Isaac and Sarah signed their names when they married. Sarah also signed the settlement statement, which is at odds with most of the travellers in my tree who were illiterate.
Mmm - but he does say quite clearly he was a chapman. Perhaps they fell on hard times & he resorted to including that in his CV. Hard times is something of a family trait with my
Headlands; two of Thomas's sons were imprisoned for debt - one, g/g/grandfather Henry
William, twice. His son Henry William Jnr took over the family business in 1859 & within a
couple of years was ruined, with "not 5/- worth of furniture" in his house, & also served a
prison sentence.
tenterfieldjulie
26-11-13, 22:17
I think living by your wits if you were working class was the norm unless you had gentry (for want of better word) who had a social conscience. Until education became available to everyone and children weren't forced to work, you survived how you could. In Australia in the early days many of the squatters didn't want their workers to own land in case the squatters/gentry lost their workers. My cousin has studied the NSW Robertson Land Act and he says that the idea was that the workers could own enough land to feed themselves and their large families, but not enough so that the station owners lost their workers. My ancestors invented aristocratic lineage so that their children could have private tutors .. if their real background had been revealed they would certainly not have had that.
Hi Julie - I found it heart breaking to see the report of my g/grandfather's ruin, especially as
he was described at sentence as "feeling his position most acutely." It also says it was through his own neglect - so curious as to what form that might have taken, but don't
suppose I'll ever find out.
Vita.
Thanks everyone for making Vita so welcome, I recommended her after she contacted the Bedfordshire Guestbook.
I thought with such a high brick wall that it could do with several people to try and knock it down, I wasn't doing very well on my own. You've really come up trumps.
In earlier posts you mention the occupation of chapman, did you know that John Bunyan's father was a chapman. Though he was an itinerant pedlar so to speak, he must've done all right because he left a will of which I have a copy.
Vita in post 97 you mention the surname Salter, my friends are called that, they were on the first programme of Surprise Surprise, if you remember it anyone, they were the ones whose wedding video had been found by this man's father in a junk shop.
Yes, thanks again everyone.
Do you think everyone may have a Salter somewhere on the tree, Mary? Thats three of us
in this relatively small sample! Do you think these industrious ladies would be ready to take
on my Salter puzzle anytime soon? I wouldn't want to take advantage of their generosity,
but............. there again, others have tried & failed.
Vita.
Post away vita! (make a new thread though!)
I have a few Salters on my tree, but mostly 20thC and then one b 1827!
I've done my friend's Freeman and Tuttlebee research but not her Salter line.
Post away vita! (make a new thread though!)
I have a few Salters on my tree, but mostly 20thC and then one b 1827!
Thanks so much Merry - I'll get my notes together & post over the weekend.
Not Salters from Islington/Clerkenwell early 1800s by any chance?
Mary - love the name " Tuttlebee" - very Dickensian!
Vita.
Not Salters from Islington/Clerkenwell early 1800s by any chance?
Sadly not :(. The 1827 one is Priscilla from Westleton, Suffolk and the others are from Southampton.
Sadly not :(. The 1827 one is Priscilla from Westleton, Suffolk and the others are from Southampton.
I thought it would be too much of a coincidence. I'll post when I've got all my
facts together. Looks like it may be a story of illicit relationships & general
Victorian naughtiness.
Vita.
Oooh, I like those, vita!
tenterfieldjulie
30-11-13, 19:49
Do not mention Salter to me .. grrh .. I have two marriages:confused::confused::mad: of John Ware blacksmith in the same month (Nov) same year (1750) at Chesham .. one to an Ann Wheeler and one to an Ann Salter .. I would like to say I have Salters in the family but I don't know ... why couldn't one have had a name like Sophia or Amelia .. sobs;( Julie
Oooh, I like those, vita!
Don't we all? Hope you're not disappointed Merry!
Hi Julie - those pesky Salters, eh?
Goodnight all,
Vita.
The William I found had a son called Charles Edward bap 26th Dec 1819 in Uxbridge. Their surname is recorded as Edling, but when Charles marries he is Headland.
William's wife was Harriet. There's a marriage between William Headland and Harriett Birch at St Pancras in 1811, so its likely there were other children if this is the right marriage. The witnesses were Richard Castell (or Costelo) and John Stanley (serial witness)
Doesn't know where I'm going with this yet!
I have come across some of these names on Ancestry during my research, but have never
made a connection with my Headlands. Its beginning to look as if Uxbridge was full of them!
I came across another family from there - father William Isaac James - living in Chapel St at the same time as mine, but couldn't make a connection there either. Surely no coincidence, though?
Thanks again.
Vita.
I think there has to be a connection as Mary Ann's baptism certificate names her sponsors as M. A Atkinson and Harriet Birch
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195174-00556/2526481?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dwilliam%26gsfn_x%3 dNN%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26msgdp%3d1 0%26mssng0%3dmaria%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26MSAV%3d1 %26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3dBMD_MARRIAGE%26h%3d2526481% 26recoff%3d8%2b11%2b29%26db%3dLMAmarriages%26indiv %3d1%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
According to the 1851 census both William I J Headland and his wife Maria Moore were born Uxbridge.
Just got in after a day out up the coast. I was going to say "yes please" re sponsors
names & now I've seen this very interesting. Christiana's mother was Mary Ann Atkinson
so that's probably the other sponsor.
And here's that name TRENLEY, again! :rolleyes::eek:
Feb 28 1788, Harriet Birch dau of James and Harriet of Hillingdon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saint Giles Cripplegate 28 Apr 1787
James Birch and Harriott [sic] TRENLEY
And here's that name TRENLEY, again! :rolleyes::eek:
Feb 28 1788, Harriet Birch dau of James and Harriet of Hillingdon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saint Giles Cripplegate 28 Apr 1787
James Birch and Harriott [sic] TRENLEY
Ooooh, you & Merry are so good! Can't tell you how much it would mean to me
if we get to the bottom of this.
Don't know if its me feeling a bit tired after my day out, but I'm getting a bit
confused now. So are we saying William b 1787 who married Harriet Birch is
probably the brother of my Thomas b 1786 who now looks even more likely
to be son of Isaac who did a runner around 1800 & Sarah, nee Trenley?
So are we saying William b 1787 who married Harriet Birch is
probably the brother of my Thomas b 1786 who now looks even more likely
to be son of Isaac who did a runner around 1800 & Sarah, nee Trenley?
Can't be certain of that, Vita, but the 'players' in this search do seem to all relate somehow. My hesitancy is the same as has already been mentioned: Sarah, wife of Isaac mentioned only two sons.
Can't be certain of that, Vita, but the 'players' in this search do seem to all relate somehow. My hesitancy is the same as has already been mentioned: Sarah, wife of Isaac mentioned only two sons.
I know - big problem. But perhaps omitted for reasons suggested?
Re M A Atkinson - could also have been Christiana's sister Maria Ann.
Bailing out to tend to OH now but will return tomorrow.
lol I'm just wondering if I'm supposed to know the significance of the name Trenley!
I feel like I'm reading a few excerpts from a novel and having to guess the parts in between!
lol I'm just wondering if I'm supposed to know the significance of the name Trenley!
I feel like I'm reading a few excerpts from a novel and having to guess the parts in between!
Stop it! You're making me feel bad! Trenley was the maiden name of Sarah,
wife of Isaac Headland identified in "A Stubborn Brick Wall" as most likely
parents of Thomas b 1786.
And here's that name TRENLEY, again! :rolleyes::eek:
Feb 28 1788, Harriet Birch dau of James and Harriet of Hillingdon.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Saint Giles Cripplegate 28 Apr 1787
James Birch and Harriott [sic] TRENLEY
Would I be right in saying that if William does turn out to be son of Isaac &
Sarah, he married his cousin Harriet Birch, daughter of Sarah's sister Harriot?
Now I really MUST tend to OH or he'll be accusing me of neglect!
Would I be right in saying that if William does turn out to be son of Isaac &
Sarah, he married his cousin Harriet Birch, daughter of Sarah's sister Harriot?
Now I really MUST tend to OH or he'll be accusing me of neglect!
Sounds right if you know Sarah had a sister Harriet, but I've not delved further into the Trenleys'. I don't imagine it's a common name, certainly I've not heard it before.
William Hill married Mary Trenley, 15 Apr 1797, St Botolph Aldgate
Witnesses Isaac and Ann HEADLAND
tenterfieldjulie
13-06-15, 06:05
Interesting!! .. I can hear a brick wall starting to crack .. hopefully ..
William Hill married Mary Trenley, 15 Apr 1797, St Botolph Aldgate
Witnesses Isaac and Ann HEADLAND
Please tell me that doesn't necessarily indicate Isaac & Ann were a couple?
I've just got used to the idea that Isaac & Sarah, nee Trenley are now even
stronger contenders for 4xg grandparents.
Yes, Sarah did have a sister Harriot.
Julie - resounding cracks, I hope.
No, not necessarily a couple. I was lazy, they were actually recorded as: Isaac Headland and Ann Headland. Could be any relationship.
It is interesting though how Trenleys and Headlands turn up together. The Trenleys go back to Denham which is close to Uxbridge.
Richard Castell married Ann Headland by licence, I wonder if it's the same Ann Headland mentioned at #151
Marylebone, 20 Jan 1808, Richard Castell, widower of St George Hanover Square and Ann Headland, spinster of this parish, both signed. Witnesses Owen Williams and Ann Cox.
Merry mentioned a Richard Castell earlier in the thread, if memory serves me correct he was the witness at a marriage.
That's right - Richard Castell was witness to the marriage of William Headland & Harriet
Birch in 1811.
Breathes sigh of relief re Isaac & Sarah - at least they're still strong candidates.
Checking children of Isaac & Sarah, I see they had a daughter Ann, bap 1778.Wonder if
she's the one who married Richard Castell?
And I've just found a marriage mention on ancestry for an Ann Trenley M Headland 1868
Southampton. Henry Bevekin (Burkin? Berkin?) Headland b 1816, son of William
Headland, tailor, & Harriet Birch, pops up in Southampton.
And I've just found a marriage mention on ancestry for an Ann Trenley M Headland 1868
Southampton. Henry Bevekin (Burkin? Berkin?) Headland b 1816, son of William
Headland, tailor, & Harriet Birch, pops up in Southampton.
So more Headland/Trenley's. The two families must have been close friends and maintained a strong friendship for more than one generation.
I think I found some Headland's last night who had moved from the London district to Hants. Think one was Edward who is also possibly a son of William.
I think Ann TM Headland married William Reeves. She isn't Henry B Headland's daughter though. More likely his sister, or some other relation. In 1871 she is Ann reeves aged 49 b Middlesex Uxbridge.
I haven't proved this is the one yet. Mainly going on place of birth, so could be a coincidence. Have not found bap or death.
Hmmm, that might be wrong as she isn't showing up as a Headland on previous censuses.
The majority of Headland's with the given name Isaac were born in Lincolnshire where there's a few generations of Isaac Headlands. Perhaps the Isaac we are seeking came from Lincs originally.
This is the Edward in Southampton, born Uxbridge. Ancestry have him indexed HARTLAND, though it's clearly HEADLAND. He's the Edward Trenley Headland mentioned earlier (I think)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/HAMHO107_1669_1669-0978/5956406?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn_x%3dNN%26g sln_x%3dNP_NN%26_F0005C4F%3d1669%26_F0005E11%3d630 %26_F0005906%3d11%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3 d35%26fh%3d11%26h%3d5956406%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos% 3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Also in Southampton: Henry HEADLAND, born 1816 Uxbridge, wife Mary
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/HAMHO107_1669_1669-0990/5956645?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dhenry%26gsfn_x%3dN N%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26MSAV%3d1%26 msbdy%3d1816%26msbpn__ftp%3dUxbridge%252c%2bMiddle sex%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1671369%26msbpn_PInfo %3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c1671369%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26catbucket%3drt%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3dROOT_CATE GORY%26h%3d5956645%26recoff%3d7%2b8%26db%3duki1851 %26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Is he the same Henry who marries Ann Trenley #158
Also in Southampton: Henry HEADLAND, born 1816 Uxbridge, wife Mary
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/HAMHO107_1669_1669-0990/5956645?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dhenry%26gsfn_x%3dN N%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26MSAV%3d1%26 msbdy%3d1816%26msbpn__ftp%3dUxbridge%252c%2bMiddle sex%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1671369%26msbpn_PInfo %3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c1671369%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26catbucket%3drt%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3dROOT_CATE GORY%26h%3d5956645%26recoff%3d7%2b8%26db%3duki1851 %26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Is he the same Henry who marries Ann Trenley #158
That could be my misleading wording Libby - that Henry had a wife named
Mary Hannah. Didn't mean to suggest Ann Trenley M was his wife, but perhaps
a daughter or granddaughter?
I think you're right re Lincs. My father told me a couple of times "I think we
were Lincolnshire farmers."
That could be my misleading wording Libby - that Henry had a wife named
Mary Hannah. Didn't mean to suggest Ann Trenley M was his wife, but perhaps
a daughter or granddaughter?
I think you're right re Lincs. My father told me a couple of times "I think we
were Lincolnshire farmers."
Mary Hannah died in the 50's can't remember which year 1852????? Henry later married an Elizabeth.
What was the ref you found Vita for Ann Trenley marrying a Headland 1868?
If Isaac was from Lincolnshire there's a few born there to choose from :eek:
Mary Hannah died in the 50's can't remember which year 1852????? Henry later married an Elizabeth.
What was the ref you found Vita for Ann Trenley marrying a Headland 1868?
If Isaac was from Lincolnshire there's a few born there to choose from :eek:
Aaaaagh!!!! Am I confusing you with that post? No - 1868 sees Ann Trenley
M. Headland (now you've got me wondering if I am right?) marry somebody
but haven't yet found who. At least that's what it says on FreeBMD as well.
She just popped up when I was browsing Headland marriages around that
time - think I just searched under Headland name.
OK, I've now got my head round it. :)
As Merry said @160 Ann Trenley M Headland married William Reeves Sept 1868, Southampton and they can be found in 1871
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/HAMRG10_1190_1192-0408/14289559?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26indiv%3dtry%26h%3d1 4289559&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
I think she is Henry T (Trenley????) Headland's sister as they are together on these census.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/MDXHO107_1526_1526-0292/2915957?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dann%26gsfn_x%3dNN% 26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26msbdy%3d1818% 26msbdy_x%3d1%26msbdp%3d2%26msbpn__ftp%3dUxbridge% 252c%2bMiddlesex%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1671369% 26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c1671369%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3dCEN_1850%26h%3d 2915957%26recoff%3d6%2b7%26db%3duki1851%26indiv%3d 1%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_727_728-0301/8020938?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dann%26gsfn_x%3dNN% 26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26msbdy_x%3d1%2 6msbdp%3d2%26MSAV%3d1%26msbdy%3d1822%26msbpn__ftp% 3dUxbridge%252c%2bMiddlesex%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn %3d1671369%26msbpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c1671369%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26catbucket%3drt%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3d35%26h%3d 8020938%26recoff%3d10%2b11%26db%3duki1841%26indiv% 3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Not at all certain about my previous post, I'll do some searching to see if I can sort it out.
It's interesting that John Headland son of Isaac and Sarah was buried in Denham 5 Sept 1781 as that's where the Trenley's were in 1700's.
What is puzzling me is Thomas, William and Robert don't appear to have sons named Isaac? So are they sons of Isaac and Sarah???
Perhaps they didn't care much for their father, lol :d
Not at all certain about my previous post, I'll do some searching to see if I can sort it out.
Libby - I still think that what you said is right and William Reeves married Henry Headland's sister, but I had previously thought we were talking about an unknown sister (originally I guessed at daughter until I saw her age as Mrs Reeves) of Henry B Headland (ie children of William the tailor) because vita mentioned they were in Southampton. However, from those census pages you posted it would seem Ann is the sister of Henry T Headland and they are therefore the children of John Headland and Ann Stone.
However, John and Ann's dau, Ann was bap in St Marylebone in 1817 and this Ann says she was b in Uxbridge. At the moment I don't think we were expecting Ann (Mrs Reeves) to be using the middle name Trenley if she was the child of John H and Ann Stone, so.....either John H is tied in with the other Trenley crowd, or the Ann you found on the census isn't the one who became Mrs Reeves!
I haven't been awake that long this morning (we went out last night) and already I feel ready for another lie down in a dark room!
I wish I could see the 1868 marriage cert for the fathers names and any other details. :(
I think she is Henry T (Trenley????) Headland's sister
I think his middle name is Thomas. He's the one there's a thread about where we thought he was cohabiting with Thomas Hughes Headland until Shona pointed out there might be a typo in the trade directory! (it would have been helpful if when I'd made my notes I'd put down the titles of the threads alongside each batch of info :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:)
I haven't yet consolidated my notes, and can confirm my handwriting is rubbish!
I would feel happier if I could also prove Rosanna Mary McGuigen married William Clark, but I've had no joy with that. 50% of the men who live in Southampton never appear on a census as they are all at sea!
Marriages Sep 1868
CLARK William Southampton 2c 49
Headland Ann Trenley M Southampton 2c 49
McGUIGEN Rosanna Mary Southampton 2c 49
REEVES William Southampton 2c 49
Oh no - this is getting worse! Or better, as the case may be.
OK - I was going to pitch in with some thoughts about Isaac & Sarah but I'll stay on
Henry T who may have been in I think Smithfield with Thomas Hughes. I'll just see what
else I've got on him.
Hope you had a good evening Merry, you too Libby, with no bad dreams about Headlands
taking over the world.
It's bothering me that if Ann who married in Southampton is the sister of Henry T H:
1) Why did she go there? Henry doesn't seem to have ever left the London area
2) Where is she in 1861? She is no longer with her brother, who had got married by then.
Ah! Ann, sister of Henry T H and dau of John H and Ann Stone married in 1852 in London to Robert East:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195024-00453/5880743?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dann*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_ x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3djohn%26msfng_x% 3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%2 6cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2% 26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
So, the Ann marrying in Soton is not her.
OK, so the Southampton Ann is someone else, but why can't she be found on earlier censuses?
Whether or not I have the right Ann in 1871 (as Mrs Reeves) I can't find her on the following censuses. If she died in between (or remarried) and she is the Ann T M Headland we are after, her identifying middle name doesn't seem to show up anywhere. :(
EDIT: they are together in 1881.
Ann Reeves is a widow in 1891, b Middlesex 1816.
On the 1891 census Ann is 20+ years older than any other Ann Reeves in the area, so this would seem to be her death even though she has lost a few years:
Deaths Dec 1891
REEVES Ann 71 Southampton 2c 20
Perhaps she was registered by a neighbour (she had no children or husband) who didn't know we needed Trenley to be included in her registration!
Oh, lol, here she is in 1851 - don't know why I didn't see her before.
Ann Headland b abt 1817 Uxbridge, Middlesex, England Servant (Employee) living at Millbrook, Hampshire
Rapidly losing the plot, but if you need post re Henry T its "Another Loose End."
How very appropriate.
tenterfieldjulie
14-06-15, 10:31
Hugs Vita.
I wish I could find William H the tailor in 1841 as it would be very interesting to see if he had any family with him.
As we're on William territory - what's always bugged me is the fact that we have two
William Headlands, both tailors & both b Uxbridge, with one of them ending up in Chapel
St at the same time as mine. That's William Isaac James b 1816 who m Maria Moore.
May mean nothing of course, but seems a bit of a coincidence to me.
Hugs Vita.
Thanks Julie - shall we send some to Merry & Libby too? Plus a damp cloth for
brow mopping & the promise of a good stiff drink in the not too distant future?
Well I did wonder (she said referring to scribbled notes) if William b 1787 was marred twice, to Mary Moore and then to Harriet Birch. His condition is not given when he married Harriet. Unfortunately I can't see a death for Mary at the right time though. I could accept William Isaac James being baptised after William senrs second marriage, though I'd previously thought the mother's name might have been recorded incorrectly as Mary instead of Harriet. (In my own tree the vicar at Wyke Regis Dorset always said Mary if he'd forgotton the mother's name!!
it would make sense for WIJH to be the son of the other tailor. (though the use of the name Isaac in this scenario stresses me lol)
Stresses me terribly too Merry. Particularly as that's the only occasion it crops up
anywhere else.
But its WIJ who married Mary(Maria?)Moore, not Wm b 1787, isn't it?
Ah! Ann, sister of Henry T H and dau of John H and Ann Stone married in 1852 in London to Robert East:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1623/31280_195024-00453/5880743?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dlmamarriages%26so%3d2%26pcat% 3dROOT_CATEGORY%26gss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dann*%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_ x%3d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26msfng%3djohn%26msfng_x% 3d1%26msfns_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3d1%2 6cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3drstp%26MSAV%3d2% 26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
So, the Ann marrying in Soton is not her.
Well done Merry you've confirmed my doubts. I can't remember now why I had doubts as when trying to sort it visitors arrived, when they left I had forgotten where I was up to and decided to move on to another Headland!! I then ran out of steam.
Oh, lol, here she is in 1851 - don't know why I didn't see her before.
Ann Headland b abt 1817 Uxbridge, Middlesex, England Servant (Employee) living at Millbrook, Hampshire
Ooh yes, that's where my doubts rose from. So pleased you've found her. Now to search to try and find who she is, who her parents are. I'm feeling confused, my brain is muddled today - I get days like that!
And my pesky 'b' key is sticking - annoying. But onwards and upwards. Think I saved some records to my shoebox, I'll see if any are relevant to Ann T Headland.
This is the Edward in Southampton, born Uxbridge. Ancestry have him indexed HARTLAND, though it's clearly HEADLAND. He's the Edward Trenley Headland mentioned earlier (I think)
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/HAMHO107_1669_1669-0978/5956406?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26gss%3da ngs-d%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn_x%3dNN%26g sln_x%3dNP_NN%26_F0005C4F%3d1669%26_F0005E11%3d630 %26_F0005906%3d11%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3 d35%26fh%3d11%26h%3d5956406%26recoff%3d%26ml_rpos% 3d12&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Also in Southampton: Henry HEADLAND, born 1816 Uxbridge, wife Mary
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/HAMHO107_1669_1669-0990/5956645?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26gsfn%3dhenry%26gsfn_x%3dN N%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%26MSAV%3d1%26 msbdy%3d1816%26msbpn__ftp%3dUxbridge%252c%2bMiddle sex%252c%2bEngland%26msbpn%3d1671369%26msbpn_PInfo %3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c1671369%257c0%257c%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d1 1%26catbucket%3drt%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3dROOT_CATE GORY%26h%3d5956645%26recoff%3d7%2b8%26db%3duki1851 %26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d2&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Is he the same Henry who marries Ann Trenley #158
Perhaps Ann Trenley Headland relates to these people, she surely must do, do you think :( :confused:
There's this marriage on family search. I think he's probably Ann Trenley Headland's brother.
Henry Birket Headland born 1817, age 26, father William. Mary Gummer 1814 age 29,father William
14 May 1843, Southampton
Sorry vita, I meant Mary White as the first wife, not Mary Moore.
Yes, Libby, that's what I thought, re Ann being a sibling of Henry B H.
He and his siblings are fairly close together though, so I'm not sure where Ann would fit:
Harriet Grace 1812
Ann in here?
Henry B 1816
Harriet Matilda 1818
Eliza Sarah 1823
Edward 1825
More than one of this lot went to Southampton area, so
William's children were baptised at St Margaret's Uxbridge, so not the nonconformist chapel where Thomas and Christiana's were baptised.
TRENLEY has to be significant, I still find it odd that Sarah mentioned only two sons, Thomas and Robert and no mention of William. Not sure my brain is up to this today, may have to leave it and come back to it later.
I have Harriett dau of William bap. 17 Apr 1818, and Harriett Matilda 24 June 1821, both St Margaret's. Presume Harriet 1818 died before 1821 but not looked for a probable death.
Oh, and Edward's baptism doesn't include the middle name Trenley.
Libby - don't give yourself a bad head on my account, please. But at least I feel better
about being defeated by it myself.
How handy if Ann fitted in with Henry B & his siblings.
Re Isaac & Sarah - I've not allowed myself to get too excited about them for that very
reason. What really bothers me is that Sarah says she has two sons living - if that word
'living' wasn't there I would be a lot happier. The ages for Thomas & Robert fit, & Thomas
Hughes was witness for a Robert Headland's second marriage, but I'm still wary about it.
I don't think this has been mentioned before
William Henry Headland son of Maria and William ISAAC Headland a tailor of Clarendon St. 2nd Apr 1837, St Pancras. Born 12 Jan, year obscured.
Yee Ha! At last the name Isaac is mentioned :d
I don't think this has been mentioned before
William Henry Headland son of Maria and William ISAAC Headland a tailor of Clarendon St. 2nd Apr 1837, St Pancras. Born 12 Jan, year obscured.
Yee Ha! At last the name Isaac is mentioned :d
Hate to spoil your Yee Ha! moment Libby, but this would be William Isaac
James Headland who married Maria Moore & ended up in Chapel St same time
as mine. Its the only other time the name Isaac crops up & WIJ was b
Uxbridge, but I've never been able to link the two families.
Told you I've a fuddled brain today. I should have remembered him. Oh sugar!
I have Harriett dau of William bap. 17 Apr 1818, and Harriett Matilda 24 June 1821, both St Margaret's. Presume Harriet 1818 died before 1821 but not looked for a probable death.
Oh, and Edward's baptism doesn't include the middle name Trenley.
Harriet Grace 1812
Ann in here?
Henry B 1816
Harriet Matilda 1818
Eliza Sarah 1823
Edward 1825
I'll type those up again as my hand written notes must leave something to be desired:
Harriet Grace 15 Nov 1812
Ann in here?
Henry Burkin (transcribed as Bevekin ) 4 Feb 1816
Harriett 17 Apr 1818
Charles Edward (transcribed as Edling) 26 Dec 1819
Harriet Matilda 24 Jun 1821
Eliza Sarah 20 Apr 1823
Edward (transcribed as Hadland) 13 Feb 1825
Some of the pages are quite indistinct, so might be worth a manual search for Ann.
And as I said before, we haven't disproved the idea that WIJH isn't the son of Wm the tailor, either by a possible prev marriage to Mary White or a first child with Harriet but a mistake by the vicar when recording WIJH's baptism.
"I'll type those up again as my hand written notes must leave something to be desired:[/COLOR]
Harriet Grace 15 Nov 1812
Ann in here?
Henry Burkin (transcribed as Bevekin ) 4 Feb 1816
Harriett 17 Apr 1818
Charles Edward (transcribed as Edling) 26 Dec 1819
Harriet Matilda 24 Jun 1821
Eliza Sarah 20 Apr 1823
Edward (transcribed as Hadland) 13 Feb 1825
Some of the pages are quite indistinct, so might be worth a manual search for Ann.
But, you have typed them up, Merry. I on the other hand thought I'd rely on memory - a bad mistake and I should know better as I've a memory like sieve
Yes, definitely worth a manual search
And as I said before, we haven't disproved the idea that WIJH isn't the son of Wm the tailor, either by a possible prev marriage to Mary White or a first child with Harriet but a mistake by the vicar when recording WIJH's baptism.
I think you're spot on, Merry
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/MDXHO107_685_685-0183/7450916?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2f%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgss%3dangs-g%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsfn%3dwilliam% 26gsfn_x%3dNN%26gsln%3dheadland%26gsln_x%3dNP_NN%2 6mswpn__ftp%3dSt%2bPancras%252c%2bMiddlesex%252c%2 bEngland%26mswpn%3d85759%26mswpn_PInfo%3d8-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5275%257c85759%257c0%257c%26MSAV%3d1%26msbdy%3d 1837%26msbpn__ftp%3dmiddlesex%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11 %26catbucket%3drt%26uidh%3dun5%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEG ORY%26h%3d7450916%26recoff%3d8%2b9%26db%3duki1841% 26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d4&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
So .... if WIJ is indeed the son of William the tailor, the chances of William the tailor being
the son of Isaac & Sarah are a bit more likely because of the name Isaac?
Plus, WIJ had a son called Robert, which would have been his uncle's name & the only
time it appears anywhere else.
In 1851 William I J says born Uxbridge 1812
From memory (lol) didn't William IJH marry Mary Moore in 1836? He could have waited a year or so, in order to tell us his father's occ!
from memory (lol) didn't William IJH marry mary Moore in 1836? He could have waited a year so in order to tell us his father's occ!
Yes - 1835 I believe.So very inconsiderate of him.
Found it :)
Wm Isaac James of Wm and Mary Headland, no occupation for father.
13th Oct 1811, St Margaret's Uxbridge.
Yes, that's the baptism I meant - should it say Harriet for mother or not?
When this William got married (it was 1836!) one of the witnesses was Henry Headland. Pity Henry didn't identify himself with a middle name.
Yes, that's the baptism I meant - should it say Harriet for mother or not?
When this William got married (it was 1836!) one of the witnesses was Henry Headland. Pity Henry didn't identify himself with a middle name.
Wonder if it was Henry B?
Yes, that's the baptism I meant - should it say Harriet for mother or not?.
Mary is clearly written but of course vicars made mistakes. Has the marriage between Wiliam and Mary White been discluded?
Mary is clearly written but of course vicars made mistakes. Has the marriage between Wiliam and Mary White been discluded?
Not really. Apart from this possible bap of WIJH I can't see any other likely children for the couple.
Might mean nothing at all, but William the tailor b 1787 had a son named Charles Edward
& one of WIJ's children, Robert who emigrated to Australia, named one of his sons
Charles Edward.
I looked through all the pages of baptisms at St Marg uxbridge for the missing Ann (looked 1813-1820) but didn't see anything. I also looked (using the index only, but with absolutely minimal criteria) for the burials of the two Harriets, daus of Wm and Harriet. Nothing found at all which seemed a bit surprising.
Uncle John
14-06-15, 19:59
Has the marriage between Wiliam and Mary White been discluded?
What a wonderful word - discluded.
I've sorted out most of my notes now.
Other bits I've spotted, which I'm not sure are already here......
We already have WIJ Headland marrying Maria Moore in 1836.
We also have Thomas Hughes Headland having a sponsor at his baptism named Ann Moore.
Now I've found the sister of Sarah Headland (Isaac's wife) nee Trenley, Ann Trenley (bap 1755 Denham), married William Moore at St Mary le Strand in 1790. She was no spring chicken for the times, but I guess that was because of all those mantuas she had been making in Uxbridge!
One of the witnesses to the above wedding was the elusive Mary Trenley (the one who had Isaac Headland as one of the witnesses at her wedding in 1797). We already know this elusive Mary married William Hill at that date and now I see that John and Sarah Trenley (parents of Mrs Sarah Headland) were doing business dealings with a William Hill in Denham in 1775 (TNA)
Some other bits on the TNA site show John Trenley (father of Mrs Sarah Headland) was the son of Edward and Ann Trenley of Denham and Edward's mother's first name was Hannah.
Edward and his mother seem to have run the Falcon Inn at Denham for a time at some point before 1729.
http://www.falcondenham.com/
Edward Trenley married Ann Wilkinson at Denham in 1723 (FreeREG)
Their son John married Sarah Newman in 1753 at St Gregory by St Paul, London and their eldest child was Sarah (Mrs Headland)
I have a few more bits and pieces, but these are probably the main ones to be going along with.
Oh well done, Merry.
I go on holiday on Friday which means I've less spare time to give to the search, but being a true FH addict I'll still be popping in here as and when.
Oh well done, Merry.
I go on holiday on Friday which means I've less spare time to give to the search, but being a true FH addict I'll still be popping in here as and when.
Well done indeed Merry! I know I keep saying this, but I really am so very
grateful for the help I'm getting. That applies to everyone who's chipped in,
but especially to you & Libby who have worked so hard over the last few days.
I'm still digesting this latest info,and still trying not to get too excited over
Isaac & Sarah in case one of the Williams puts a spanner in the works, but
this is by far the most progress anyone has ever made.
One further thought - would I be right in saying the fact that Thomas Hughes had Ann
Moore, nee Trenley, sister of Sarah Headland, as a sponsor make a stronger case for
Sarah being the mother of Thomas b 1787 & therefore Thomas Hughes's grandmother?
Or am I getting carried away?
I think it's all very likely. The further we go without finding anything more on the potential existence of another couple alongside Isaac and Sarah who might be the parents of William who married Harriet Birch, the more likely it is that Sarah and Isaac are the parents of all the Headlands we have found for that time period.
We worried about Sarah saying she had two living children with Isaac. We don't seem to be worrying about her living daughter, Ann (bap Rickmansworth) who married Richard Castell in 1808. Richard Castell turned up at one of the later marriages, didn't he? EDIT Wm Headland to Harriet Birch in 1811.
I thought I'd found Ann Castell nee Headland dying in St Pancras in 1855 (right age) but when I found her on the 1851 census she was b in Surrey. However, she was in an institution so the info might not have been accurate. I've found nothing on Richard or any children for them.
Well, I must admit it did cross my mind at some point in the hectic events of the last few
days, but I failed to do anything about it. Yet another worry, I fear. I've been wondering
if Sarah could have answered a question by giving the names of only the two who were
living with her, but I'm probably trying to make things fit.
Well I think it's 98% likely her dau Ann is the one who married Richard Castell, so I think Sarah's answer must have referred to the children she was supporting only. William may have been apprenticed and Ann may have been a servant.
Well I think it's 98% likely her dau Ann is the one who married Richard Castell, so I think Sarah's answer must have referred to the children she was supporting only. William may have been apprenticed and Ann may have been a servant.
That's what I thought - and hoped! Think I'll allow myself to get a bit more
excited.
Love that there's a pub in the mix. Apparently my first words were "Beer,
Daddy, beer!" as my parents enjoyed an al fresco drink at the Swan in
Lawshall, Suffolk on a visit to my gran. Father delighted, mother appalled.
Father delighted, mother appalled.
lol!!
When Harriet Trenley married James Birch in 1787 the ceremony tool place at St Giles without Cripplegate and Harriet was 'of this parish'. One of the witnesses was Mary Trenley.
When the elusive Mary Trenley married 10 years later (to Wm Hill) at St Botolph Aldgate, she was of the parish of St Giles Cripplegate.
This isn't new info, but thought it warranted being written in the same post.
When Harriet Trenley married James Birch in 1787 the ceremony tool place at St Giles without Cripplegate and Harriet was 'of this parish'. One of the witnesses was Mary Trenley.
When the elusive Mary Trenley married 10 years later (to Wm Hill) at St Botolph Aldgate, she was of the parish of St Giles Cripplegate.
This isn't new info, but thought it warranted being written in the same post.
Thanks Merry. Never come across the name Trenley before Sarah was
identified early on in this thread, but Denham area seems to have been full of
them.
6xggparents! So excited about that!
We have a burial for a baby son of Isaac and Sarah Headland at Denham - John in 1781. There are some other Headland burials at Denham and I wonder if any/all of them might be children of the same couple - no parents names mentioned, so they could be any age:
Edward Headland bur 4 Oct 1784
Harriot Headland bur 13 May 1784
Mary Headland bur 29 Nov 1786
George Headland bur 28 Sep 1789
Edw. D Headland bur 28 Aug 1791
Elizabeth Headland bur 19 Aug 1793
If you type Tr?nl*y B*ch into Ancestry there are a lot of entries, many seem to have a trail back to Uxbridge and presumably back to James Birch and Harriet Trenley :).
Their are marriage allegation images on ancestry for John Trenley to Sarah Newman (m 1753) and Ann Trenley to Owen Jones (m 1746) giving their parishes and ages. Don't know if I mentioned that Ann before? She is sister to John T and they are the children of Edward T and Ann Wilkinson of Denham.
I don't know how much of this may now be available online?
The People of Denham
£ 4.00 + P&P
Add this item to your basket
This booklet contains a miscellany of records for the Buckinghamshire parish of Denham which is situated about seven miles north-east from Slough and seven miles south-east from Beaconsfield, adjacent to the county border with Middlesex. Amongst the records included are a Poor Rate Assessment of 1695, an 'Acct of ye houses and inhabitants in the Parish of Denham taken 1749', Land Tax Assessments of 1781, 1801 and 1821 and the census taken in 1841.
Supplied by: Eureka Partnership
Format: Booklet
The will of Owen Jones. He left everything to wife Ann and Brother William. No mention of any children:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/5111/40611_309946-00207/74390?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dcanturburyprerogativecourt%26 so%3d2%26pcat%3d36%26gss%3dangs-c%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26 gsfn%3dowen%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3djones%26gsln_x%3 d1%26mswpn__ftp_x%3d1%26gskw_x%3d1%26_83004002_x%3 d1%26cpxt%3d1%26cp%3d11%26catbucket%3dr%26MSAV%3d2 %26uidh%3d672&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults#?imageId=40611_30994 6-00207
Here's his burial:
Mr Owen Jones Burial 22 Sep 1772 St Margaret, Uxbridge, Middlesex
I'm getting nowhere with what happened to Ann Jones nee Trenley.
This book:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M9RSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=%22owen+jones%22+uxbridge&source=bl&ots=HWSXPvaQM0&sig=qlI-P3ZGZG6xeoRMTZjg7amxbvw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBmoVChMIoZa13OuTxgIVxSPbCh2sygVk#v=on epage&q=owen%20jones&f=false
has several passing interest refs to Owen and his parents (also Owen and Ann) and various siblings.
Your Owen (who btw, left widow Ann £500) had a memorial in the church:
In the north west corner is the following:
Under the Pew lieth the Body of
Mr. Owen Jones of this Town
who Departed this Life
September 16th 1772
Aged 50 years
The next memorial is for his brother, but no mention of Ann.
So interesting Merry - thanks.
The Falcon Inn looks lovely. Trip Advisor rates it highly too - hope they did the same when
Hannah & Edward ran it.
Wonder where Henry Thomas Headland, oil & colour man who seems to have been in
Smithfield with Thomas Hughes in the 1840s, fits into all of this.
It may seem like I've gone off track a bit, but you never know when that eureka moment will happen which ties everything together. You need to get yourself a family history program before everything becomes too unmanageable (if it hasn't already! lol)
I've forgotten now, did we think Henry Thomas Headland was the one who was son of John H and Ann Stone (she was of Hartley Witney?) and was born abt 1812/13?
According to his burial JH was born about 1765, but we don't know where.
I have to go and play Scrabble now. Back later!
According to his burial JH was born about 1765, but we don't know where.
I have to go and play Scrabble now. Back later!
Happy scrabble!
I found a ref to a Sarah Trenley to be examined as a witness in the 1772/3
Cades Divorce Bill, but can't find a report of her statement among the others
on the witness list. Seems to have been a something of a notorious case, the
guilty party being the wife Catharine Cade who was, as they say, a little free
with her favours.
You can read the lurid details here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zvVaAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=Philip+Cade+Esquire+with+Catherine+Whitworth&source=bl&ots=2Roi2pi2By&sig=SLrvvWyNurJAsNHAZINY4yAItCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAmoVChMIxs_rw9WUxgIVwSDbCh19IwC5#v=on epage&q=trenley&f=false
No mention of Trenley though. Looks like they lived at Greenwich, so a bit out of area, but I've not read it all.
You can read the lurid details here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=zvVaAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=Philip+Cade+Esquire+with+Catherine+Whitworth&source=bl&ots=2Roi2pi2By&sig=SLrvvWyNurJAsNHAZINY4yAItCg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAmoVChMIxs_rw9WUxgIVwSDbCh19IwC5#v=on epage&q=trenley&f=false
No mention of Trenley though. Looks like they lived at Greenwich, so a bit out of area, but I've not read it all.
Already had! A bit out of the area I agree, its just the name that jumped out
at me.
KushkaMoon
26-11-19, 11:13
I live near Denham and often frequent the Falcon. The Trenleys are also my ancestors.
KushkaMoon
26-11-19, 11:19
I live near Denham and often frequent the Falcon. The Trenleys are also my ancestors.
This is where I join the Trenleys.
John Atkins was born in 1720 in Harefield, Middlesex. He married Hannah Trenly on 23 December 1742 in Middlesex. They had four children during their marriage.
I live near Denham and often frequent the Falcon. The Trenleys are also my ancestors.
This is where I join the Trenleys.
John Atkins was born in 1720 in Harefield, Middlesex. He married Hannah Trenly on 23 December 1742 in Middlesex. They had four children during their marriage.
OK, So I've made the link - your Hannah(Atkins) was b 1721, the daughter
of Robert Trenley b 1686. Robert was the younger brother of my 6/great
/grandfather Edward Trenley who kept The Falcon at Denham with his
mother Hannah in the early 1700s. There's quite a lot about the Trenleys
on here. Don't know if you've seen it all but another member - Ranwell -
contacted me a couple of years ago as he too is descended from Robert.
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