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tenterfieldjulie
15-11-13, 20:56
I would like advice about locating UK Wills.

I realize what a useful tool wills are in proving that you are tracing the right family, I am confused though (easily:o) about how to locate them, as there seems to be many different locations. I have seen some on TNA and some at ROs. I've found some Bucks ones on their Council site. Are there general locations or do you have to just keep trying? Is there a book that is worth buying in this regard? I know lots of people didn't leave wills, but I have been looking at my Pogsons in Yorkshire and the only way to know for sure which Henry Pogson is mine, is to buy wills, but where do I start!!:eek::o Thanks Julie

ElizabethHerts
15-11-13, 21:11
Julie, I find Yorkshire wills very hard to locate. I contacted the Borthwick Institute at York recently with a long list of deaths in the hope they had wills for at least some of them. They didn't have a single one.

But then, by Googling, I came across a reference to a will of a Thomas Jackson held by Hebden Bridge Local History Society, and it turned out to be for my 4x-great-grandfather. I still don't know where it was proved, so how I would have got hold of it otherwise I don't have a clue. This has led me on to wonderful information about my family.

Every county seems to be slightly different. For Lincolnshire there are some quite good finding aids, and you can also use the search facility on Lincs to the Past. Wiltshire has a good on-line search on the archives' website.

If you need help, the best thing you can do is to post up details of the person and death, and see if the members here can help.

tenterfieldjulie
15-11-13, 21:45
Thanks Liza .. I was hoping that there were some simple guidelines, but I had a feeling that it was pretty complicated. I know that Exeter had quite a collection and they were lost in WWII bombing. Julie

ElizabethHerts
15-11-13, 21:56
The Hebden Bridge Local History Society seem to have a lot of details about the lives of past inhabitants, including books specifically dedicated to wills:

http://www.hebdenbridgehistory.org.uk/publications.html

Julie, it's such a hit-and-miss business. There are so many courts, both large and small. I'm better on some counties than others.

I was surprised when I found a few wills on Ancestry for my Surrey families.

Merry
15-11-13, 22:24
I still don't know where it was proved, so how I would have got hold of it otherwise I don't have a clue.

Is there a record in the Death Duty Registers on FMP?

I still don't understand why some estates do not get a mention in the death duty registers even when it's known the value of the estate was quite high. I remember looking for Libby's OH's ancestor, James Eyre (I think!) who was supposed to have been worth a fortune, but he doesn't have an entry. Eventually found his will at the Borthwick Institute.

ElizabethHerts
15-11-13, 22:39
Is there a record in the Death Duty Registers on FMP?

I still don't understand why some estates do not get a mention in the death duty registers even when it's known the value of the estate was quite high. I remember looking for Libby's OH's ancestor, James Eyre (I think!) who was supposed to have been worth a fortune, but he doesn't have an entry. Eventually found his will at the Borthwick Institute.

Many thanks, Merry, for the nudge. I looked yonks ago, but that was probably before I knew when he died. I have now located it.

It says "Ex York 2 251" (Register 2 Folio 251).

What does the "Ex" stand for? I know there is a variety of Yorkshire courts.

kiterunner
15-11-13, 23:00
It says "Ex York 2 251" (Register 2 Folio 251).

What does the "Ex" stand for? I know there is a variety of Yorkshire courts.

Looks likely to be Exchequer:
http://www.york.ac.uk/library/borthwick/research-support/probate-courts/

Phoenix
15-11-13, 23:15
Highest Court: PCC. Wills are online, adminstrations are not.

England is divided into 2 provinces: York and Canterbury. If you had property in both provinces, it would be proved in Canterbury.

The provinces are divided into Dioceses. These may roughly correspond to modern counties.... or they may not. If you had property in several dioceses, then it would be proved in the appropriate province: PCC or PCY.

The dioceses are divided into archdeaconries. If you had property in several archdeaconries, then the will would be proved in the consistory or commissary court of the diocese.

If your property was solely in an archdeaconry, then the will would be proved in the archdeacon's court.

Unless, of course, you decided to prove the will in a higher court or you lived in a peculiar - a place outside this general system.

Phillimore's Atlas has county maps, showing the boundaries of the various courts for each county. This should still be accessible in major libraries. Alternatively, write to the county record office where your ancestor lived and they should be able to tell you which courts might be involved.

I believe the Wiltshire Wills Project was started because they had wills from over twenty courts which geographically covered several counties.

ElizabethHerts
16-11-13, 07:56
Looks likely to be Exchequer:
http://www.york.ac.uk/library/borthwick/research-support/probate-courts/

Thanks, Kate.

I wonder why Borthwick didn't find it when I asked about it - I gave them all the details.

Merry
16-11-13, 08:42
Alternatively, write to the county record office where your ancestor lived and they should be able to tell you which courts might be involved.


Emphasis on the "should"!! They also "should" be able to tell you who else to contact if they don't hold the will you are after, but in my experience they may not know that either!!

tenterfieldjulie
16-11-13, 08:47
Thanks ladies that is most helpful .. in other words ..keep on looking and looking and you might be lucky ..
I just wish my ancestors' locations didn't stretch from Scotland to Cornwall and everywhere in between, as well as Ireland and Germany. Julie

Merry
16-11-13, 08:58
Yes Julie, including asking in the same place more than once!

tenterfieldjulie
16-11-13, 09:08
Aah Yes .. the 3 ps .. patience and perseverance and persistence lol Julie

HarrysMum
17-11-13, 20:34
This is a great question Julie. As Merry said above, I was also looking for wills.

I'd like to know if there is a list of where wills could be.....I'm fine with PCC, Lancs, Bristol and Borthwick. Well, when I say 'fine' I mean I know they exist....lol

But some wills are sitting in odd little places I have never heard of.

Phoenix
17-11-13, 20:58
In general, wills should be in the appropriate diocesan office - not always the same as the county record office. Peculiars are so called because they are outside the scope of this. They could be anywhere. Mercifully they usually consist of a single parish or manor.

Olde Crone
17-11-13, 21:27
One of my major triumphs in the last 20 years was finding a Will for a possible relative cosying up in a solicitor's office in Salisbury. My daughter was at that time living in Salisbury so I sent her off to get a copy of this Will. The haughty receptionist told her it would cost ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY POUNDS plus VAT. Apparently this huge price was because they would have to get the Will out of storage. I told them not to bother, but fretted on and off for a few months, I really wanted that Will.

To my astonished delight, the same firm of Solicitors then DONATED the Will to Lancs Archives, who supplied me with a copy for the vast cost of £3.50, lol. I am so glad I did not pay £130 for it because it told me absolutely nothing helpful at all!

OC

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 00:16
I'm wondering if we could have an index of counties and locations where people have found wills? Julie

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 05:48
I have just found this on the Hertfordshire Names Online database - fantastic resource

John Ware 1726 Sarratt husbandman filed will 163AW14
John Ware 1726 Sarratt husbandman regis tered will 11AR493

Should I buy both? - Is there different information in the filed will and the registerd will?

I am hoping that this may confirm that I am following the right man:D Julie

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 06:48
Phoenix's comment about the above, made me think that this is worth sharing:D ... Julie

"Australian Town and Country Journal - 2 April 1898"

"Some Peculiar Wills.

Most people are interested in wills directly or indirectly (writes L. S. Lewis, in the "Strand Magazine"). If one has no "expectations" one-self, one has probably often followed some elusive document through three acts of a play or three volumes of a story. Goodness only knows what novelists and dramatists would do without wills.

And everybody is aware that Somerset House is the headquarters of these things; are not the "searchers" one of the sights of the town --a race apart, comparable only to the curious wildfowl met within the British Museum? Thanks to the courtesy of Sir Francis Jeune, the writer was enabled to explore the vast vaults and strong rooms beneath the Probate Registry in which the millions of originals are stored. To these wonderful vaults no one ordinarily has access, but then, the whole world knows that Somerset House is always open to the "Strand." In spite of the ever-present gloom and dust, the spirit of romance pervades the great subterranean chambers we are considering Millions of wills going right down through the ages! The system of arrangement is absolutely perfect. Shakspere's will is as readily produced as that of the lowly Cockney who died the other day.

The oddities and curiosities among this stupendous collection are, as might be supposed, both extensive and peculiar. There is even quite a little museum of more or less romantic objects connected with litigation about wills and these have at one time or another been produced as evidence in court. The courteous Record-keeper, Mr. Rodman, and his assistant Mr. Stevens, do not exactly view these things with boundless enthusiasm, but of the interest attaching to the objects there can be no question.

Just look at the leg of an old-fashioned "four-poster" bedstead in the strong-room or vaults of Somerset House. Briefly, this is the story. The Earl of S- was an eccentric peer, a morose, reserved man, who apparently suspected everybody of sinister motives. He used to hide things. Important deeds and letters, and bank-notes for huge amounts, he bundled into damp cellars, with disastrous results. He would rip open chair-cushions and secrete things there; and, in short, he had treasure of greater or less value in every hole and corner. After Lord S--'s. death, the will and first codicil were readily forthcoming, mainly because they were in safer keeping than his lordship's. The second and most important codicil, however, took no less than three years to find! After the Earl's death the bed on which he slept was unceremoniously pitched into the lumber-room, and it was by the merest accident that a servant at length discovered the long-lost codicil, cunningly tied to the bar of the bedstead leg. The paper was found folded neatly, and resting on the ledge formed by the bar where it meets the bedpost. As his lordship lay in bed, it was his delight to withdraw the will from its hiding-place; (he could do so easily), and either dwell with satisfaction on its contents or else make any slight alterations that pleased him. It was the poor man's only hobby. As the missing codicil contained legacies and bequests to a very large amount, its ultimate production caused a great deal of excitement. And, therefore, in order that the whole romantic story might readily be demonstrated before the Probate Court, a complete model of the entire bed stead was made on the scale of 1in to a foot. . .

Wills are often found in strange places, from weather-cocks to picture-frames, but there is surely but one instance of a will being found in a business day-book. There is a day-book treasured carefully at Somerset House, because a will has been made in it. It is a long narrow book of a well-known kind, and on the outside is written, "Peter Smith, March, 1807. Day-book for the Park." Peter was apparently an overseer, or steward on some big estate. As the Probate people are only concerned with the one folio, the remainder of the leaves are fastened together, so that the book immediately opens at the required place. The entry which is really the will, has been marked "A," and here we read, "Left due to my dear wife, £100 0s 0d." Above is an entry debiting "Mr. Richard Hill" with "3 Beasts at £15 10s 0d." Certainly an unconventional will this.

A punning will is doubly painful, particularly when much of it has reference to the "mode of my burial." A Kentish gentleman who left personal estate worth £10,091 0s 10d, wrote as follows in this connection: "The coffin is to be of red fir. I pine for nothing better. Even this may be thought a deal too good, though certainly not very spruce"-- and so on.

There are in the "Registry" many ancient wills of a highly decorative kind. They contain elaborate drawings and sketches, mainly illustrative of the trade or occupation of the testator. For instance, the initial letter of a certain baker's will takes the form of a sheaf of golden corn. Most of the wills up to comparatively recent times had something distinctive about them. Isaac Walton's is sealed with a curious device, showing the Saviour crucified on an anchor.

Other wills in the great collection contain long sermons; and others, again, abuse of a peculiarly vituperative sort. "I leave," shrieks a barrister, who really ought to have known better, "to Herbert L-- his wife, and Frances Elizabeth, my sister, the happy assurance that their greed, jealousy, folly, plots, schemes, and vile lies have succeeded in making life a burden to me."
"Many times," wailed a Manchester man, who was disinheriting his wife, "she wished I was stiff" --a curious saying, but sufficiently expressive of the lady's weariness of her stricken spouse.

The will next seen came from Egypt, preserved in a bottle of spirit for fear of the plague. The testator was apothecary to his Majesty's forces in Aboukir Bay, and he sent his will in the form of a letter to the surgeon on board the flagship. This is the cheerful way in which the will commenced: --"Aboukir, July l, 1801. My dear -- Being now aflickted with the Plague, the Scourge of Mankind, which will probably soon terminate my existence . . ." etc., etc. On receiving this strange will epistle, the surgeon grew alarmed for his own safety. Fearing that the paper was infected, and dreading to put it with his other papers lest the contagion should spread, he instantly made a copy of it, and then carefully compared that copy with the origin- al. This done, the surgeon placed the original in the bottle of spirit, and brought it home to England with him. When the bottle was opened, no trace of writing could be found on the paper, it having been completely absorbed by the strong spirit. Then of course, the copy had to be produced and proved."

Merry
18-11-13, 07:09
I know there were over 200 different courts through which wills could be proved before 1858. (In Eng/Wales)

Merry
18-11-13, 07:18
Having googled, it's apparently over 300 courts!

Origins has info on the areas covered by different courts here (http://www.origins.net/NationalWills/search/maps/index.aspx):

They also mention this book:

"Probate Jurisdictions: Where to Look for Wills" by Jeremy Gibson

There are a few copies on eBay at very varied prices!

Merry
18-11-13, 07:35
There's a long list of publications here (http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/guide/wil.shtml) too.

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 07:46
Thanks Merry .. what do they say "Where there is a will there is a way".. ooh no now I'm doing it. Julie

Merry
18-11-13, 07:48
lol Julie!

This list isn't just medieval, despite the title:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/probate.shtml

kiterunner
18-11-13, 07:56
The Origins Network / British Origins is working on what they call a "National Will Index", though the coverage is patchy so far.

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 08:03
Merry there is so much info there .. it will certainly keep me occupied for months if not years .. thank you again.. Julie

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 08:07
Merry and Kate .. that is amazing .. definitely years of looking ... I will be old and grey .. oops I am already.. thank you.. Julie
Ladies .. Answer to post 18 please?

Phoenix
18-11-13, 08:10
Julie

Your original question. If there is a will and a registered copy. The will is the original document, so you can see orignal handwriting signatures etc. The regsietered copy should not but may include errors or omissions (pcc ones have spaces because they could not read the writing!)

But the registered copy will also contain the date of when it was proved and who the executors were (as opposed to who were asked to act), which may not be annotated on the original.

I would go for the original in the first place and the copy only if you need the extra info.

ElizabethHerts
18-11-13, 08:11
I have just found this on the Hertfordshire Names Online database - fantastic resource

John Ware 1726 Sarratt husbandman filed will 163AW14
John Ware 1726 Sarratt husbandman regis tered will 11AR493

Should I buy both? - Is there different information in the filed will and the registerd will?

I am hoping that this may confirm that I am following the right man:D Julie

I had on of those on the Origins site. It was for one of my Oxfordshire lot and I bought everthing on offer.

Will be back with more information in a bit - trying to get breakfast organised at present!

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 08:23
Thanks Phoenix and Liza .. steep learning curve for me at the moment .. Julie
I'm having a glass of merlot, so I'll try and stay coherent lol.

ElizabethHerts
18-11-13, 08:33
It was the will of Thomas Eaten.

This was the information I was faced with:


EATON THOMAS EATEN 1777 yeoman, Boycott, Oxfordshire Oxford: Consistory Will, Commission, 99.9; 21/2/22; 302/2/10

ON Reference Document Type Document Reference Contents
No of Images
10949 Registered Will 99.9
3
10950 Original Will 21/2/22 1-75 [filed Cons. wills]
4
10951 Original Will 302/2/10 301-306 [subsidiary docs]
3


If I had a choice I would always go for the original will. However, I got all three document sets here.

The third set - subsidiary docs -

I had an explanation of this from the Oxfordshire Family History Society which explains it better than I can:

"The thing from Benjamin Wheeley (a senior bureaucrat) is a "Commission" -- he is telling a couple of parsons (ie junior bureacrats) to go and swear the Executor to deal with the will properly.
It's a fairly bog-standard thing, and the "form of the oath" would be attached to it as a matter of course.
At that point, he wouldn't have known (or cared) that the Executors were Quakers.

What often puzzles me is that so few of these things have survived, since they must have been issued for the majority of wills -- all but those for which the Executors trundled up to Oxford in person.
I can only assume that the completed forms went back to Rev Wheeley or whoever, and were binned."

ElizabethHerts
18-11-13, 08:36
Thanks Phoenix and Liza .. steep learning curve for me at the moment .. Julie
I'm having a glass of merlot, so I'll try and stay coherent lol.

We are at opposite ends of the day - so my beverage is tea!
Not that anything tastes right - I've finally got this odd virus R passed on.
It's a slight sore throat but my tongue tip is sore and my sense of taste very odd. I can't taste anything sweet at all, so wine tastes fould at the moment!


Re. Thomas Eaton's will - if I could have only have had one I would have just bought the original, but my curiosity got the better of me with the other two sets, so I looked at those too.

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 08:40
More confused .. Elizabeth .. but that isn't unusual ..

I presume that this means the will was written in 1818, but his estate wasn't settled until 1847 .. Does this mean that he died around then? I can't find his death around that time. Julie

First name James Last name Thompson Occupation Farmer
Place Hampden (Buckinghamshire) Date of will 13/12/1818 Date of probate 30/10/1847

ElizabethHerts
18-11-13, 08:45
More confused .. Elizabeth .. but that isn't unusual ..

I presume that this means the will was written in 1818, but his estate wasn't settled until 1847 .. Does this mean that he died around then? I can't find his death around that time. Julie

First name James Last name Thompson Occupation Farmer
Place Hampden (Buckinghamshire) Date of will 13/12/1818 Date of probate 30/10/1847

There are two possibilities in my limited experience:

1. He wrote the will in 1818 but didn't die until 1847 or just before.
2. He wrote the will in 1818 and died sometime after (immediately or a year or so or more) but no-one bothered to have the will proved until 1847.

Phoenix or Kiterunner will probably know more about this than me.

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 08:50
Yes that is my dilemma .. If he died after 1837, he should be fairly easy to find, but patchy if before. He died at Hampden not sure what district that comes under .. off to see Julie

ElizabethHerts
18-11-13, 09:12
Julie, do you still have contact with the lady from the Bucks. FH society? Perhaps she could look on her database for possible deaths for you?

Phoenix
18-11-13, 09:22
Off to work, but my tuppence is: wills could kick around for years because nobody needed to prove them. It is only if you want to transfer property, or discover an old bank book in the bottom of a drawer, or a widow dies or a minor comes of age that proving a will may become important.

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 09:30
Yes I had a Jaffrey son returning from South America after 30 years to Scotland and found some shares in a bridge that his father owned ... the authority's didn't know that either when they sold him up ..
The thing that confuses me with James Thompson is that he was a carpenter when he married 1778 and in 1798, supposedly died 1822, this will written 1818 a farmer?
For curiosity if nothing else, I'll buy wills for William, James and Elizabeth and see what they say. Need to make sure there is money on my debit card first lol Thanks Julie

Olde Crone
18-11-13, 10:30
Farmer would top carpenter in terms of Will-making - a farmer would have land and/or tenancies to pass on (in which various authorities would have an interest) whereas a carpenter probably wouldn't. So he may have been a carpenter as well as being a farmer, but farmer was more important.

OC

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 10:38
Thanks OC that rules him in again. I found James Jnr. in 1841 census as an ag lab working at Chalfont St. Giles. I don't think he would have become the farmer at Hampden in this will.. Need to find debit card and buy the wills. Julie

kiterunner
18-11-13, 12:04
There are two possibilities in my limited experience:

1. He wrote the will in 1818 but didn't die until 1847 or just before.
2. He wrote the will in 1818 and died sometime after (immediately or a year or so or more) but no-one bothered to have the will proved until 1847.

Phoenix or Kiterunner will probably know more about this than me.

Yes, it could mean he died any time between 1818 and 1847.

Phoenix
18-11-13, 13:38
Thanks OC that rules him in again. I found James Jnr. in 1841 census as an ag lab working at Chalfont St. Giles. I don't think he would have become the farmer at Hampden in this will.. Need to find debit card and buy the wills. Julie

Tiny caveat here. People who regarded themselves as farmers could be farming a couple of acres or two hundred. I know that the early directories often did not include the tenant farmers and I rather think that the 1841 census downgraded some of the smaller tenant farmers to ag labs.

Olde Crone
18-11-13, 18:27
Phoenix

And I have a farmer who farmed over 1000 acres for more than 50 years who describes himself as an "ag lab" in 1891! I rather think he was cocking a snook at the nosey authorities....

OC

tenterfieldjulie
18-11-13, 21:26
Did Ag labs in the 1800s usually leave wills? Julie

Phoenix
18-11-13, 22:00
I have an ag lab whose will was proved in the PCC! (Basically, I think, because he wrote it with a stub of pencil, rather than good india ink, so everyone had to swear it was genuine and represented his true wishes) This was 1823.

Olde Crone
18-11-13, 22:10
Julie

Only people who had something to leave left a Will, lol - and that might include an ag lab. You just cannot tell till you look. I cannot say I've found many ag lab Wills, but I have found quite a few land transfers from dead ag labs who were renting a few acres under the three lives system - and these land transfers can be very informative as you can often trace them back for centuries, being held by the same family.

OC

tenterfieldjulie
19-11-13, 06:42
Wow I wish I could find one of those OC .. would be fascinating. So far the only ones I have found are in Bucks for blacksmiths, where I also found an apprentice indenture.
I'm sure there would have been some in Devon but probably got blown up at Exeter.
I bought a Home & Antiques magazine today which said a lady had paid 8 pounds for some 1860s deeds ... "I'll cut them up and use the parchment for projects" this was at Angelessey in Wales .... oooh I wanted to cut her up .. the barbarian .. grrh Julie

Phoenix
19-11-13, 08:23
Devon wills are gone but....

A lot of people were interested in them before WW2. There is an online database, cataloguing what is known. The wonderful Miss Moger made abstracts of thousands of them, including many of my ancestors. But it is heartbreaking to find a list and know that the will you want did not survive.

ElizabethHerts
19-11-13, 08:28
Devon wills are gone but....

A lot of people were interested in them before WW2. There is an online database, cataloguing what is known. The wonderful Miss Moger made abstracts of thousands of them, including many of my ancestors. But it is heartbreaking to find a list and know that the will you want did not survive.

How do you access this database?

I identified just yesterday some that I would love to have seen:

Quintrell, George Gerans 1614 228 Inv.
Quentrall, John Gerrans 1741 A.
Quintell, Henry Gerrans 1742 A.
Quentrell, Richard Gerrans 1746 W
Quintrell, Collan Padstow 1787

I'll have to make a list for other surnames too.

tenterfieldjulie
19-11-13, 09:38
Not sure if this may be helpful Liza.

Cornwall

The Cornwall Record Office catalogue, CROcat indexes all wills in the Record Office by name, but does not include administrations. The CRO holds records of the Archdeaconry of Cornwall and the Peculiar of St Buryan.

The National Wills Index includes:
• Cornwall Archdeaconry Wills & Administrations Vols. I & II, 1569-1799 (BRS 56 & 59);
• Exeter Consistory Wills & Administrations 1532-1800 (BRS 46);
• Wills & Administrations Exeter Principal Registry 1559-1799 (Devon and Cornwall) and Wills & Administrations Archdeaconry of Exeter (Devon) 1540-1799 (BRS 35).
Julie

ElizabethHerts
19-11-13, 09:49
Julie, thanks for that.

Unfortunately I know that I won't ever see these wills (unless someone transcribed them yonks ago) because they are all listed as "not surviving" on the Origins database.

I'm very grateful that my Quintrells moved from Gerrans to St. Blazey, as the St. Blazey wills stayed in Cornwall and have survived.

tenterfieldjulie
19-11-13, 10:12
It is strange I have never looked for wills in Cornwall... which I really should. I have more Cornish blood than any other and I am sure Robert Symons should have left one ... Off to Bris tomorrow for my annual echo and so it will have to wait for another day. Cheers. Julie

Phoenix
19-11-13, 13:28
Devon wills project:

http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonWillsProject/

ElizabethHerts
19-11-13, 13:34
Thanks for posting that link, Phoenix.

ElizabethHerts
24-11-13, 18:42
Origins.net are hosting the National Wills Project.

I found this, which might help people looking for wills:

http://www.origins.net/NationalWills/search/maps/index.aspx


The maps are an aid to finding which court proved which wills.

Origins also has a good search facility for wills, which I use a lot.