View Full Version : France mid 1800s
I knew if I put "Agatha" in the title it would frighten people....
We know Agatha Clark, nee Ariel, married Francois Giacobbi in Paris in 1848.
I have never found her death but her ex husband calls himself a widower in 1851. That could be a lie but he was a solicitor and surely they wouldn't lie.....lol
There was a trust fund she was entitled to and it was advertised until 1857, so not sure about the death dates.
Does anyone know anywhere online that has deaths or births in France or Corsica from about 1848 to 1857 ish?
She could well have had more children with Francois.
Thanks.
kiterunner
30-09-13, 10:57
A lot of French departements and smaller units have their BMD records online, but you would need to know where she died to know which one to search!
This site has a list:
http://genealogy.about.com/od/france/tp/France-Genealogy-Records-Online.htm
kiterunner
30-09-13, 11:00
And the link to the Paris site:
http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/
Thanks......I'm determined....I'll just trawl.
tenterfieldjulie
30-09-13, 11:30
Bonne chance..
Don't forget Mary found the administration for her estate in 1851. Here's the post:
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showpost.php?p=78982&postcount=1
Thanks Merry......for some reason 1851 was in my head, but I couldn't remember why (apart from the census).
Still time for a young fertile girl married to a French man to had a bub....lol Wonder how she died???
kiterunner
30-09-13, 12:14
If you don't manage to find her death, it looks as though you would be able to get a copy of the Admon from TNA at Kew, since it was listed in the PCC Admons:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/AssetMain?iaid=C12117
Did you every get anything for those 1899 entries in the Probate Calendar for Francois and Marie Francoise Giacobbi who died in California?
kiterunner
30-09-13, 12:38
I can't remember, Libby - have you already seen this in the London Gazette?
PDF (http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/25681/pages/1316)
Supplement to the London Gazette March 9 1887
Index to titles of Accounts (with cross references)
CHANCERY
Clark, Agatha, in the matter of the trust of the annuity of Agatha Clark, otherwise Giacobbi, deceased
Year in which the Account was opened
1851
Date and nature of last transaction
19th June, 1857. Payment out
There are a lot of other similar entries, going up to about 1896.
We tried to make sense of those ages ago Kite, but all my emails fell on deaf ears and I never got any replies. Not sure how else I would find out about them.
Mary from Italy
30-09-13, 22:44
I'm afraid we've had all this stuff already on previous threads.
I had a go at trawling the French archives ages ago (and posted the link), but didn't make much headway.
Did the wills for Francesco Giacobbi and his wife have any interesting information in them, Libby?
What you really need to do next is find a researcher to get a copy of Agatha's admon from Kew. No idea how much information there'll be, but presumably a date and place of death at least.
Death duty registers may be a better bet as they should show not only who got the money, but their relationship to Agatha. If she died intestate, would that be widower and children?
Mary from Italy
30-09-13, 22:54
There are a lot of other similar entries, going up to about 1896.
And the mysterious Francesco Giacobbe's estate was probated in 1899 by some sort of heir hunter, so we wondered if he might be Agatha's husband.
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=14416&highlight=francesco
Mary from Italy
30-09-13, 22:57
We assume her second husband François/Francesco survived her, but we don't know if they had any children. I checked the Paris records, but didn't find any obvious births.
Her executor was a French solicitor in London, according to the death duty index.
Her first (divorced) husband and several children by him also survived her.
Mary from Italy
30-09-13, 23:00
I don't suppose you happen to be going to Kew in the near future, Phoenix? ;)
The admons are really easy to search. My Saturdays are tied up at the moment, but if I were battered about the head, I might be persuaded to go.:D
Mary from Italy
30-09-13, 23:03
Consider yourself battered :) :)
Sorry,,,been a bit busy.
I have another thread up about World Ancestry. I thought it would be a one off question and not get dragged in to this thread too much, but.......best laid plans....lol
Mary...the wills had nothing at all to connect to Agatha. I will re-read them when I unpack properly, but nothing connected them to her.
I have found a tree on Ancestry and contacted the owner. She has replied saying she "was told" Agatha died 1851 and Francois remarried and went to California.
So.....another tree has Francois and Marie (nee Salicetti) in California (see the World Ancestry thread). But this tree also has a son William born and died 1851. He was apparently born on board ship.
My thoughts, for what they are worth, .......
Did Agatha die 1851 and Francois remarry Marie, go to California and William was born on the way? This would have had to happen within a year. I cannot find the shipping list to see when Francois arrived California.
Did Agatha die before 1851. Edward Clark calls himself a widow in the 1851 census.
Was William, Agatha's son? Did Agatha die in childbirth either on board ship or before Francois left and he married Marie then.
William is not a name I would associate as being the son of two Corsican parents. Of course it could have been the French version of William.
William is the name of Agatha's grandfather.
So many questions....................
Mary from Italy
03-10-13, 01:08
Mary...the wills had nothing at all to connect to Agatha. I will re-read them when I unpack properly, but nothing connected them to her.
Oh, that's a pity.
I have found a tree on Ancestry and contacted the owner. She has replied saying she "was told" Agatha died 1851 and Francois remarried and went to California.
Doesn't she remember where the information came from?
So.....another tree has Francois and Marie (nee Salicetti) in California (see the World Ancestry thread). But this tree also has a son William born and died 1851. He was apparently born on board ship.
My thoughts, for what they are worth, .......
Did Agatha die 1851 and Francois remarry Marie, go to California and William was born on the way?
It doesn't look as though he was born on the way to the US, because he's supposed to have been born in 1851, and there's another child called Elisa/Lizzie who's said to have been born in Paris on 23/11/1853. So maybe William was born between Corsica and France, then Elisa was born in France, and then they went to California, where the next child, Nina, was born in 1854.
Did Agatha die before 1851. Edward Clark calls himself a widow in the 1851 census.
Could be - admons were usually done quite quickly in those days, but maybe not if the deceased was abroad.
Was William, Agatha's son? Did Agatha die in childbirth either on board ship or before Francois left and he married Marie then.
William is not a name I would associate as being the son of two Corsican parents. Of course it could have been the French version of William.
I wouldn't absolutely rule out his being Agatha's son, because the trees on Ancestry may be inaccurate, although it's interesting that they have some exact birth dates.
However, I tried to find the births of William and Elisa in Paris, and Agatha's death, but there's no sign of them.
The BMD records up to 1859 are quite easy to search, because you don't need to know which arrondissement of Paris the person was born in. However, as I mentioned on one of your earlier threads, a lot of these records have been destroyed; the archive has been reconstructed from the surviving documents, but about two-thirds of the archive is missing.
You can browse the records here:
http://canadp-archivesenligne.paris.fr/archives_etat_civil/avant_1860_fichiers_etat_civil_reconstitue/index.php
In the drop-down list, where it says Type d'acte choose acte de naissance for births, acte de mariage for marriages and acte de décès for deaths, then enter the surname where it says Nom de la personne recherchée. Click on Visualiser to view the images.
The records are then in alphabetical order by surname.
So many questions....................
Hopefully at least one of them (Agatha's date and place of death) will be answered by the admon if Phoenix can find it.
I hadn't seen this thread when I replied to the other one - sorry if I started taking it off track !! For what it's worth, there's a passport application for Louis Agazio Giacobbi, son of "Francios", born 15 Apr 1858 in Santa Clara, California. It states his father emigrated to the US in 1852.
tenterfieldjulie
03-10-13, 11:31
Don't worry Rick .. Agatha has been driving Libby around in circles for years .. you ask the others on GF lol ... certainly never a dull moment .. when Agatha hunting is happening ..
Thanks Rick. Not sure how good those dates are. William is said to be born on board ship in 1851. It doesn't say where the ship was though. Francois went to USA in 1852 and Elisa was born in 1853 in France. I've seen worse trees though...lol
***pokes tongue at Julie***
tenterfieldjulie
03-10-13, 11:58
tuts .. haven't you heard of bilocation ... the mention of Agatha does my head in .. well Essex is doing mine in at the moment too ....
Don't worry Rick .. Agatha has been driving Libby around in circles for years .. you ask the others on GF lol ... certainly never a dull moment .. when Agatha hunting is happening ..
Ah well - that's me sucked into things too now then !
Perhaps Libby could give a quick summary of what she does and doesn't know so I don't have to go back and read lots of old threads ? I was thinking that the 1860 census might be revealing, but I can't find them yet. The Paris records on Ancestry only have deaths from 1860, although I can see the 1848 marriage on there and one for a brother of Francois too.
Mary from Italy
03-10-13, 12:39
Just checking, and the only census we've found for them previously was the 1880, which you also found.
I've just had another look, and I've now found them in 1870, transcribed as Jacoby:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7163/4259317_00349/13559122?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dfran*%26gsln%3d% 26sx%3d%26f31%3dCA%26f5%3d%26f6%3d%26f17__ftp%3dfr an*%26rg_81004011__date%3d1810%26rs_81004011__date %3d20%26f15__n%3d%26f8%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26d b%3d1870usfedcen%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3da ngs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d50%26fh%3d50%26fsk%3dCIA AG-47-sArsrZ&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
It shows Françcois (Francis), Marie (Mary) and Eliza (16) as born in France, and the other children in California.
Thanks Mary.
I don't have access to World Ancestry so not sure what is around in USA for them.
Rick.....in a nutshell....
Agatha Ariel, daughter of Myles Ariel and Elizabeth Naylor born 1822, Bristol.
Marries solicitor, Edward Clark 1839, Bristol.
Has six children with Edward, who then divorces her in 1845.
Agatha then pops up marrying Francois Giacobbi in Paris in 1848.
I really have everything on Agatha prior to this.
Agatha's ex husband calls himself a widow in 1851 census. He later remarries.
Apparently Agatha dies circa 1851.
Have we seen what might be a much earlier arrival in New York in 1839 for Francois aborad the "Erie" aged 24 ? On Ancestry as Franas Graccoby and Familysearch as Francois Giaccobi.
Mary from Italy
03-10-13, 13:01
That's interesting, I don't think anyone has found that before.
1860 as Tacoben !!
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7667/4211324_00432/2756245?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dnina%26gsln%3d%2 6sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f3%3d%26f4%3d%26f13__ftp%3dcalifo rnia%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__date%3d 1%26f12%3d%26f11%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3d18 60usfedcenancestry%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d %26gss%3derror%26gst%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Mary from Italy
03-10-13, 13:40
Ooh, well done, I'd spent ages looking for that.
Me too. It was searching for "Nina" from the public tree that led me to it, but surely that's really the same person as Eliza on the 1871 ? Looks more like Irina to me. And Mary/Marie's age is 20.
My transcription for those without a sub:
Francis Jacobin 40 Italy Ag lab
Maria 20 Italy
Irina 6 Cal
Emilia 3 Cal
Agacio 2 Cal
Fremont, Santa Clara, California
Mary from Italy
03-10-13, 14:08
Me too. It was searching for "Nina" from the public tree that led me to it, but surely that's really the same person as Eliza on the 1871 ?
That's what I was thinking, and Eliza then disappears from the censuses.
However, one tree has a death for Nina in California in 1865, and a marriage for Eliza/Lizzie to Joseph Mortier. Unfortunately he's a widower by 1900, and I don't think the 1890 census has survived.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/9236518/person/-16764039
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