Who Do You Think You Are - Marianne Faithfull 18th Sep

[kiterunner]

On BBC1 at 9 p.m. and repeated next Monday at 11:05 p.m.

[Anstey Nomad]

Isn’t she related on her mother’s side to the Masochs, of masochism fame? This could be interesting. :D

[Shona]

Isn’t she related on her mother’s side to the Masochs, of masochism fame? This could be interesting. :D

Her maternal great-great, Leopold von Sacher-Masoch, wrote Venus in Furs - hence the term 'masochism'.

[Shona]

Twenty-odd mins in and we're still on her mum. Pls bring on some genealogy v soon.

[Margaret in Burton]

No family history at all. Just a history lesson on Nazi's, Jews and The Red Army.

[Piwacket]

Very much a personal need for understanding - but perhaps that should have been done in private? Presumably the Directors of the programme felt we needed to have this lesson? But certainly not a programme about Geneaology :(

[kiterunner]

Episode synopsis:

Marianne Faithfull was born in 1947,the daughter of Robert Glynn Faithfull and Eva Hermine von Sacher-Masoch, who married in 1946 and divorced by the time Marianne was 6. Marianne married John Dunbar, an art dealer, in the 1960's and had a son Nicholas but this marriage didn't last long either.

Eva and her brother Alexander grew up in Vienna. Their parents were Artur von Sacher-Masoch, an aristocrat who served as a Lieutenant-Colonel in WW1, and Elisabeth Flora, known as Flora, who was a Hungarian Jew.

The family moved to Berlin in the 1920's. Alexander became a left-wing journalist and Eva a dancer.

Marianne visited Berlin and met a dance historian who showed her photos of Eva and her friend Hede Mehrmann dancing at the Barberina Club. Eva and Hede performed in politically radical shows such as "Ping Pong" as the Nazis came to power, but by 1933 they were performing in a more conventional entertainment, "Der Bauer als Millionair". Hede died in Auschwitz in 1943.

Artur, Flora and Eva left Berlin for Vienna in 1934 and Alexander stayed. But the Nazis brought in rules requiring writers to join the Nazi writers' organisation and prove their Aryan ancestry, which Alexander couldn't do, so he left Germany and went to Yugoslavia.

Marianne went to Vienna, to the National Library, and met an historian who showed her Artur's registration card from 1934 which described him as a retired high-ranking military officer and showed he had the title Ritter (knight). Marianne was shown her family tree including the Von Sacher-Masoch line going back to the first Ritter, Johann Nepomuk Stephan Sacher who was knighted in the Austrian Empire in 1832.

A registration card from March 1937 showed that Artur and Flora moved to an apartment in the Hungarian embassy. Marianne was shown a document stating that Flora had changed her name to Elisabeth Flora Sara Sacher-Masoch - Jewish women were forced by the Nazis to add the name Sara and men the name Israel. Marianne was shown Flora's ID card with the letter J for Jude stamped on it. Flora's marriage to Artur counted as "privileged" because of Artur's high rank, which protected her to some extent.

Marianne was shown a household registration form describing Flora as "Mischling" (mongrel) of the 1st degree. This meant that one of her parents was Jewish, and there were Nazi rules which meant that she would not be allowed to marry a non-Jew. There was a note on the registration saying that the Gestapo required to be informed of any change of address for the Sacher-Masoch family.

Marianne visited the documentation centre of the Austrian resistance, and was shown a secret message sent from prison by the resistance leader Walter Kampf, which asked Lieutenant Colonel Sacher-Masoch to warn certain resistance members that they were in danger. An interview given by Alexander in the 1970's told how he introduced Artur to the communist resistance, and how Artur was questioned five times by the Gestapo.

Marianne met another historian who confirmed that the Russian Red Army soldiers raped a lot of women when they liberated Vienna in 1945. Eva and Flora were among the rape victims. After the war, Eva restarted a magazine called Frau und Mutter (Woman and Mother) and Marianne read an editorial written by her.

[kiterunner]

Well, there was a family tree in it...! But it was only shown for a very brief moment. Marianne seemed surprised to find out that the Nazis were mad.

I was interested to hear about the adding of "Sara" or "Israel" to the Jewish people's names, as I have seen lists where all or nearly all the people have these middle names and I wondered about it.

[Olde Crone]

I can't stand Marianne Faithfull but I have to say she has gone up in my estimation as a result of this programme. She is much more intelligent and thoughtful than I had given her credit for.

I thoroughly enjoyed this rivetting programme, but I agree, it wasn't really genealogy, it was her personal history. There's a difference I think.

And now I know why my Jewish MIL insisted that my daughter have the name Sara as one of her names!

OC

[Shona]

V biographical. Impressive historians. Revelatory with regard to Nazi attitudes. Historically absorbing. Genealogy? Nope.

[Olde Crone]

I did wonder a bit whether they bigged up her mother's career as a serious dancer. To me (who knows nothing about artistic dance!) it all looked a tad sleazy.

OC

[Rick]

I enjoyed that. Cut off the opening and closing credits and ignore the overly-familiar voiceover and you've got an absorbing documentary with little to do with WDYTYA.

This series really doesn't know where it's going, other than to steer away from the reality of genealogical research. Maybe they have realised that everyone's doing it themselves now and hence the ready-made trees in every episode. I'm trying not to be irritated that the format has moved even further from what we enjoy doing, but it's heartening they can still produce a decent piece of TV - a rarity in this series.

[Guinevere]

I've just watched it and I thought it was wonderful. I've always been fascinated by Berlin before the war since reading Christopher Isherwood's books. Cabaret is my favourite musical.

Not genealogy but my favourite so far.

I've always like Marianne but prefer her post addiction work to her early poppy stuff.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Only slighty on topic here, but I've just visited Coolgardie Cemetery in West Australia. It is an old gold mining outside the better known Kalgoorlie. A section of the cemetery has a Jewish section, a historian told me that the graves are marked with two dates one dates from Christ (Gregorian) and the other from Abraham. From what I could see, if I was looking at the right graves (there are also Afghan graves there) it looked like it was written in Hebrew. This is not the Pioneer Cemetery as while there are 1000s buried there only 3 headstones survive. I am wondering if this is common with Jewish people, to use a calendar from the time of Abraham, which would be 3000 years earlier? Julie

[Piwacket]

I've just watched it and I thought it was wonderful. I've always been fascinated by Berlin before the war since reading Christopher Isherwood's books. Cabaret is my favourite musical.

I'm the same, absolutely fascinated, bit like the last days of the Roman Empire (from what I've read of that) and I too regard Cabaret as one of my favourites. ''Goodbye to Berlin'' which I read many years ago gave such a contemporary insight into that period and to me went some way to understanding how the Nazis gained such overwhelming support, but even so is almost unbelievable! A total breakdown of Morals and morale was taking place and in a horrifically twisted way Hitler and his henchmen seemed, in simplistic terms, to offer hope of a better way of life. But we see that power like that is corrupt and evil and inhumane and is a lesson that hopefully is taught in all schools...

... in that way the Producers of this episode gave a timely reminder of a situation that millions lived through and should never ever be repeated. If it's got people talking of the horror of those years which geneaologically will have affected many families then that's probably a good result.

[Olde Crone]

Julie

Yes, Jewish life events are always recorded by the date on the Jewish calendar. This can lead to a bit of confusion when they are translated into the western calendar, by people whose common reference is the Jewish calendar!

This current year (2013) is something like 5750 (an inaccurate guess by me, too lazy to look it up!).

Dorothy - yes, I agree, anything which reminds us of the unbelievable insanity of the Nazi regime is never wasted. Although we are all aware of the atrocities of the holocaust, it is still nevertheless shocking to see evidence that a human being was seriously classified as a mongrel.

OC

[kiterunner]

Eva's friend Hede Mehrmann has an entry on IMDb; she was in a film in 1934:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1675837/

I'm not sure if they mentioned this on the programme?

[Shona]

Brazier's Park where Marianne grew up when her parents were together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braziers_Park

[Piwacket]

Interesting Shona :) and this

Baroness Eva Erisso, a former ballerina. Their daughter, the singer and actress Marianne Faithfull, spent some of her early life in the community. Mick Jagger of the Rolling Stones came to stay with Marianne Faithfull at Braziers Park after his release from prison in 1967 as her then boyfriend. In her autobiography she described Braziers Park as a “mixture of high utopian thoughts and randy sex”.


rather conflicts with her statement that both her mother and her hated men :confused: and the inference that I understood from her speaking of her early life, that the 'palace' was part of her mother's family.

[Shona]

Marianne's father was rather absent from the episode, although she wrote about him (and her mother) in Dreams and Reflections (published 2008). This may be because he remarried. His second wife and their children are alive.

Some info on Marianne's father.

Faithfull, (Robert) Glynn (1912-1998)

Son of Theodore Faithfull. An OWC activist and a student helper at Grith Fyrd in 1932-3 before teaching at his father’s school. Norman Glaister and Glynn Faithfull formed the Braziers School of Integrative Social Research after the Second World War.

Faithfull, Theodore James (1885-1973)
Born Theodore James Faithfull Davies in Eastbourne. Took surname Faithfull-Davies and then Faithfull. Trained as a veterinary surgeon, becoming a Major in Veterinary Corps. Pioneer of psychoanalytical ideas and inventor of the Frigidity Box - designed to liberate the libido. Set up Priory Gate School and Hazeleigh School. Became psychotherapist in Hampstead. Died in Birmingham. Described by John Bowlby as an 'inspired manic-depressive'.

Marianne's father, known as Glynn, was multi-lingual and worked behind enemy lines for M16 during WW2. It was this work which brought him into contact with the Sacher-Masoch family when they lived in the Hungarian embassy in Vienna.

Glynn and Eva lived first in Ormskirk (he was completing his doctorate at Liverpool University) and then Braziers Park. Eva disliked the uncoventional commune lifestyle.

Glynn had two brothers and sisters. One sister was the wife of the second Baron McNair.

[Ann from Sussex]

Agree that this wasn't really a genealogy programme, but my goodness I found it absolutely fascinating. I remember Marianne from when she was a wild teenager...but oh so beautiful. As we are the same generation I always had a bit of sneaking envy where she was concerned, not for her life style but for her looks! She was one of the first people in the 60s to be famous for being famous I think. She certainly never seemed talented in any way other than attracting publcity. I was struck last night by what a nice woman she seems to have turned into and I found the history rivetting even though it isn't really anything new to me. Having said that, I don't think I have ever seen one of those instruction charts on how to recognise a Jew although I have heard of them. I would have liked to hear a bit about what happened to the rest of the family after the war. Presumably her grandparents came to England as she gave me the impression that she had known them.

P.S. I had always assumed that Faithfull was a stage name.

[Margaret in Burton]

Agree that this wasn't really a genealogy programme, but my goodness I found it absolutely fascinating. I remember Marianne from when she was a wild teenager...but oh so beautiful. As we are the same generation I always had a bit of sneaking envy where she was concerned, not for her life style but for her looks! She was one of the first people in the 60s to be famous for being famous I think. She certainly never seemed talented in any way other than attracting publcity. I was struck last night by what a nice woman she seems to have turned into and I found the history rivetting even though it isn't really anything new to me. Having said that, I don't think I have ever seen one of those instruction charts on how to recognise a Jew although I have heard of them. I would have liked to hear a bit about what happened to the rest of the family after the war. Presumably her grandparents came to England as she gave me the impression that she had known them.

P.S. I had always assumed that Faithfull was a stage name.

I was surprised that Marianne Faithfull wasn't a stage name.

[Shona]

I would have liked to hear a bit about what happened to the rest of the family after the war. Presumably her grandparents came to England as she gave me the impression that she had known them.

Both of Marianne's grandparents, Arthur and Eva, died in Vienna - 1953 and 1955 respectively. Her brother, Alexander, is buried in the Grinzinger Friedhof in Vienna - he died in 1972.

Artur Wolfgang Ritter von Sacher-Massoch was born in Graz, Austria. He married Elisabeth Flora Ziprisz in Romania (and it would be Transylvania!) in 1901. The couple's son, Alexander, was born in 1901 in the Czech Republic, while Eva was born in Budapest in 1912.

Elisabeth's father was Wilhelm Ziprisz and her mother was named Therese.

I read somewhere that the Sachers were of Spanish origin.

*wonders if the family are linked to the chap who created the sacher torte*