C17th stuff

[Asa]

Genealogically speaking, I've recently moved from South Oxon to the villages around Wallingford that used to be in Berkshire. I'm trawling through PCC wills with great success, finding all sorts of intermarriages and direct ancestors that don't appear in the patchy PRs.

I've stumbled across a direct ancestor Anne Sambo(u)rne daughter of Henry, a knight. This is new territory for me and I'm delighted that there seems to be an authentic pedigree for the family back to the C13th. However, the info for the C17th needs a lot of research and is what interests me most at the moment. Again, the PRs are patchy and, for example, Anne's father died intestate. Apart from a couple of knights, the wills and other records show the families were mostly yeomen and gentleman (rich yeomen I'm assuming in these cases).
Is this the sort of family who would appear in Visitations? Or are there other collections I should be looking in? The sirs were definitely knights and not baronets.

[Phoenix]

I have several relatives blightingly called ignobilis. Heralds weren't taken with ordinary yeomen farmers. But James I needed money and created a lot of baronets. My lot who bought their titles appear in the Visitations, even though that is sometimes sneeringly referred to.

Families yo-yoed so you may find it's a younger brother who has become a baronet, but the ancient family were more important.

The good news is that there are masses of records about. E179 is the class for taxation records at TNA. These lists usually come in small rolls for individual hundreds - you want the ones with names - and the position of your man in the list, how much he pays and his title would provide clues.

If they were litigious, you can find out all sorts of things. Put the surname into Discovery and see what comes up.

Some lists of names are held are held at the House of Lords Record Office. I've never been there, but they do have useful stuff for the period.

Look to see if local record societies have published anything for the period. They love arcane Stuart records.

Even if someone did not leave a will, there may be an Inquisition Post Mortem. This was to find out if the king could get his sticky paws on any money after a man died. It lists the man's land (I found details that tallied exactly with land tax several centuries later) and his heir/ heiresses and gives the age of the heir.

There is masses of stuff out there. Visitations are oral histories. The more important a family, the more there are likely to be. And since two people can never agree on the past it is helpful to look at as many versions as possible, to see where they disagree. I have a family with lots of similar names, intermarriage (to brides with the same names) sometimes multiple marriages and it is not unusual to discover the pedigree a couple of generations apart giving you a feeling of deja vu.....

[Olde Crone]

I agree with Phoenix, don't take the pedigrees too seriously unless you can back them up independently.

I have a few where two generations have been completely airbrushed out because the REAL inheritor was declared illegitimate by the Pope and excommunicated, even though the third generation, the legitimate inheriting one, was descended from this so-called illegitimate heir!

I still think that one of my very best finds ever was Lady Cecily (Sizlly, lol) Mitton receiving dower lands from her mother in 1218 and said lands being let at a rent of "one red rose and a silver arrow" (or similar).

I was utterly stunned to find in the 1800s, the SAME piece of land being rented in the family "the dower lands of Lady Cecily de Mitton, rent one red rose and a silver arrow". That was more than 600 years later! Follow the money, say some researchers. I'd say "and follow the land, too".

OC

[Asa]

Thank you both - apparently this one chap "registered a pedigree" in the C16th but that means blither all to me and I suppose just means they registered what they handed in:)

What's really nice for me is the opening up of new stuff to research - and I can remember looking at visitation stuff years ago but just out of curiosity. I'm going to Berks RO soon so I'll see what they've got in published stuff - thinking about it, church memorials might be recorded too for the C17th.

Phoenix, I'll have a go at Discovery but I really struggle with it! :-)

[Phoenix]

There are lots of references to Henry Sambournes on Discovery. It looks like a chap with more than one house who kept on changing his mind about where he wanted to be taxed. This should provide clues about other places to look for records.

[Guinevere]

The Manor Court books for his residence will probably have details of his copyhold land holdings. They are fascinating.

[Asa]

Would they be at the relevant RO, Gwynne?

Phoenix, I've found them :-) British History online is also very helpful

[Olde Crone]

Ah yes, I meant to mention British History online. Lots of people knock this but I think it's a great prompt and it does at least give sources which you can check for yourself.

OC

[Asa]

BH online is a really good overview isn't it, OC? - leads you to other things and has original sources or quotes them.

[Guinevere]

Would they be at the relevant RO, Gwynne?



Yes. Nearly all have survived in some places. Others are patchy. The LDS have also filmed some.

You can also get some information about their financial responsibilities from the Parish Chest papers. Landowners were required to maintain roads, for example.

I have a note that one of mine donated money to buy a burying ground and the name of the man he bought it from.