View Full Version : Can someone find a marriage please?
Thomas Thompson is on the 1861 census with his wife Ellen and children Florence aged 7 and Thomas aged 1.
RG 9; Piece: 2914; Folio: 63; Page: 31
In 1871 Thomas is with wife, Ellen L and children Florence, 17, Thomas H, 11 and Nellie L, 3.
RG10; Piece: 3993; Folio: 130; Page: 25
I can't find Thomas on a census before or after these 2.
Thomas H(enry) son is in Australia by 1885 and Nellie L(ouisa) is in Australia by 1904. I have no information to say the parents went to Australia but they are deceased by 1904 when Nellie marries.
Thomas Henry is born 03 May 1860, baptised 06 Jul 1862 mother called Louisa, Nellie Louisa is born 20 Jan 1868, baptised 19/2/1871 mother Ellen Louisa. I can not find any baptism record for Florence.
Ellen Louisa's surname may be Walters but I don't know why I think that, nor can I find any records of her.
Can anyone find a marriage for Thomas and Ellen or find them on any other census?
Where are they in 61, Kit and does it have a birth place?
Found the census. There is a birth in Salford for a Florence Newton Thompson 1856. Bit out with the age on the census, but could be her.
Can't find any suitable Thompsons or Thomsons marrying in Salford between 1850 and 1856. Might have been elsewhere, but that's where they were born and where Flo was born.
I found that birth on freebmd but it is not on ancestry's baptisms, sadly
kiterunner
13-09-13, 13:59
Does either Thomas jr or Nellie's death registration give the mother's maiden name?
kiterunner
13-09-13, 14:13
This could be the Butterworth family in 1881 who the Thompsons were visiting in 1861:
1881 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/LANRG11_3910_3914-0955/10334010?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dja*s%26gsln%3dbu tterworth%26sx%3d%26f1%3dLancashire%26f2%3d%26f3%3 d%26f18%3d%26f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d1860% 26rs_81004011__date%3d5%26f29%3d%26_82004011%3d%26 _82004013%3d%26_82004014%3d%26_8000C002%3d%26_8000 8002%3dann*%26_80018002%3d%26f7%3d%26f8%3d%26f9%3d %26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3duki1881%26ti%3d5538%2 6ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3drfs%26gst%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
There is an 18 year old daughter transcribed as Ella L on ancestry but it could be Ellen L. Just wondering if the Butterworths are related to the Thompsons since they may have named a daughter after Ellen Louisa. But now I need to find the name of Ann Butterworth's husband!
kiterunner
13-09-13, 14:18
Ann Butterworth is a widow in 1871 too:
1871 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/LANRG10_4061_4063-0035/17896132?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dell*%26gsln%3dbu tterworth%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4%3d%26f18__n %3d%26f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d1863%26rs_81 004011__date%3d2%26f27%3d%26f14%3d%26f15%3d%26_800 0C002%3d%26_80008002%3dann*%26_80018002%3d%26f7%3d %26f8%3d%26f9%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3duki18 71%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3drfs%26g st%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Children James W 11, Ellal L 8, Frances 6, Katherine 2.
It does look as though the daughter's name is Ella, not Ellen, as there is a birth registration on Lancs BMD in 1862, and unfortunately Lancs BMD doesn't show the mother's maiden name for any of the Butterworth children. This could just be a wild goose chase anyway!
kiterunner
13-09-13, 14:25
Well, someone has the Butterworth family on their public ancestry tree with Ann's maiden name as Walter. And guess what? She has a sister Ellen Louisa Walter born 1827, but they show her marrying an Isaac Newton (really) in 1848. I think the name Newton was mentioned earlier in this thread?
kiterunner
13-09-13, 15:23
It looks as though they may be one of those families where people don't wait for the first spouse to die before taking up with another one, as it appears from that public ancestry tree that Ann's "husband" James Lawrence Butterworth had two families on the go at the same time.
I found a Florence Newton Thompson birth in Salford about the right time, just a tad later than expected.
Does either Thomas jr or Nellie's death registration give the mother's maiden name?
I don't know if I have it off the top of my head. I've been to the grave and would have got the date from there.
Looking at NSW BDM his death registration does have parents first names so it may do. I'll dig my certificates folder out later this afternoon and check, although it is strange I haven't made note I had the cert on my tree.
Nellie's death registration does not have any parental details just her age.
If I don't have the cert I need it I need to track down who registered the death as they clearly know more than Nellie's branch of the family.
kiterunner
14-09-13, 09:47
Well, I'm sure Ellen Louisa must be Ann's sister, Ellen Louisa Walter, who married Isaac Newton.
If she is my Ellen Louisa then Isaac Newton dies.
Here is the link for the marriage so I can find it again later.
Ellen Walter and Isaac Newton (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2576/4239498_01104/4954202?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d1%26ms T%3d1%26gss%3dangs-c%26gsfn%3disaac%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dnewton%26gs ln_x%3d1%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drp%26uidh%3de35% 26cp%3d4%26mssng0%3dellen%2b%26pcat%3d34%26h%3d495 4202%26recoff%3d9%2b10%2b32%2b43%26db%3dLacanshire ParishMarriage%26indiv%3d1%26ml_rpos%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
Can't find Isaac and Ellen on the 1851 census.
Can't find a death for Isaac and can't find a marriage for Ellen and Thomas.
Of course none of those things have to have happened.
In 1852 Isaac Newton married Elizabeth Butterworth. Not sure if it is relevant but both surnames have been mentioned.
I have asked about this family before but not for the marriage. Mary found this about Florence before:
name: Florence Thompstone
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 07 Sep 1856
baptism/christening place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
father's name: Thomas Thompstone
mother's name: Ellen Louisa
indexing project (batch) number: I00980-3
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 438178
Here is the ancestry image: Florence Thompson Baptism (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2965/40366_294620-00865/336827?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
kiterunner
15-09-13, 09:26
The date of birth is shown on there - 3 Jun 1856, which fits with the birth registration that Libby found for Florence Newton Thompson.
The Isaac Newton / Elizabeth Butterworth marriage in 1852 is on FamilySearch and it gives the name of Isaac Newton's father as William, so it looks to be a different Isaac from the one who was married to Ellen Louisa.
kiterunner
15-09-13, 09:38
The witnesses on the Isaac Newton / Ellen Louisa Walter are William Littlejohn Dowie and Catherine Dowie. There is a marriage between William L J Daurie or Dowrie and Catherine Walter in 1845 at Hulme Holy Trinity, Manchester (Lancs BMD).
Here is their marriage in the Manchester PRs on ancestry; it took some finding!
ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2962/40364_605905_0127-00008/6326421?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3dManchesterMarr iagesCRO%26rank%3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2% 26msT%3d1%26pcat%3dBMD_MARRIAGE%26gss%3dms_r_db%26 gsfn%3dcat*%26gsfn_x%3dXO%26gsln%3dwal*%26gsln_x%3 dXO%26msgdy%3d1845%26msgdy_x%3d1%26uidh%3dvm5%26ms gdp%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
I found deaths for Thomas and Ellen Louisa in Cheshire in 1881 and 1875.
Same address and same parish which was very nice of them. Thomas died in January, which I think is inconsiderate, he could have waited until after census night.
Still can't find that marriage lol
Here is their marriage in the Manchester PRs on ancestry; it took some finding!
That is a great find Kate. That is definitely the sister of Ellen who married Isaac as the father is the same. Now to prove they are definitely mine.
kiterunner
15-09-13, 15:46
This could be Thomas in 1851:
1851 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/30859_A008129-00123/11604979?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26pca t%3d35%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dtho*%26gsfn_x%3d1% 26gsln%3dtho*m*s*n%26gsln_x%3d1%26msbdy%3d1826%26m sbdy_x%3d1%26msrpn__ftp%3dLancashire%252c%2bEnglan d%26msrpn%3d5271%26msrpn_PInfo%3d7-%257c0%257c0%257c3257%257c3251%257c0%257c0%257c0%2 57c5271%257c0%257c0%257c%26msrpn_x%3dXO%26msrpn__f tp_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d_F0003888%257c_F0003888_x%26db Only%3d_F00032F6%257c_F00032F6_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0003 03E%257c_F000303E_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303D%257c_F000 303D_x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006%257c_83004006_x%26dbOn ly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032DB_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303 A%257c_F000303A_x%26dbOnly%3d_F0003039%257c_F00030 39_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%257c_F00027B9_x%26uidh%3 dvm5&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
14 Kennedy Street, Ancoats, Manchester
Samuel Thompson Head Mar 54 Turner of Iron Scotland
Susan Thompson Wife M 54 House Keeper Lancs Hollingdon(?)
John Thompson Son U 27 Turner of Iron Manchester
Thos Thompson Son U 25 Machine Maker(?) "
James Thompson Son U 21 Do "
Edward Thompson Son to Head U 19 Warehouse Aprentice Manchester
William Thompson Son U 17 " " "
Samuel Thompson Son U 15 School "
kiterunner
15-09-13, 16:20
This must be Ellen Walter and her family in 1841 but the head of the family is either Francis or Frances with age 50 written in the male column, occupation I for Independent:
1841 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8978/LANHO107_573_574-0061/6069574?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1841%26h%3d6069574%26ti%3d 5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3dpt_t995612_ p-1965142953_kpidz0q3d-1965142953z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t995612_p-1965142953_kpidz0q3d-1965142953z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
Francis Walter 50 I Y
Sarah " 25 Dress Maker Y
Mary " 20 Straw M Y
Susan " 15 Dress M Y
Ellen " 15 " Y
Ann " 11 Y
Catherine " 20 Do N
James " 9 Y
The public tree on ancestry links to this and it also has links to Frances Walter in 1851 and 1861 with son James whose age matches to the above. In 1851 Frances is married and in 1861 she is a widow. The tree also links to James's baptism where his father is John, a shear maker. Ellen Louisa and Ann's baptisms are on the same image.
baptisms (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2965/40366_294614-00056/73736?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchesterbaptismscathedral%2 6h%3d73736%26ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26 ssrc%3dpt_t995612_p-1955643679_kpidz0q3d-1955643679z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t995612_p-1955643679_kpidz0q3d-1955643679z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
The tree doesn't have a link to John Walter on any census, or a date for his death.
There is this in the London Gazette from 1828:
John Walter, formerly of Mosley, Lancashire, afterwards of Saddleworth, Yorkshire, Shear-Maker and Grinder, afterwards also a Publican in Queen-Street, Salford, Lancashire, and late a Fustian-Shearer in Queen-Street aforesaid.
I think it is a list of people imprisoned as debtors, but I got to it via Google and can't view the previous page to check without going to the London Gazette site and searching all over again, might do that later.
kiterunner
15-09-13, 16:34
Lancs BMD has a death for a John Walter 1853 Saint George sub-district, Manchester, age 60. Jul-Sep quarter on FreeBMD. I can't find a burial, but maybe he was buried in a municipal cemetery.
I'm thinking we might need to look for all of the Walter family on the 1851 census to see if Ellen Louisa turns out to be with any of them. But it might take a while, especially since the Manchester part of the 1851 census was water-damaged. Though hopefully most of them will be linked to from that ancestry tree.
kiterunner
15-09-13, 18:46
The public tree on ancestry has Mary Walter marrying a James Smylie and has a link to them in 1851, no Ellen.
Catherine Walter marries a William Littlejohn Dowie (or variant of that name) in 1845 but the tree does not link to them in 1851. They have a son Walter William Dowie baptised in Manchester 15 May 1850 (from FamilySearch) and in 1861 Catherine is the wife of a Joseph Butler, with son Walter W Dowie age 11, with the name Dowie crossed out and Do for Butler written over it.
I can't find these people on the 1851 census at the moment, but maybe they and Ellen are in the bit that was too damaged to be filmed.
kiterunner
15-09-13, 19:02
Susan Walter marries a William Fletcher 25 May 1845 at Eccles, Lancashire. He is full age, bachelor, a book-keeper, residence Pendleton, father Robert Fletcher, manufacturer. Witnesses William Tickler (or Ticklee?) and Thomas Gorse.
marriage on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2962/40365_293611-00312/8653727?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3d%26gsln%3dwalter %26sx%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__dat e%3d0%26f7%3d%26f8%3d%26rg_f9__date%3d%26rs_f9__da te%3d0%26f12%3d%26f18%3d%26f19%3d%26f15%3djohn%26f 16%3dwalter%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3dmanchester marriagescro%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss %3drfs%26gst%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
The public tree on ancestry doesn't have a link to them on any censuses or any further info.
Here are the Fletchers in 1851 but no Ellen with them:
1851 ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/30859_A008155-00078/11686992?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dsus*%26gsln%3dfl etcher%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4%3d%26f18__n%3d %26f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011_ _date%3d0%26f27%3d%26f14%3d%26f15%3d%26_8000C002%3 d%26_80008002%3d%26_80018002%3dwil*%26f7%3d%26f8%3 d%26f9%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26ti %3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3drfs%26gst%3d%2 6so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
The Dowie's were witnesses at Ellen and Isaac's wedding. Ellen might well have been with them, esp if her marriage broke down (or if Isaac died, which I think might be unlikely!)
kiterunner
15-09-13, 19:15
Sarah Walter married an Emanuel Nelson 2 Mar 1843 at Manchester Cathedral. Her father's occupation is given as Cutter, but it looks to be the right family because two of the witnesses are Alicia Walter (Mary's middle name) and James Smylie. The third witness is a Roger Johnson.
marriage on ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2967/40366_293741-00974/1171274?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchestermarriagescathedral% 26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26r ank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dang s-g%26gsfn%3dsarah%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln%3dwalter%26gs ln_x%3d1%26msgdy%3d1851%26msgdy_x%3d1%26msfng0%3dj ohn%26msfng0_x%3d1%26msfns0%3dwalter%26msfns0_x%3d 1%26cpxt%3d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dvm5%26msg dp%3d10%26cp%3d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
This is the Nelsons in 1851 but they haven't got an Ellen with them either:
1851 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8860/30859_A008144-00074/11653943?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fMS_AdvCB%3d1%26db%3duki1851%26rank %3d1%26new%3d1%26so%3d3%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26pca t%3d35%26gss%3dms_r_db%26gsfn%3dem*n*l%26gsfn_x%3d 1%26gsln%3dnelson%26gsln_x%3d1%26dbOnly%3d_F000388 8%257c_F0003888_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032F6%257c_F00032 F6_x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303E%257c_F000303E_x%26dbOnly %3d_F000303D%257c_F000303D_x%26dbOnly%3d_83004006% 257c_83004006_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00032DB%257c_F00032DB _x%26dbOnly%3d_F000303A%257c_F000303A_x%26dbOnly%3 d_F0003039%257c_F0003039_x%26dbOnly%3d_F00027B9%25 7c_F00027B9_x%26uidh%3dvm5%26mssng0%3dsarah%26mssn g0_x%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
I was hoping Ellen might turn up as a witness on a sibling's marriage using the surname Thompson, but no luck there, not even on Catherine's second marriage:
marriage (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2967/40366_293760-00163/1308278?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dmanchestermarriagescathedral% 26so%3d2%26pcat%3dROOT_CATEGORY%26MS_AdvCB%3d1%26r ank%3d1%26new%3d1%26MSAV%3d2%26msT%3d1%26gss%3dang s-g%26gsfn_x%3d1%26gsln_x%3d1%26msfng0%3djohn%26msfn g0_x%3d1%26msfns0%3dwalter%26msfns0_x%3d1%26cpxt%3 d1%26catBucket%3drstp%26uidh%3dvm5%26cp%3d11%26mss ng0%3djoseph%26mssng0_x%3d1%26mssns0%3dbutler%26ms sns0_x%3d1&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Wow Kate you have been hard at work. I did find the Walters family and most of the baptisms. Susan may be Suzanne which means there is a Frances as well but John's occupation was a victuller which is wrong.
Walter William Dowie/Butler goes back to Dowie as I found him on the 1871 census with Mum as Butter, but I did find the Butler marriage. Ellen does not live with Catherine.
I have to get the kids ready for school but will look at everything properly when I get back.
kiterunner
15-09-13, 21:53
Susan may be Suzanne which means there is a Frances as well but John's occupation was a victuller which is wrong.
Look at the end of post #24 - he was a publican at one time.
This could be Thomas in 1851:
Thos Thompson Son U 25 Machine Maker(?)
I had seen that but wasn't sure. At least you are unsure with me so I feel more confident now.
I'm thinking we might need to look for all of the Walter family on the 1851 census to see if Ellen Louisa turns out to be with any of them. But it might take a while, especially since the Manchester part of the 1851 census was water-damaged. Though hopefully most of them will be linked to from that ancestry tree.
I'll start searching for what you haven't found yet.
Look at the end of post #24 - he was a publican at one time.
I had missed that when I skimmed before. That is great news and I'll search the gazette for him as well. Thank for everything you have found so far.
I've been going through each child of John and Frances Walter. I haven't finished but I can find no sign of Ellen in the census or of her marriage.
Did you find the Dowie family in 1851?
kiterunner
16-09-13, 10:00
I suspect there is no marriage between Thomas Thompson and Ellen Louisa to find.
Did you find the Dowie family in 1851?
Yes, Just Catherine, her husband and 2 children.
I suspect there is no marriage between Thomas Thompson and Ellen Louisa to find.
I think you are right.
I have searched through years and pages without finding that marriage Kit. I think perhaps they may have been living in sin.
Libby wash your mouth out. I was going to email an elderly relative and ask him how he knows Ellen's surname. I think that branch may be upset if they know what you said. I don't know him but when I say who my FIL is he will know my OH. I wish I could remember if I had met him though.
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