View Full Version : Who Do You Think You Are - Lesley Sharp 14th Aug
kiterunner
13-08-13, 22:05
At 9 p.m. on BBC1, and then repeated on Thursday night at 10:35.
maggie_4_7
14-08-13, 18:59
Oooh I like Lesley Sharpe she is a great actress, I do know she was adopted as a small baby.
Oooh I like Lesley Sharpe she is a great actress, I do know she was adopted as a small baby.
Full Monty!
maggie_4_7
14-08-13, 19:49
Full Monty!
Yes but she`s been in lots of programs on TV.
kiterunner
14-08-13, 21:06
Episode synopsis:
Lesley Sharp was born in Manchester in 1960, and she was adopted at the age of six weeks. She was just told when she was young that she was given up for adoption because her mother wasn't able to look after her. Her adoptive mother died when Lesley was 15 and her adoptive father, Jack, died more recently. Lesley traced her birth mother Elsie Makinson 22 years ago but had not found out much about her birth father before this programme.
Lesley's birth mother had told her that she had an affair with a work colleage who was married with children and that she got pregnant by accident. The man's name was Norman Patient. Lesley once came across a newspaper photo of him playing bowls and Elsie confirmed that he was her birth father.
Lesley got a copy of her original adoption file from an adoption charity. Her original name is shown as Karen. The records show that Norman had a son and daughter with his wife, and the reason for the baby being given up for adoption is shown as "for financial reasons and best for the baby".
Lesley went to Manchester and met her birth mother's sisters Margaret and Nancy. They remembered that Elsie's pregnancy was kept a secret from the neighbours etc and that because she received no support from Norman, she went into a mother and baby home to give birth and gave the baby up for adoption before returning home. They don't think that Elsie saw Norman again, although Margaret worked as his secretary for a while without knowing that he was the father of Elsie's baby.
Lesley went to meet her half-brother and sister, Tommy and Doris, Norman's children. Norman never told them about her. Tommy was 20 and Doris 21 when Lesley was born, Doris having married in Feb 1960 when she was pregnant with her son Stephen who was born in August of that year. Lesley was shown a photo of Norman with baby Stephen, and a letter commending Norman for stopping the bus that he was driving to help a blind man cross the road.
Tommy had received a letter in the 1990's from a distant cousin John Patient of Great Easton in Essex, who has done a lot of research on the Patient family tree. Lesley went to meet John at Tilty church in Essex. Lesley and John share a 2xg-great-grandfather Charles Patient. Lesley's grandfather and great-grandfather on this line were both named Thomas Patient.
John showed Lesley the marriage certificate of Charles Patient and Hannah Bush from 16 Oct 1847. They married at Tilty church, and John also showed Lesley the baptism record of Hannah's son William Bush who was baptised on the 14th Oct in the same year, with Hannah's occupation shown as "Single Woman".
On the 1871 census Charles and Hannah are living in Great Easton, with ten children including William Patient, relationship to Charles shown as "son". However on William's marriage to Charlotte Rawlings on Oct 21 1871, his name is given as William Bush, although father's name is given as Charles Patient.
On the 1911 census Charles is aged 85, and has a wife Jane, aged 72, with their marriage shown to have lasted for 22 years. They also have Charles's nephew George Patient age 59 with them, and several boarders including two young boys, George Maybury born in Sheffield, and William George Keen born in London.
Lesley visited Essex Record Office to look at the log books for Great Easton School, which included several mentions of Dr Barnardo's children. She then visited the Ragged School Museum in East London where she met the Barnardo's archivist who showed her admission records for the two boys but was unable to show her the full records as she was not a relative.
Lesley looked at online passenger lists and found a record showing that 12 year old George Maybury arrived in Quebec, Canada, on the 23 Jun 1912, having sailed from Liverpool in a group of Barnardo's boys. She then went to Liverpool to meet an historian who gave her a phone number for George Maybury's grandson, also called George Maybury. She phoned him and arranged to meet him in Toronto. They went to Dresden in South West Ontario, to see where George was sent to work when he arrived in Canada. Barnardo's sent George's full records to his grandson and he showed these to Lesley. They included photos of George with his brother and sister when he was first taken in by Barnardo's, and of him in Essex when he was living with the Patients. There was also a report of a site visit to the Patients which said the boys were being well looked after.
George's grandson told Lesley that his grandfather had married Mary Martha Jane,the farmer's daughter at the last farm that he was sent to by Barnardo's.
Olde Crone
14-08-13, 21:11
What an extremely strange programme. I kept thinking I had wandered into Long Lost Family by mistake.
The usual huge leaping assumptions.
OC
What an extremely strange programme. I kept thinking I had wandered into Long Lost Family by mistake.
The usual huge leaping assumptions.
OC
Agree.
Particularly the facts about Charles Patient.
We have no real way of knowing if he was William's birth father or not. Perhaps they didn't know! He may or may not have been courting his Mother when she was heavily pregnant. He may have hated children! The list could go on and on.
I did enjoy it though.
Charles died in 1915, aged 88.
I thought it was very padded out - all of what she found could easily have fitted into a half hour programme.
kiterunner
14-08-13, 21:34
It was very odd how so much of the programme focussed on the Barnardo's boys, and as has been said, so many assumptions!
Very odd programme, seemed to have no real direction to me.
kiterunner
14-08-13, 21:50
Looking at the BMD indexes, it seems that Norman Patient and his wife had a son Norman born in 1936 who died as a baby. Norman's marriage is listed in the Jul-Sep quarter of 1936, with the baby's birth and death both registered in the Oct-Dec quarter of that year. Interesting given what Doris said about her father's reaction when she fell pregnant before her marriage!
Olde Crone
14-08-13, 21:50
Agree, no direction, all about people who were not related to her (the Barnardos boys) and at the end, she said that Norman Patient didn't feel like her father, her adoptive father felt like her father! I couldn't help wondering why she bothered.
Everyone seemed to think it was a wonderful thing that the Maybury boy had been parcelled off to Canada. Wonder how HE felt about that, as he appears to have had a happy foster placement with the Patients.
OC
kiterunner
14-08-13, 21:55
Everyone seemed to think it was a wonderful thing that the Maybury boy had been parcelled off to Canada. Wonder how HE felt about that, as he appears to have had a happy foster placement with the Patients.
Yes, I couldn't help feeling that if the programme-makers and Lesley weren't trying to show Barnardo's in such a positive light, they could easily have followed the line of how awful it was to send young children away so far away from everyone and everything that they knew.
I saw something in the records that Lesley was shown about the foster mother (presumably Jane Patient) being ill with a kidney stone? Maybe she and Charles were unable to look after the boys any more for health / age reasons?
kiterunner
14-08-13, 22:06
Great Easton and Tilty are listed among the missing pieces of the 1851 census, so no use looking for the Patients on that one.
Thanks for that, Kate.
Did anyone notice where William Bush/Patient got married? I felt if he married in a parish where it was known he was born before his mother married then the vicar might well insist he use his birth name for the marriage, but recording Charles Patient as his father would suggest Charles was more likely to be the biological father than not, rather than the other way about as was suggested in the programme.
kiterunner
14-08-13, 22:13
Here are the Patients in 1861, at Great Easton:
1861 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/8767/ESSRG9_1117_1120-0632/16927587?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dcha*%26gsln%3dpa t*nt%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4%3d%26f18%3d%26f1 2__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__date %3d0%26f27%3d%26f14%3d%26f15%3d%26_8000C002%3d%26_ 80008002%3d%26_80018002%3d%26f7%3d%26f8%3d%26f9%3d %26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3duki1861%26ti%3d5538%2 6ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3dmp-uki1861%26gst%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Charles Patient Head Mar 34 Ag Lab Thaxted Essex
Hannah Do Wife Mar 31 Tilty Do
William Do Son Un 13 Ag Lab Great Easton Essex
George Do Son 11 Ag Lab Do Do
John Patient Son 9 Ag Lab Great Easton Essex
Charles Do Son 7 Scholar Do Do
Eliza Do Daur 5 Do Do
Fred Do Son 1 Do Do
Thomas Do Son 7 Scholar Do Do.
Olde Crone
14-08-13, 22:13
It seems a bit foolish to place a 4 year old with an 80 year old man. It's going to be a near miracle if that man is still alive by the time the foster child is of working age/an adult.
Not a word of criticism of Dr Barnardos, not a mention of British Home children and what very often happened to them in their new placements.
OC
kiterunner
14-08-13, 22:23
Did anyone notice where William Bush/Patient got married? I felt if he married in a parish where it was known he was born before his mother married then the vicar might well insist he use his birth name for the marriage, but recording Charles Patient as his father would suggest Charles was more likely to be the biological father than not, rather than the other way about as was suggested in the programme.
There is a public tree on ancestry which says the marriage was at Great Easton. Also he seems to have kept using the surname Bush after his marriage.
kiterunner
14-08-13, 22:38
Lesley's grandfather Thomas Charles Patient's army papers are on ancestry:
army records (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1219/30973_183313-00678/1533608?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dbritisharmyservice%26h%3d1533 608%26ti%3d5538%26indiv%3dtry%26gss%3dpt%26ssrc%3d pt_t42656950_p19815390006_kpidz0q3d19815390006z0q2 6pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&ssrc=pt_t42656950_p19815390006_kpidz0q3d1981539000 6z0q26pgz0q3d32768z0q26pgplz0q3dpid&backlabel=ReturnRecord#?imageId=30973_183313-00680)
He got married to Margaret George 24 Nov 1906 and their first son Thomas was born 14th May 1907, according to the army records.
Margaret in Burton
15-08-13, 02:30
I also thought it an odd programme. Kept annoying OH with my comments and tutting.
I wonder what happened to the other Maybury children, the elder boy and the girl? They never mentioned what happened to the other child the Patient's fostered. I know they said he didn't seem to be on a passenger list.
I didn't like it either.
A lost opportunity to look at the wholesale exporting of expensive to maintain children as cheap labour for the colonies.
A lost opportunity to look at the wholesale exporting of expensive to maintain children as cheap labour for the colonies.
Yes, Gwynne. It was a sugar-coated interpretation. The children were a source of cheap labour in the UK, too.
George Maybury was 11 in 1911 (b Sheffield) and four in 1903. They said when he was four he had a sister, Elsie aged 7 and brother William aged 10. His mother was supposed to have died in childbirth in September 1901.
Can anyone find this family in 1901?
In the 1901 census, there are two boys boarding with Charles Patient (living at Duton Hill, Tilty).
William Dines, 8, birthplace not known
George Gill, 7, birthplace not known
Interestingly, there are three other pairs of boys boarding with families in Duton Hill whose birthplaces are also recorded as not known.
Harry Davie, 5
Cecil Frank Simpson, 3
Louis Dean, 7
Albert Elshaw, 7
Edwin Alexander Mattock (?), 8
Frederick Charles Mitchell, 8
I'm not familiar with Barnados policies, but this doesn't look like Mr Patience came forward to volunteer to foster destitute children out of the kindness of his heart. It seems as if several families were in one area were recruited by Barnados to take on the children.
George Maybury was 11 in 1911 (b Sheffield) and four in 1903. They said when he was four he had a sister, Elsie aged 7 and brother William aged 10. His mother was supposed to have died in childbirth in September 1901.
Can anyone find this family in 1901?
1915 enlistment papers for William Mabury, farmer, born in Sheffield. Next of kin, Elsie Maybury, sister, living in Brussels, Ontario.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1086/gpc010-492373a/591437?backurl=http%253a%252f%252fsearch.ancestry. co.uk%252fcgi-bin%252fsse.dll%253fdb%253dcansoldierwwi%2526so%25 3d2%2526pcat%253dROOT_CATEGORY%2526rank%253d1%2526 new%253d1%2526MSAV%253d1%2526msT%253d1%2526gss%253 dangs-g%2526gsfn%253dElsie%2526gsfn_x%253dNN%2526gsln%25 3dMaybury%2526gsln_x%253dXO%2526gskw%253dSheffield %2526gskw_x%253d1%2526cpxt%253d1%2526catBucket%253 drstp%2526uidh%253dfpy%2526cp%253d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults
Oh here are some answers!
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ONTARIO/2008-06/1214162114
Here they are in 1901:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/YRKRG13_4381_4383-1035/27916461?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3delsi e%26gsln%3dhancock%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4%3d %26f18%3d%26f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_ 81004011__date%3d0%26f27%3d%26f14%3d%26f15%3d%26_8 000C002%3d%26_80008002%3d%26_80018002%3d%26f7%3d%2 6f8%3d%26f9%3d%26gskw%3dsheffield%26prox%3d1%26db% 3duki1901%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d2%26h%3d27916461%26recoff%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Emma's death is recorded for Sept Q 1901.
I don't know why I needed to find that?!
According to the public trees on Ancestry, Emily/Emma's maiden name was Sonderson.
1915 enlistment papers for William Mabury, farmer, born in Sheffield. Next of kin, Elsie Maybury, sister, living in Brussels, Ontario.
Maybury? Canada? Barnados boy? World War 1? Bells are ringing. I've watched a TV show about the family before. Off to investigate.
Maybury? Canada? Barnados boy? World War 1? Bells are ringing. I've watched a TV show about the family before. Off to investigate.
I was right! The TV show I remembered was The Trench Detectives.
Here's an article from Canada about the episode. It's the same George who was on last night's WDYTYA. Ha!
Finding the fallen
By Anthony Dixon, Daily Observer
Saturday, November 8, 2008
When Pembroke resident George Maybury sits down on Nov. 11 to watch the History Television program Finding the Fallen, he will be seeing a familiar story -his family's.
This Remembrance Day marks the 90th anniversary of the end of the First World War and History Television is commemorating the occasion with the first in a new series of eight hour-long documentary episodes in the Finding the Fallen series. In each episode, archeologists, forensics experts, historians and genealogists unearth the history and personal stories that have been buried under the bloody battlefields of France and Belgium for the last 90 years.
During an archeological dig of a trench mortar pit, key to the Allied taking of "Hill 70" in France, an artifact was found that was traced to William Maybury, the great uncle of current Pembroke resident George Maybury.
"Through the artifact, they traced back to the regiment, to my great uncle, the story of this English Canadian that had gone over to fight for King and country," Mr. Maybury said.
The episode about Will Maybury is titled Barnardo Boy as he along with his little sister Elsie and later his youngest brother George (George Maybury's grandfather) were Barnardo children, sent to Canada as orphans.
Mr. Maybury is in possession of what he calls the family "tickle trunk" -a small chest filled with old photographs, and photocopies of documents relating to the lives of his ancestors.
He remembers his own father George (he is the third in the line of George Mayburys) originally possessing the "tickle trunk," which was then only two shoe boxes crammed full of items. George's father sat him down when he was 14 or 15, took out the shoe boxes and started to explain the family history. But, it is only now as an adult that curiosity has taken a hold of him, and he has begun to casually research his lineage himself.
"Over the years I've gone on the Internet and snooped here and there," he said.
The call from the History Television came out of the blue. The show's producers tracked George down through his brother David.
Over a two-month period, George was interviewed several times. He also dutifully scanned and emailed many of his family photos of Will for the television show.
While he knew the basics of the story, he has learned a lot about his family through the research done for the television show and he is expecting a few surprises Tuesday when the show airs. He still does not know what the artifact was that started all this in the first place.
"It's kind of cool and it catches you totally off guard," he said. "Now when somebody asks me about my family, I can just hand them the DVD. This is one story out of 1000s they could have picked to do. There was quite a number of British Home Children but it was luck of the draw. They found an artifact with personal information in a mortar pit that led them to Will Maybury," Mr. Maybury said.
According to Mr. Maybury's research, his grandfather George, great aunt Elsie and great uncle Will were dropped off at Barnardo Homes as orphans.
Their mother Emma died in childbirth and their father, listed on documents as putative, died of dropsy.
Their half-siblings said they could not afford to take care of the three children and took them to Barnardo Homes.
The Barnardo Homes sent thousands of children like the Maybury kids to Canada under contracts signed with farmers.
The children weren't adopted, but were contracted as farm hands to Canadian farmers for $20 a year.
Will, 10, and Elsie, seven, were shipped to Canada in 1903 and were immediately separated. Both went to different farms in southwestern Ontario.
George was considered too young at the time to come over. He did come to Canada when he was 13 after receiving a British education.
"A lot of the story is these three trying to unite and that here's this guy William, abandon by his family, abandon by his country (shipped to Canada) who, when called upon, goes to fight for King and country and doesn't come home," Mr. Maybury said.
There isn't a lot of detail on the lives of the children as they grew up other than they moved around a lot. Mr. Maybury has postcards from Oakner, Manitoba and Arcona, Ontario.
He believes that William was reunited with Elsie in 1912 and later on Elsie was reunited with George, but he doesn't believe the three were ever reunited together before Will died in battle at Ypres.
"Elsie continually wrote to the Barnardo Homes to try and get George moved closer to them, but it appears the brothers never met again,"Mr. Maybury said.
George Maybury (Will and Elsie's brother) died in 1926, less than a year after his son George (the second) was born.
Mr. Maybury said he tried to trackdown Elsie but all he knows is that she got married, had two children and lived in Toronto for a while.
"That's it. I believe though that she is the one who tried to keep the family together. When pictures were taken, she wouldn't just write a name on the back -she put a story to keep the context of what was going on. We lose track around the Second World War although both of her sons went off to war," Mr. Maybury said.
Mr. Maybury said he hadn't had a lot of contact with his own siblings David and Janet but the experience with History Television has changed that.
"The family all came together here in Pembroke," he said.
Finding the Fallen season two Barnardo Boy episode airs on Nov. 11 at 1 p. m. and again at 8 p. m. on History Television.
All that talk about what a wonderful man Charles was, taken almost entirely from two census records really got on my nerves. Obviously he may have been lovely, but no one seemed to consider the desire to foster may have come from his second wife, even if Charles was the one to sign the papers.
Jane Boultell b 1838, married Joseph Parkin in 1852. She married George Perry in 1860 and Charles Patient in 1888. Looking at the censuses only (!!) she doesn't appear to have any surviving children from her marriages, so she might well have wanted to foster.
kiterunner
15-08-13, 09:00
Here is some unseen footage from Lesley's episode:
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/footage/14478
Oooh, nice one Shona! In last night's programme they said the Barnardo docs had been posted to George whilst Lesley was making her way to Canada (and they implied that it was only now that Barnardo's had made the decision to allow the docs to go to the nok)!
kiterunner
15-08-13, 09:02
All that talk about what a wonderful man Charles was, taken almost entirely from two census records really got on my nerves. Obviously he may have been lovely, but no one seemed to consider the desire to foster may have come from his second wife, even if Charles was the one to sign the papers.
It reminded me of Fern Britton going on about how lovely her ancestor Friend Carter was on "Secrets from the Workhouse", with about as much evidence.
It reminded me of Fern Britton going on about how lovely her ancestor Friend Carter was on "Secrets from the Workhouse", with about as much evidence.
Yes, that's true!
Charles and Jane Patient were both reg for death in Q4 1915.
Charles and Jane had two boarding children in 1901 as well as in 1911.
Oooh, nice one Shona! In last night's programme they said the Barnardo docs had been posted to George whilst Lesley was making her way to Canada (and they implied that it was only now that Barnardo's had made the decision to allow the docs to go to the nok)!
Exactly! Recalling the Trench Detectives episode, they had a trunk full of documents and photographs of the three children.
I enjoyed that series as it combines archaeology, forensics and family history.
Moving back to Charles Patient, one of the two boarders on the 1901 census, William Dines, was also sent to Canada (Liverpool to Quebec) on 16 July 1903, when he was 10, along with lots of other boys.
Charles and Jane had two boarding children in 1901 as well as in 1911.
See post 24, Merry. There were eight boys boarding with Charles and his neighbours - all with birthplaces recorded as not known.
Ann from Sussex
15-08-13, 09:23
There was no mention of the trauma and cruelty British Home children often experienced in Canada - http://canadianbritishhomechildren.weebly.com/ - or the fact that they were often viewed as cheap labour, not much more than slaves. However, I was interested in the information about fostering Barnardo's boys with older people, as my own great grandparents had two staying with them on the 1901 census when they were aged 60 and 61 which I always thought was a bit old to be doing that. The children were presumably brothers since they have the same surname, were aged 2 and 3 and both of them had their birthplaces listed as "Dr Barnardo's Home". I'm not sure if children were actually born in the homes but it tells me why these two (unrelated to my family) children were listed at my great grandparents' farm. It also explains a photo I have of my great grandparents, my grandmother aged about 20 (which would have been in 1901) and two small boys who no-one in the family recognised, outside the farmhouse. They must be these two Barnardo's boys. In the case of my great grandparents, I think it that they truly loved children and would have been kind foster parents. They brought up 12 of their own, took in and brought up two illegitimate grandchildren plus my father who, whilst not illegitimate, was deserted by his father as a baby and not much cared for by his mother. He adored his grandparents and said they gave him the only love he ever experienced until he met my mother. Without that first-hand testimony I would not have made any assumptions, one way or the other about them though! And it has never occured to me to try and find anythng out about the Barnardo's boys. Having more or less exhausted my own family research, perhaps I should start on them now!
I'm not familiar with Barnados policies, but this doesn't look like Mr Patience came forward to volunteer to foster destitute children out of the kindness of his heart. It seems as if several families were in one area were recruited by Barnados to take on the children.
I also wasn't convinced by the idea that Barnardos wanted older foster parents because of their life experience! If that was the case than Mrs P might not have been considered suitable if she hadn't brought up a family before. More likely they took who they could get as long as they were superficially OK.
Perhaps Barnardos recruited via the local C of E vicar? If he was helpful then they would farm out several children to one parish as this would be cheaper than sending just one or two to a particular village.
Without that first-hand testimony I would not have made any assumptions, one way or the other about them though!
Exactly!!
I would have felt happier about the assumptions made about Charles if it was known that George had spoken of his childhood in their home, but George died young so he was probably never ready to reminisce.
I was waiting for a photo of Charles P to see if he had "the nose" but nothing materialised!! lol (I have a big nose, but no Essex ancestors!!)
Ann from Sussex
15-08-13, 09:35
"Perhaps Barnardos recruited via the local C of E vicar? If he was helpful then they would farm out several children to one parish as this would be cheaper than sending just one or two to a particular village. "
I later found out that there was a Barnardo's home in a village close to where my great grandparents lived in Kent and that boys were sent to it from all over the country. I found this out from someone at my genealogy group whose father had been sent there from Manchester as a small boy. He had also been fostered by a local farming couple but in the 1920s.
There was no mention of the trauma and cruelty British Home children often experienced in Canada - http://canadianbritishhomechildren.weebly.com/ - or the fact that they were often viewed as cheap labour, not much more than slaves. However, I was interested in the information about fostering Barnardo's boys with older people, as my own great grandparents had two staying with them on the 1901 census when they were aged 60 and 61 which I always thought was a bit old to be doing that. The children were presumably brothers since they have the same surname, were aged 2 and 3 and both of them had their birthplaces listed as "Dr Barnardo's Home". I'm not sure if children were actually born in the homes but it tells me why these two (unrelated to my family) children were listed at my great grandparents' farm. It also explains a photo I have of my great grandparents, my grandmother aged about 20 (which would have been in 1901) and two small boys who no-one in the family recognised, outside the farmhouse. They must be these two Barnardo's boys. In the case of my great grandparents, I think it that they truly loved children and would have been kind foster parents. They brought up 12 of their own, took in and brought up two illegitimate grandchildren plus my father who, whilst not illegitimate, was deserted by his father as a baby and not much cared for by his mother. He adored his grandparents and said they gave him the only love he ever experienced until he met my mother. Without that first-hand testimony I would not have made any assumptions, one way or the other about them though! And it has never occured to me to try and find anythng out about the Barnardo's boys. Having more or less exhausted my own family research, perhaps I should start on them now!
This trailer for the Barnados Boy episode of the Trench Dectectives mentions the fact the children were often regarded as slaves.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFU_czqEdHo
There doesn't seem to be a download of be full episode, though.
I wonder if there was a reason they (apparently) didn't try to find other descendants of Charles P who might have known some personal info about him?
Olde Crone
15-08-13, 10:10
I would be more convinced about the saintliness of the fosterers if there had been a few girls dotted about. I'm afraid my cynical mind says that it was expedient to foster BOYS with farmers and expedient for farmers to foster them (not to mention the five bob a week allowance). Once the boys were nicely trained up to farming they could be shipped off to Canada.
That's not to say that the foster parents were NOT wonderful, perhaps they were, in which case even more cruel to take the children away from a loving home and send them to Canada.
The British Home Child policy was yet another shameful episode in our history. I know it was the making of a few children, who landed on their feet in Canada (and the other colonies) but mostly it was a recipe for utter misery, if not a lot worse.
OC
This has got me thinking about my family history.
My great-great grandmother, Priscilla Williamson, had two illegitimate children, which she kept, before marrying three times.
Her sister, Mary, died at the age of 35 in 1897, leaving her husband, coal miner James Falls, to care for their five children. Two years after Mary's death, he was found drowned in the River Leven in Methil.
The youngest four children were taken into the care of Quarrier Homes. One boy, George, was sent to work on a farm in Ayrshire when he was 14. His sister, Agnes, remained in Fife, where she married.
In 1904, the two youngest boys, John and Andrew, were transported to Canada on the Corinthian.
Alexa, the oldest girl, who wasn't taken into care because she was of working age, wrote to Quarrier's in 1911, asking for a contact address for her brothers as she was going to Canada.
I haven't traced this branch before, but following last night's WDYTYA, I'm going to see if I can find out more.
kiterunner
15-08-13, 12:12
Definitely sounds worth looking into, Shona. Let us know what you find out! And shout if you want help.
I wonder why WDYTYA didn't mention Norman Patient jr who died as a baby (see post #11). I would have thought it was quite significant to Norman sr? Or would it have messed up the story they wanted to tell?
kiterunner
15-08-13, 12:21
Also I think The Genealogist may have messed up again with their article on the episode as they say that Norman and his wife had four children including a daughter Ann, but I think that Doris was originally registered as Ann and then her name was changed, since the birth registration details match apart from an a on the end of the page number for Doris.
http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/featuredarticles/wdytya2013_sharp.php
(not to mention them giving the surname of the "other" Barnado's boy as Keeir)
I agree with you about Norman jr, Kate.
You said maybe it would mess up the story, but I don't think they needed to worry about that as they could still twist the story whichever way they liked!
The Genealogist are not doing very well with their articles, are they?!!
I agree with you about Norman jr, Kate.
You said maybe it would mess up the story, but I don't think they needed to worry about that as they could still twist the story whichever way they liked!
The Genealogist are not doing very well with their articles, are they?!!
The horrible layout and dreadful typefaces make their articles difficult to read - even if the facts were all correct.
Definitely sounds worth looking into, Shona. Let us know what you find out! And shout if you want help.
Will do. I'll post a new thread with the results.
kiterunner
15-08-13, 13:20
I found this in the British Newspaper Archive:
The Evening Telegraph (Angus), Tuesday March 20, 1934
MOTORISTS IN COURT AT CUPAR
Norman Patient, first-class aircraftsman, Royal Air Force (Training) Base, Leuchars, was fined 20s for drivng a motor cycle without a license on the road between Dairsie and Balmullo on 25th February.
Wondering whether it is the same Norman Patient? I can't find one on Scotland's People, and the others who I can see on the GRO indexes would be too young.
maggie_4_7
15-08-13, 13:44
It was a weird one. I did enjoy it though even with all the assumptions. I got a bit tearful at the beginning when her younger aunty was getting emotional. I can relate to hearing about a 'father' I never knew through the eyes of bystanders and the wreckage he left behind. I did feel this episode got to close to living people which is a big format change.
It might have been nice to do her dad Jack's family history instead!
I did think it was geared, and the whole stem of it around Lesley's personal history in terms of 'what happened to abandoned, orphaned and illegitimate children through the ages. It did give some insight into actually doing research but not nearly enough. I think that it was a mistake to focus on that theme but Minnie Drivers' one was the same but much more subtle regarding acting although a far more superior episode.
I dont think its a good idea. Has the producers and directors changed that much?
Do they think its more palatable for the general viewing population i.e. more 'reality' less facts and how to actually research bearing in mind they probably think that 90% percent of their viewers wouldn't do FH research they just want to watch 'something' on the box. I just wish they would go back to their old format of the earlier series!
maggie_4_7
15-08-13, 13:49
Will do. I'll post a new thread with the results.
Oh yes I would love to follow thread and perhaps help although with Merry and Kite on the case I will probably be left far behind :)
maggie_4_7
15-08-13, 13:58
This trailer for the Barnados Boy episode of the Trench Dectectives mentions the fact the children were often regarded as slaves.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFU_czqEdHo
There doesn't seem to be a download of be full episode, though.
It was bad that 'they' weren't more honest in this episode of WDYTYA about the fate of the children. Good if they struck lucky but most were bereft of love and support and worse. Cheap labour here and abroad but better than being 'destitute' they said.
I thought it a bit too close for comfort for her birth father's family especially with so many people probably still alive who knew him.
Also do wonder if the vicar demanded Charles marry the mother of his child - do the C of E have Kirk Sessions (they can make interesting reading). As he named Charles as his father on his wedding certificate even though he was using his mother's maiden name then I would have thought that would be the case.
Seems as though there was a steady supply of Barnardo's children for which they got 5/- each child which must have made it worth their while taking them in. I'm not sure that given Charles's age he had much input into the child's care or having spectacles - chances are the teacher at the school or the Barnardo's visitor supplied them Barnard's case notes might be enlightening.
When they went to Canada it really showed how desolate and isolated these farms were with few houses. OH's father was sent to Ontario as a 15 year old city boy by the Salvation Army. He spent 3 years (only records they had) working on different farms and we visited the places named in his case notes. Those wide open roads with nothing around was typical of what we saw driving for miles without seeing another car and that was 2 years ago, OH's dad came back after 13 years but where he was for the last 10 we have no idea as he died OH was small.
A programme which again highlights that you can find the facts but you can interpret them any way you choose!
I like Lesley Sharp and enjoyed her talking to her aunts and her half-siblings, but I didn't like the manipulation of "you were adopted by nice people and it's lovely that your blood ancestor also was a nice adopter, which cancels out the fact that your birth father wanted nothing to do with you".
Maybe we are too exposed to child abuse stories now, but I couldn't help wondering about the fate of many Barnado's children. Left to fend for yourself on the streets was grim, but being separated from your siblings, used as cheap labour, farmed out to people old enough to be your great-grandparents whose motives may be very murky was not a bed of roses either.
I wish the programme would be less "this MUST be true because I want it to be" and more "we don't know" but I suppose that doesn't make for good tv.
Olde Crone
16-08-13, 10:39
Nell
I think the fate of many British Home children is now well documented and it certainly was a very flawed scheme. Dr Barnardo started with good intention but as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and towards the end of his career DB was virtually kidnapping poor children from the streets simply because he saw poverty.
All that happened to BH children was unforgiveable but SORT OF understandable in the climate of the times. What I think is completely unforgiveable is how siblings were actively blocked from finding each other even when they were adults. That is sheer malice.
This programme missed a good opportunity to address the subject of BH children and the policy of forced migration. Many viewers will be totally unaware of this and of just how many children were affected.
OC
It carried on right into the 1960's too didn't it?
I was lucky not to have been sent too.
Ann from Sussex
16-08-13, 15:18
"Many viewers will be totally unaware of this and of just how many children were affected."
You only have to look at postings on the BBC's message board about this programme to see how this is the case. There are posters who say they found the story heart-warming and don't seem to want to believe what others are telling them about the part Barnardo's played in sending children to their fate in Canada. I wouldn't have known about it except for the fact that we had always been lead to believe that my grandfather was Canadian (he turned out to be American) and my search for him lead me into reading about British Home children, just in case he had been one.
Some comments about British Home Children from 19th-century Canadian politicians.
1891
'There are associations formed in England, Scotland and Ireland for bringing out to Canada what are called gutter children from the slums of England, Scotland and Ireland. Thousands are brought out by these organisations. I think this is scandalous and outrageous. It is ridiculous to allow this to go on. These people might as well send out small pox and typhoid fever. These are not only savages, but they are really all diseased savages.'
1894
'These are children dumped on Canadian soil, who, in my opinion, should not be allowed to come here at all. It is just the same as if garbage were thrown into your backyard and allowed to remain there.'
As the episode dealt with adoption, fostering and child transportation, a few hints and tips about how to research these issues would have been helpful.
Olde Crone
16-08-13, 21:03
Shona
With public attitudes like that, no wonder so many of the children were mistreated. The only thing which can be said in defence of the Canadian authorities is that the British authorities had exactly the same attitude and carelessness of the outcome.
I live in Cornwall and the last children to be sent from here to be "resettled" in Australia were sent in 1974.
OC
EDIT - I'm sure most of you on here already know these two books but if you don't, read them and weep.
Lost Children of the Empire
Empty Cradles.
Both were made into documentaries which triggered the (eventual) official apology from the British Government, which acknowledged the great harm this scheme had done.
Ann from Sussex
17-08-13, 16:28
Shona, even allowing for a difference in attitude between then and now, that is shocking.
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