Who Do You Think You Are - Una Stubbs 24th Jul

[kiterunner]

On BBC1 at 9 p.m. and repeated tomorrow at 10:45 p.m.

[Merry]

Thanks for the reminder, Kate.

[Shona]

Thanks. Looking forward to the new series...if not the voice over.

[kiterunner]

Episode summary:
Una Stubbs was born in Hertfordshire in 1937. She has a brother Paul and sister Clare. She lives in London, as do two of her three sons. She knew that on her mother's side of the family, her great-grandfather was Sir Ebenezer Howard, the architect of new towns such as Welwyn Garden City, but she knew nothing about her father's family.

Una's father Clarence Stubbs grew up in Yorkshire. Una visited her cousin Jocelyn Stackhouse, Jocelyn's husband David and another cousin Carol to find out about her father's parents.

Jocelyn and Carol knew their grandparents Arthur Stubbs and Annie Robinson well and showed Una some photos of them. They told her that the eldest son of the family, Albert (Jocelyn's father), was not Arthur's son, and that Clarence (Una's father) was born before Arthur and Annie's marriage, although he was Arthur's son. There were four other sons, including Alwyn (Carol's father), and a daughter.

Annie was born in 1884 and died in 1960.



Una went to York and got a copy of Annie Robinson's birth certificate from York Register Office. Annie's mother was Eliza Robinson but there was no father's name given. Una looked at the 1891 census where Annie was shown as the adopted daughter of blind basket maker Joe Horsfall and his wife Mary H. They also had a daughter Lydia. On the 1901 census Annie's surname is Horsfall and Mary is the head of the household.

Una was then given the birth certificate of Albert, who was born 12 Oct 1903 at York Workhouse to Annie Robinson, a domestic servant. No father's name was shown. Una visited the former workhouse building and was shown workhouse records including the workhouse birth register, and the admissions and discharges register which showed that Annie was admitted on the 29th Sep 1903 and discharged 2 Nov 1903, so she was just there to have her baby really.

The birth certificate for Una's father Clarence Watson Robinson showed that he was born on the 25th Oct 1908 at 50 Rose Street, York. No father's name is shown on his birth certificate either, but on the marriage certificate of Arthur and Annie dated a few months later, Arthur's residence is shown as 50 Rose Street and Annie's as 45 Rose Street. Arthur was 19 and Annie 23. Arthur's father was John Stubbs. Arthur adopted Annie's son Albert after the marriage.



On the 1911 census Arthur and Annie are at 21 Beaconsfield Street, York, which was later demolished in the slum clearances. Arthur's occupation is shown as confectioner, working for a chocolate manufacturer. This was Rowntree's. Coincidentally, Una was the "Rowntree's chocolate girl", appearing in adverts for their products, in her 20's, and visited the factory at that time. She revisited it in the programme, and met the company archivist who showed her a 1920 photo of the Central Works Council including Arthur, from the company magazine The CWM. She told Una that in 1929 Rowntree's had to sack 120 men because business was doing badly, and that Arthur was probably one of those men. A copy of the CWM stated that some of the men went to work in Welwyn Garden City.

Una then switched to looking at the family of her mother Angela Rawlinson. Angela's mother was Kathleen Howard, the eldest child of Sir Ebenezer Howard and his wife Lizzie.

Una went to the City of London to see a plaque which commemorates Ebenezer's birth. He was born on the 29th Jan 1850 at 62 Fore Street, the son of a baker, and was educated at a boarding school in the countryside. After leaving school he worked as a shorthand writer / stenographer / clerk, and by the time he reached his 30's he was working in this capacity at the House of Commons where he heard debates about the bad living conditions in the city.

In 1891 Ebenezer started to write a book about the idea of building a garden city. Una visited Hertfordshire Archives to see his papers, including the typescript of the book plus diagrams and designs that he drew for it. Ebenezer borrowed money to have it published in 1898, under the title "To-morrow: A Peaceful Path to Real Reform". He then toured the country giving illustrated lectures on the subject, and attracted enough investors to set up a company to build the first garden city at Letchworth in 1903. His wife Lizzie wrote him a letter in October 1904 about the fact that his work for the garden city meant that he was not earning an income to support the family. She died a month later.

In 1919 Ebenezer set out to try to create another garden city, Welwyn Garden City. Una met a local historian who showed her a letter written by a Norwegian investor to Seebohm Rowntree. Ebenezer managed to raise enough money from investors to buy the estate where the city would be built, and in 1921 he moved to Welwyn Garden City to live there himself. He was awarded the OBE in 1924, knighted in 1927, and died in 1928 leaving an estate of £800. His funeral was held in Letchworth.

Una went to see the house in Welwyn Garden City where Arthur and Annie Stubbs moved four years before Clarence married Angela.

[Margaret in Burton]

Una Stubbs really irritated me.

[ElizabethHerts]

I found the programme very interesting, with half of it being based in very familiar territory to me. Our local John Lewis is in Welwyn Garden City, and at the end of the programme they actually showed it as it was. The building was purpose-built as a large shop catering for the town. When we first lived here it was know as Welwyn Department Store.

I recognised Sue Flood from Hertfordshire Archives. I have spoken to her a couple of times and a friend of mine used to work with her there.

I thought that Sir Ebenezer Howard was an amazing man. I had always assumed he came from a privileged background, but that was not the case.
I was surprised that Una Stubbs didn't know more about him, however.

[ElizabethHerts]

In 1911 Ebenezer and his wife, Edith Annie, were living in Letchworth Garden City. They had been married 3 years, so he remarried after his first wife Lizzie?? died.

RG number: RG14
Piece: 7574
Reference: RG14PN7574 RG78PN371 RD136 SD1 ED5 SN83
Registration District: Hitchin
Sub District: Baldock
Enumeration District: 5
Parish: Letchworth
Address: The Branch Wilbury Road Letchworth
County: Hertfordshire

[ElizabethHerts]

In 1901 Ebenezer and Eliza are in Hackney:

Piece: 214
Folio: 23
Page: 38
Registration District: Hackney
Civil Parish: Hackney
Municipal Borough:
Address: 50, Durley Road, Hackney
County: London

They have children Kathleen, Edith, Arthur and Doris with them, and a servant.

[Shona]

I studied Ebenezer and the garden city movement as part of my degree.

[ElizabethHerts]

Sir Ebenezer's probate:

living at 5 Guessens-road, WGC
died 1 May 1928
Probate London 25 July to Arthur Cecil Howard shorthand writer Joseph Josiah Parkes Cole schoolmaster and Dame Edith Annie Howard.
Effects £788 14s 1d.

[Olde Crone]

Una Stubbs got on my nerves too!

I lived in WGC for a few years as a child and went to WGC High School.

I hoped they would go a bit further back with the Stubbs side, because I have Stubbs AND Robinson in my tree, from Cheshire though. Most Stubbs are ultimately related I think, from about the 1500s.

Not sure why they were so sure Arthur was Clarence's father, just because Arthur and Annie lived opposite each other (and did they really, or did they live together and the different numbers were just for propriety's sake?)

All in all though, I enjoyed this one, not least because it didn't include someone's war experiences!

OC

[ElizabethHerts]

Una Stubb's voice always annoys me, and her habit of wearing that silly hat, even indoors!

However, I enjoyed the content.

[kiterunner]

Clarence's middle name is Watson on FreeBMD and I thought it looked like Walker on the telly. When Windows Update has finished I will see if I can get a screenshot of it. On the marriage and indexes he has no middle name.

So until we find out where this middle name came from, I agree that we can't be sure Arthur is his father!

[JBee]

Yes I enjoyed the programme - I've got an Annie Robinson from Bradford, Yorkshire in one of my trees too but Robinson is such a hard name to research in Yorkshire.

[JBee]

Yes I saw Watson too and wondered whether it was the father's surname.

[kiterunner]

Arthur and Annie Stubbs in 1911:
1911 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_28422_0641_03/31198956?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dart*%26gsln%3dst ubbs%26sx%3d%26f2%3d%26f3%3d%26f8%3d%26rg_81004011 __date%3d%26rs_81004011__date%3d0%26f17%3d%26f18%3 d%26f23%3d%26f20%3d%26f21%3d%26_8000C002%3d%26_800 08002%3d%26_80018002%3dann*%26f15%3d%26f9%3d%26f22 %3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3d1911england%26ti%3 d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d10%26fsk%3dCIA ACTABuKN-47-&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

[JessBow]

I enjoyed it.

[kiterunner]

Yes I saw Watson too and wondered whether it was the father's surname.

Thanks, Julie. I've changed it to Watson in my summary now you've confirmed it.

[anne fraser]

I enjoyed it - not too much weeping. I assume that as Una had already met at least one of her Stubbs cousins she must have known a bit about her grandfather's background.

According to Wikipaedia Ebenezer Howard worked for a time as a reporter in Chicago.

[Olde Crone]

Oh gosh, I thought it said Clarence Walter on the cert?

OC

[JBee]

Now I will have to have a proper look on iplayer.

Reason I thought it was Watson is I have got a few with Watson as a middle name - not same tree - and it just jumped out at me.

[kiterunner]

Here is the screenshot, definitely Watson.

[Olde Crone]

Yes, I agree, definitely Watson - but you can see why I thought it was Walter (she says piteously).

Sooo...are we looking for a Clarence Watson then? Because, if Arthur Stubbs was Clarence's father, why didn't he marry Annie as soon as she was pregnant, or any time before the birth...why wait five months? Doesn't make sense to me, not without an explanation. As I can't see the 1911, does he distinguish between the two children or does he call them both his sons?

OC

[kiterunner]

Here are the Horsfalls in 1901, with Annie working as a confectionary packer:
1901 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/YRKRG13_4436_4437-0452/34056593?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3dannie%26gsln%3dh ors*f*l%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4%3d%26f18%3d%2 6f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__d ate%3d0%26f27%3d%26f14%3d%26f15%3d%26_8000C002%3d% 26_80008002%3dmary%26_80018002%3d%26f7%3d%26f8%3d% 26f9%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3duki1901%26ti%3 d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3drfs%26gst%3d%26s o%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Aren't ancestry giving free access to the 1911 census at the moment, OC? (though you have to log in)

Albert is "adopted son" and Clarence and Alwyn "son" on the 1911 census. Also Annie says she has 2 children of the marriage, both living.

[Merry]

Una did say she could see her father in Arthur when she was looking at the Rowntree group photo, but I suppose that might have been wishful thinking to an extent.

I enjoyed the programme, esp the first half. Una behaved exactly as I expected she would!

[Guinevere]

I enjoyed the programme. I also quite like Una, although I realise she isn't to everyone's taste.

[Shona]

Arthur Stubbs, age one, with parents John and Elizabeth, living in York in 1891.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/ERYRG12_3890_3892-0081/17979316?backurl=http%253a%252f%252fsearch.ancestr y.co.uk%252fcgi-bin%252fsse.dll%253findiv%253d1%2526db%253duki1891 %2526rank%253d1%2526new%253d1%2526MSAV%253d1%2526m sT%253d1%2526gss%253dangs-d%2526gsfn%253dArthur%2526gsfn_x%253dNN%2526gsln%2 53dStubbs%2526gsln_x%253dNN%2526msbdy%253d1890%252 6msbdy_x%253d1%2526cpxt%253d1%2526catBucket%253drs tp%2526uidh%253dfpy%2526msbdp%253d1%2526cp%253d11% 2526pcat%253d35%2526fh%253d8%2526h%253d17979316%25 26recoff%253d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord

Fern Street
John Stubbs, 25, paper hanger, b Bishop Auckland
Elizabeth Stubbs, 22, b York
Arthur Stubbs, 1, b York
Ernest Stubbs, 5 mo, b York

The family next door are named Watson.

There is a birth for Arthur Stubbs in York, Oct-Nov-Dec 1889.

Also in York in 1891 is Henry Stubbs and his wife, Emma, with three of their children born in Bishop Auckland - looks like this may be John's parents and Arthur's grandparents.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/ERYRG12_3890_3892-0062/17980498?backurl=http%253a%252f%252fsearch.ancestr y.co.uk%252fcgi-bin%252fsse.dll%253fdb%253duki1891%2526so%253d2%25 26pcat%253dROOT_CATEGORY%2526rank%253d1%2526new%25 3d1%2526MSAV%253d1%2526msT%253d1%2526gss%253dangs-g%2526gsfn%253dHenry%252b%2526gsfn_x%253dNN%2526gs ln%253dStubbs%2526gsln_x%253dNN%2526gskw%253dDarli ngton%2526gskw_x%253d1%2526cpxt%253d1%2526catBucke t%253drstp%2526uidh%253dfpy%2526cp%253d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

Newbiggin Street
Henry Stubbs, 53, cabinet maker, b Darlington
Emma E Stubbs, 40, b ???? Staffs (can't make it out)
Frederick Stubbs, 18, cabinet upholsterer, b Bishop Auckland
William Stubbs, 17, cabinet upholsterer, b Bishop Auckland
Ellen Stubbs, 12, school, b Bishop Auckland
Gertrude Stubbs, 9, school, b York
Margaret Stubbs, 7, school, b York
Emily Stubbs, 5, b York
Elizabeth Stubbs, 1, b York

[Shona]

Yes, John is Henry's son, but Emma is not his mother - unless she gave birth age 14.

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/ERYRG11_4719_4723-0850/25943785?backurl=http%253a%252f%252fsearch.ancestr y.co.uk%252fcgi-bin%252fsse.dll%253fdb%253duki1881%2526so%253d2%25 26pcat%253d35%2526rank%253d1%2526new%253d1%2526MSA V%253d1%2526msT%253d1%2526gss%253dangs-c%2526gsfn%253dHenry%2526gsfn_x%253dNN%2526gsln%25 3dStubbs%2526gsln_x%253dNN%2526gskw%253dDarlington %2526gskw_x%253d1%2526cpxt%253d1%2526catBucket%253 drstp%2526uidh%253dfpy%2526cp%253d11&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

1881 Newbiggin Street

Henry Stubbs, 43, cabinet and plain maker, b Darlington
Emma Stubbs, 29, b Portobella, Staffs
John Stubbs, 15, paper hanger and painter, b Bishop Auckland
Frederick Stubbs, 8, scholar, b Bishop Auckland
William Henry Stubbs, 7, scholar, b Bishop Auckland
Ellen Stubbs, 4, b Bishop Auckland
Clark John Robinson, 24, boarder, cabinet maker, b Bishop Auckland

[Merry]

I did look at the address where Annie was born (55 Penley, Grove St, St Maurice) in 1881 and 1891 in case there might be a possible connection to anyone called Robinson living there. In 1881 the head was Sarah Stead, lodging house keeper, unmarried 55, and in 1891 the property was empty and described as a lock-up shop, so the address would appear to be a dead end research-wise :(

[kiterunner]

Fern Street
John Stubbs, 25, paper hanger, b Bishop Auckland
Elizabeth Stubbs, 22, b York
Arthur Stubbs, 1, b York
Ernest Stubbs, 5 mo, b York

The family next door are named Watson.



I was wondering whether Watson was Arthur's mother's maiden name, but there is a likely marriage on FamilySearch 9 Jan 1889 St Olave's Marygate, York, John Stubbs 23, son of Henry Stubbs, and Elizabeth Brown, 20, daughter of Lot Brown.

[kiterunner]

And a likely marriage for those Watsons next door:
22 Feb 1881 Thornaby on Tees, Joseph Edward Watson married Selina Catherine Spencer.

[Nell]

I found the programme interesting because I live in Herts and know a bit about Letchworth GC and Welwyn GC. But I wasn't sure about some of the assumptions they made. I also wanted to know how Annie was able to keep her first illegitimate son Albert.

Still irked by the way if you are a celeb you just swan into a Register Office or Archive and have a dedicated helper ready to whisk documents out of an envelope for you!

[Shona]

Still irked by the way if you are a celeb you just swan into a Register Office or Archive and have a dedicated helper ready to whisk documents out of an envelope for you!

Too true!

[Shona]

Annie Robinson was described by Una's cousins, as being a spiky and unconventional woman who liked dancing and drinking. They reckoned that Una's mother felt that Annie was a bit 'lower' and that there was a 'stigma' associated with Annie because of her colourful life. This was why Una never met her grandparents, Annie and Arthur.

We know Annie was born on 11 November 1884 at 55 Persley (?) Grove Street in York to Eliza Robinson - no father was named on the birth cert.

I can't recall if anything was mentioned about what happened to Eliza. Did Eliza give up her daughter for adoption? Did she die? Was there a family connection with the Horsfalls who took in Annie?

In 1891, Annie is with her adoptive family - the Horsfalls. They mentioned that Joe was blind when they looked at the census for 1891, but didn't mention that there were two boarders in the household who were blind as well, plus a visitor who was blind. All three were basketmakers.

- Jesse Sutcliffe, boarder
- Thomas Wardle, boarder
- John Taylor, visitor

They lived in Townsend Street, next door to an inn.

In 1901, in addition to Mary Horsfall and Annie (by then Horsfall), the household also included a boarder named James Ward, 44, a blind basketmaker, and a five-year-old named, Arthur Ward.

Joe Horsfall was baptised on 27 June 1851, the son of a dyer named John Horsfall and his wife Lydia. He was born in Shelf, Halifax. In 1871, Joe is in the Wilberforce School for the blind in York - aged 19 and a brushmaker. Pupils stayed at the school until they were 20. Joe married Mary Hannah Harper in York, Jan-Feb-Mar 1875. Joe died in Apr-May-June 1900.

Annie gave birth to her first son, Albert, on 12 October 1903 in the Union Workhouse. She was 18 and her usual address was Eldon Street in York. She was a servant.

I wonder who looked after Albert? Did Annie? Or did she give him to Mary Horsfall?

Clarence Watson Robinson was born at 50 Rose Street - Arthur Stubb's home. Arthur and Annie married when Clarence was five months old. Are we certain that Arthur was Clarence's father?

[kiterunner]

Clarence Watson Robinson was born at 50 Rose Street - Arthur Stubb's home.

It is Arthur's residence on the marriage certificate, but I don't think we have seen anything yet to show when he moved there and how long he lived there. I could be wrong though. Sometimes the residence on the marriage cert is just for convenience or something like that.

[kiterunner]

I can't recall if anything was mentioned about what happened to Eliza. Did Eliza give up her daughter for adoption? Did she die? Was there a family connection with the Horsfalls who took in Annie?



I don't think they said what happened to Eliza.

There is a marriage on FamilySearch 17 Mar 1885 at St Thomas, York, Francis Fieldhouse, son of Francis Fieldhouse, married Eliza Robinson, daughter of Edward Robinson. I wonder whether it is the same Eliza. Of course it's a common name.

[kiterunner]

Hmm, FamilySearch has a baptism of a Francis Fieldhouse 13 May 1829 at St Peter, Leeds, Yorkshire, son of Francis and Rachel. On the 1891 census there is a Francis Fieldhouse age 63 who is a boarder in Leeds, occupation printer, and he is shown as married but his wife isn't there. In 1881 his wife is Mary A age 52. There is a Mary Ann Fieldhouse death in Leeds Jul-Sep 1883, age 55. Francis and Mary Ann never have a son Francis with them on the censuses. There is a Francis Fieldhouse death Jan-Mar 1901 Leeds, age 74.

But there is an Eliza Fieldhouse, wife, born Leeds, age 61, in Filey, Yorkshire, on the 1891 census, with no husband there, so if she is the Eliza who married Francis Fieldhouse then she isn't Annie's mother as she would be too old.

This may have been a total red herring, but I will post it up anyway to save anybody else following the same line!

[Ann from Sussex]

Having had the two disparate sides of Una's family explained and seen how both families came to be in the same place at the same time, plus being told that Una's mother felt the Stubbs were a bit beneath her, I would have loved to know how and where her parents met....but that's me being nosey I'm afraid!

[Olde Crone]

Ann

Why, the tennis club dance, surely! Or, more likely, the Rowntrees social club.

It's odd though. Una's father must have been a bit of a wimp to allow his wife to cut him off from his family. I bet there's a bit more to the story than that!

OC

[Merry]

This is a bit embarrassing! :D:D:D

Kate said this, which is correct:

The birth certificate for Una's father Clarence Watson Robinson showed that he was born on the 25th Oct 1908 at 50 Rose Street, York.

but The Genealogist says in its write up that her father was Clarence Reginald Stubbs who was also registered in Q4 1908, but was a completely different person!! (and was registered with the surname Stubbs and not Robinson!!) Also, Clarence Reginald was registered in Pontefract but The Genealogist article says he was born in York, which of course was where Clarence W Robinson was born!

http://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/featuredarticles/wdytya2013_stubbs.php

[Shona]

Blimey, Merry - that article is dreadful.

[Margaret in Burton]

Is anyone going to contact The Genealogist to point out their error?

[Merry]

Is anyone going to contact The Genealogist to point out their error?

Well, I'm not because they barred me from their site some years ago!

Shona, I hadn't read much of the article when I posted on here. I've just read the rest and you are right - probably one of the worst FH articles I've ever read, for a multitude of reasons!!

[Margaret in Burton]

I've never used The Genealogist site at all, too many horror stories about it.

[Vicwinann]

Una Stubbs really irritated me.

Ditto Margaret, I found her squishiness very annoying and overdone.
Victoria

[Margaret in Burton]

Ditto Margaret, I found her squishiness very annoying and overdone.
Victoria

Someone on Facebook described her voice as a little girl voice. She doesn't talk like that when she's acting.

[Piwacket]

Ditto Margaret, I found her squishiness very annoying and overdone.
Victoria

I thought that too, which surprised me as I remember her being particularly feisty in 'Til Death'. But I'd seen her a few weeks ago being interviewed and thought she'd perhaps gone a bit eccentric- with her woolly hat and odd gait.

I enjoyed it - but - it was all a bit pat - no real research shown to try to prove to the viewer (and her) that the facts were correct; and her innocent ooohs & ahhhs grated, especially about things like ''Oh no father -aww!'' and what a Workhouse was. So that seemed to underline that she is perhaps a bit eccentric ..... but there were other occasions where she seemed very sensible. I knew little about her life other than what she'd acted in, whether she was maybe just a lonely soul

so when the repeat came on last night I watched some of it again - and then looked at her Biography.

She's been around the Acting profession for decades, married twice - once to (the lovely) Peter Gilmore (Onedin Line) and then to Nicky Henson (a very old Theatrical family) and has three children - so feel a bit as though I have been duped :d

Was all that wide-eyed innocence and eccentric behaviour just an act :confused:

[Ann from Sussex]

The three sons were mentioned at the beginning of the programme Dorothy and we saw her talking to two of them about not knowing anything of her father's side.

She made me stop and think when she said that she now loved the relations she was learning about. I suddenly realised that, in all the years I've been researching my family and with all the people I've discovered whose existence I never knew of before, I can honestly say that I have never felt "love" for any of them. Fascination and intense interest but definitely not love. I reserve that for the relatives I have known. I felt that statement was a measure of the hyperbole Una Stubbs brought to the exercise and it didn't ring true to me. How does anyone else feel on the subject?

[Piwacket]

Ooh Ann I didn't register the bit about her talking to her sons :rolleyes:

I agree about her ''love them all'' :D Fascination and curiosity - yes, but that's it.

[Shona]

Una is a luvvie, darling.

[Ann from Sussex]

Una is a luvvie, darling.

:d:d:d

[Piwacket]

:d Shona
Oh yes, I realise that - but it was a bit OTT :rolleyes:

[Karen]

Can't believe my luck - thank-you Google!

Short intro - I'm an ex-Brit, long-time Canadian living in Western Canada. I have been researching my family history, off and on, for a couple of years.

I'm a relative of Una's (met her a couple of times in the 70's) as she is my father's cousin. My Dad is one of Albert's sons and remembers 'Uncle Clary' (Una's father Clarence) very well. By the way, Jocelyn (Una's cousin) in the show is my auntie, Dad's only sis - love her to bits! My UK family taped the show and I was sent a copy on DVD as we don't have it in Canada yet.

I have a fair amount of background info (some fact, some rumour) but we have a dead-end with Annie. As you know, the show concentrated on Arthur Stubbs who is not related to me and I suspect it may be because of the lack of information after Annie. I have contacted both the BBC and the York archives to see if they have more info than was broadcast in the show; the latter said it was unlikely but they'd check.

A few things came up that I/we didn't know: Annie's mother's name, Eliza; where Annie bore Albert and then Clarence; Clarence's full name and birthdate. We had that as 1906, a different Clarence obviously, and were sure that Arthur was therefore not the father as he would have probably been too young. I still think that Clarence may be another man's son and, as one poster has suggested, a clue being the middle name "Watson" - a neighbour? This is where addresses/names from census may help.

Family rumour says that Annie Robinson was adopted by an 'aunt' (Mary Hannah Harper/Horsfall). Another rumour says that Annie, who was a sweet packer around age 16-18, posed for an artist (son of an an aristocratic, prominent family) and fell pregnant with Albert, my great-grandfather, during that time. Her portrait, titled "Annie" hung in the York gallery. I contacted the gallery last year but they were under renovation and unable to help online. I have not been able to confirm any of the but would LOVE to be able to find a promising lead. Albert did not find out that Arthur was not his father until well into his thirties.

Since Annie gave birth in the Workhouse and reverted to her birth name of Robinson, I expect Mary Horsfall may have disowned her.

Where she went and how she coped over the next 5 years isn't known (again, census info needed). I think she was working as a domestic and somehow made her way to Rose Street for the birth of Clary. Anyway, not too relevant for me as Albert's my man!

It is hard to believe that Clary didn't bring his kids (Una) to see his Mum. I've asked my Dad about this and he said that Clary's wife forbade him (I expect that Annie's colourful past did not go down well with his wife) and he was a bit of a softie. He visited his cousins (and Mum) regularly, though.

I am a novice at all this but love the hunt and discovery! With limited funds, I have not yet subscribed to any genealogy websites as I am unsure which ones will be most suitable. I am ready to do so and would like to ask for subscriptions for Christmas. Recommendations gladly accepted! As for you geni-experts, I am all ears and appreciate any information you can pass my way.

Kind Regards,
Karen Smith
BC, Canada

[kiterunner]

Hi Karen,
Welcome to the forum and glad you found this thread helpful. And it's great to hear from someone who is so closely related to a WDYTYA subject.

It's quite late at night over here so I will have to post a quick reply and get back to this tomorrow.

Albert was born 1903 and Clarence 1908, so unfortunately there will be no census information covering the period between their births as the UK census is only taken every ten years, so it jumps from 1901 to 1911. On the 1901 census Annie is still with Mary Horsfall and on the 1911 she is with Arthur. I can't remember the details of what workhouse records they showed, but I suppose it's possible there might be more mentions of Annie somewhere in the poor law records, which I think would be at York archives.

Looking at York Art Gallery's website, it says they will be closed until 2015. :(

Oh, and subscription websites - if you want both UK and Canadian records I think it would have to be ancestry. If you haven't already had a free trial of their site there should be one available, I think you can usually get a 14 day free trial but you have to give credit card details when registering and then make sure to cancel before the end of the free trial to make sure they don't charge you for a sub. So read the terms and conditions etc carefully!

[kiterunner]

Just before I go to bed, there is a public tree on ancestry which shows Annie's mother Eliza as the daughter of George Robinson and Mary Best, born 1861 in York and dying 1908 in Knaresborough, but we don't know where they got this information from nor whether it is correct. They don't show a link to the 1881, 1891 or 1901 census entry. Will look into it tomorrow.

[Karen]

Thanks so much, KR, for your timely reply. I do realise that there are no census between the births - a mis-speak (type?!) on my part.
I only need British records so presume Ancestry will be best then? If so, I will subscribe for a trial and put it on my Christmas list!

Since Annie worked for Rowntree, maybe there will be records/dates? Knowing when she left may be useful....? I shall have to learn more about the poor courts. The lead you found on Eliza sounds wonderful but as you say, it may be uncorroborated.

My mother is Scottish and I have had lots of success tracing two branches quite a ways back (to 1300's!). I can't take all the credit as one line is from the Shetlands so there are some great trees I was able to join. Another Scotland line of mine is a prominent surname it's own tartan, clan and National Trust House - love this hobby!

Cheers!

[kiterunner]

If it's only British records you want, Karen, have a look at Findmypast too. I think they also offer a free trial so you could try both out and see which you like best.

[kiterunner]

Sorry to say that as far as I can see, there is no evidence for the Eliza Robinson who was George and Mary's daughter (see post #55) being Annie's mother, nor for her being the one who died in Knaresborough in 1908. Of course the owner of that tree on ancestry might have more info that is not online.

[Karen]

Thank-you, KR. I will keep digging......