Michael O'Connor and Catherine Dalton of Ardagh, Limerick, Ireland

[tenterfieldjulie]

Michael O’Connor and Catherine Dalton

I’m trying to sort the information and misinformation!!

1. Michael - Born 8 March 1878, (Glenaster, Ardagh,) Limerick to Patrick O’Connor/Connors and Bridget Kennelly/Kenneally and variants (Family search).

2. 1901 Census Glenastar, Ardagh, Co Limerick
with mother - Bridget O’Connor, Head of Family 62 yrs 6 months Farmer, widow
Michael O'Connor Son 22 Farm Labourer Not married (with unmarried siblings, older brother John, younger sisters Maggie and Lizzie 16 yrs 5 months)
All Roman Catholic, born Co. Limerick (www.census.nationalarchives.ireland)

3. Submitted by Vince Fagan on the O’Connor/Connors web page –
Michael, son of Patrick O’Connor and Bridget Keneely; born Glenaster, Co. Limerick; Spouse Catherine Dalton;
year of emigration place etc. Sydney, NSW; (no year)
died 16 Oct 1913 at 33 yrs of appendicitis; bro – P (Patrick), sis – Catherine (Kate) children: Mary, Bridget, Margaret.

4. I have found on NSW BDM Index– Births in Sydney NSW - O’Connor, Mary 1911 Waterloo No 22520; O’Connor, Bridget E 1912 Redfern No. 36262.
Births only go up to 1912, so Margaret is probably born 1913.

5. Trove (NL Database) funeral notices Michael O'Connor - SMH for 18/10/1913
1. The Friends of Mr & Mrs Patrick O'Connor .. funeral of their beloved Brother Michael. 2. The Friends of Mr & Mrs Con. Toohey of Webber- road Carlton, beloved Brother Michael 3. The Friends of Bridget, Mr & Mrs John O'Connor, Mr & Mrs. Martin Casey, Mr. & Mrs. Mat McDonagh, Mr & Mrs. J. O'Sullivan ... Funeral of Beloved brother, Michael.. 4. Hibernian Soc Notice to members.

6. Trove (NL Database) Funeral notices a) Catherine O'Connor (Mrs Michael) died 24/7/1923. Three notices: late Catherine O'Connor; Mother of Michael, Mary, Bridget, Margaret; Sister-in-law - Mr & Mrs J. O’Connor, Mascot, Mrs C Toohey & fam Carlton, Caseys of Waterloo, Mr & Mrs. P of Alexandria and Miss Bridget.
b) Catherine Carroll - 28 Dec 1923, grandmother of Michael (20?), Mary (12), Bridget (11) & Margaret O'Connor (10).

7. Rookwood Catholic Cemetery website (and info from NSW BDM Registry Index):
Carroll, Catherine 28/12/1923 87 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1265 – Death Reg. Kogarah No.20244 (Dalton) (Catherine O’Connor’s mother)
O’Connor, Michael 18/10/1913 33 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1265 – Death Reg. Petersham No. 16908 (Patrick & Bridget)
O’Connor, Catherine 24/7/1923 47 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1266 – Death Reg. Redfern No. 10452 (John & Catherine)
O’Connor, Michael Joseph 20/8/1980 77 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1266 – Death Reg. No. 19136 (Michael & Catherine) – not born NSW Abt 1903

8. I bought the above four death certificate transcriptions from Joy Murrin and some of what it states is very confusing !!

a) Michael, (18/10/1913) a municipal labourer, died aged 33, (should be 35)
of appendicitis, peritonitis in Lewisham Hospital. The informant is his brother John O’Connor, of Humphrey St., Mascot, so he knows parents names and where born. The following information is probably correct, but raises questions. Time in colony - 7 years in Western Australia, 4 yrs NSW. Place married Limerick, Ireland !!! Age at marriage 29!!! Spouse Catherine Dalton. If he was married at 29, it certainly wasn’t possible in Limerick and I can’t find in WA or NSW. Children Mary 2, Bridget 1. (Margaret not named, as born after marriage, but no Michael Joseph born C 1903)

b) Catherine O’Connor, (24/7/1923) age 47, father John Dalton and mother Catherine Carroll. The informant is her brother in law, Patrick O’Connor, 23 McEvoy St., Waterloo. Born and married in Limerick aged 33 to Michael O’Connor. Time in NSW 16 yrs. Children of marriage Michael 20, Mary 12, Bridget 10, Margaret 8 living none deceased.

c) Catherine Carroll, (27/12/1923) (I believe should be Catherine Dalton and her maiden name Carroll or O’Carroll.) INFORMANT – Patrick Toohey, no relation (was actually Michael O’Connor’s nephew) Catherine aged 86 of senility. Born Ardagh, County Limerick (where the O’Connor’s came from) About 16 yrs in colony. Father – Dalton (wrong should be Carroll) and Spouse - Carroll (wrong should be John Dalton). Children: None Living, one female deceased.

d) Michael Joseph O’Connor (16/8/1980) age 77 – lift driver – father Michael O’Connor, mother Catherine Carrol (sic) Informant M. O’Bryan, sister. (not sure if this is Mary or Margaret) Born Limerick, 69 years in Aus. Never married.

9. Birth of Catherine Dalton, 25 December 1875, Limerick, Ireland, Parents John Dalton and Catherine O’Carroll. (Familysearch)

10. Shipping Ancestry.com–“Ophir” departed Plymouth 19/8/1902 via Gibralter, Fremantle, Melbourne and Sydney. On board were Michael O’Connor farmer aged 23 and Lizzie O’Connor domestic aged 18 - their fares were paid to Sydney. If these people are children of Patrick and Bridget, then John O’Connor’s information on Michael’s death certificate may indicate that they left the ship in WA. I have not found any further trace of Lizzie.

The Confusion is, re the marriage or not, of Michael and Catherine and whether Michael O’Connor was the father of Michael Joseph. Maybe Michael O’Connor was not aware that Catherine Dalton was carrying his child and left for the colonies in 1902 then around 1907/8 - Catherine Dalton, her son Michael Joseph and her mother Catherine Dalton, nee Carroll arrived in Sydney, then Michael O’Connor arrived in Sydney in 1909 and met up with the Daltons again. Did they marry? Was Michael Joseph a son of Michael O’Connor? On Michael Joseph’s death certificate, his sister, the informant said he was, but he wasn’t on Michael Sen’s death certificate and on the death notice it did not mention wife or children.

Can anyone see how to unravel this?

I will buy Margaret O'Connor's birth certificate in 1910 and it might say where her parents are supposed to have married.

Can anyone see anything about the 18 yr old Lizzie O'Connor?

Thanks Julie

[kiterunner]

10. Shipping Ancestry.com–“Ophir” departed Plymouth 19/8/1902 via Gibralter, Fremantle, Melbourne and Sydney. On board were Michael O’Connor farmer aged 23 and Lizzie O’Connor domestic aged 18 - their fares were paid to Sydney. If these people are children of Patrick and Bridget, then John O’Connor’s information on Michael’s death certificate may indicate that they left the ship in WA. I have not found any further trace of Lizzie.



Ancestry has the passenger list for the arrival of the Ophir at Sydney 27 Sep 1902 including Mr O'Connor and Lizzie O'Connor.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. I suppose if he was "my" Michael could have come to Sydney and then gone back to Perth. I know the names are very common, but the ages definitely tie in with the ages on Census. ah well ..
I have found more about Michael & Catherine's daughters using Indexes from NSW BDM and Ryerson .. Mary married William Henry O'Bryan and they lived at Carlton, Bridget married Henry Horace Hunnam and they lived at Annandale, Margaret Susan married Thomas H Graham. When I get to the State Library in Sydney, hopefully the death notices will give me more about their families. Julie

[kiterunner]

The two Catherines should be on the 1901 Irish census, but I have had no luck with finding them as yet.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Thanks Kate. The certificates seemed very confused as to whether the Catherine's names were Carroll (O'Carroll) or Dalton. As they both died in 1923 when the children/grandchildren were small, maybe that created part of the problem. You would think the girls would have been raised by O'Connor family members as Michael Joseph was only 20 and he never married. Michael was the informant on his aunt, Miss Bridget O'Connor's death certificate in 1936. Julie

[tenterfieldjulie]

I haven't found the entry into Australia of the Dalton/Carrolls, I think that there is quite a lot of shipping from the 1900s that is very sketchy. I had a look on the Western Australian Census and found found in 1903 at North Fremantle a Michael O'Connor at Baily St a horse driver and a Michael Joseph at Swan St a labourer. I also found at 372 Newcastle St. Perth John and Michael O'Connor labourers in 1903 and 1906 and I could not find them in 1910. One of the few certs to purchase is John's death and it will be interesting to see if he spent time in WA. He was married in Sydney in 1910 and a John O'Connor was witness at Mary (Minnie's) marriage to Martin Casey on 23 Aug 1902. So whether they both then West? Hopefully John's death cert will say if he spent time in WA, although as he didn't die until 1960 it might not be recorded. Need to purchase a few more certs . Julie

[marquette]

Some of my Kerr family spent time in the 1900-1914 period in WA - they came from NZ and eventually settled in Sydney, but there are marriages and births in WA for some of them.

Also, in the same family, there is a daughter listed on the death certificate of Andrew Kerr, but not on that of his wife. The birth date of the daughter generally acknowledged is two years before their marriage, so I am fairly sure she is not the wifes child, but I am unable to find exactly where she was born, or who was her mother.

Maybe the poor nephew who was sent to register Catherine Dalton/Carrolls death had stopped for a wee dram on the way and got all the information muddled !!

[tenterfieldjulie]

Yes he could have easily lol ..
The thing is though Michael O'Connor died in Oct 1913, Catherine O'Connor died July 1923 and then her mother died in Dec 1923. Michael Joseph O'Connor was only 20 and his grandmother was 86 and she died of Senility. I think that is strange .. why should you die from Senility, you may have it, but why would it be a cause of death .. unless you stopped eating ? The other piece of info on the cert is that it says that Catherine Dalton/Carroll's occupation was Commonwealth Old Age Pensioner. Would there be records with any information on this? Julie

[marquette]

The NAA site has lots of things listed for OLD AGE PENSION, some the Acts, but it might explain who was eligible. The only individual applications seem to be from men of GErman origin, but there is a register of claims for district of Sydney. You might have to go to Canberra to see it though.

my 4GF James Rodford died of senility in 1879, he wasn't as old as 86, maybe a form of dementia I thought.

[tenterfieldjulie]

I went looking for Catherine Dalton on the 1901 Census in Ireland born C 1875 .. the only one I could find of the correct age, born Limerick, was a sister of the St John of God order. I couldn't find her in 1911 .. She was living in Wexford in 1901 which isn't that far from Limerick and would be enroute for the ferry to UK !! .... imagination overload here!

[Wangivin]

Thanks Kate. I suppose if he was "my" Michael could have come to Sydney and then gone back to Perth. I know the names are very common, but the ages definitely tie in with the ages on Census. ah well ..
I have found more about Michael & Catherine's daughters using Indexes from NSW BDM and Ryerson .. Mary married William Henry O'Bryan and they lived at Carlton, Bridget married Henry Horace Hunnam and they lived at Annandale, Margaret Susan married Thomas H Graham. When I get to the State Library in Sydney, hopefully the death notices will give me more about their families. Julie

The quote is mostly accurate except for the marriage of Margaret. Margaret (who did not have a middle name) married Brendan James Fagan at Hurstville Catholic Church on 23 September 1944. Four children were born of the marriage. I am the eldest of them. Brendan died in Sydney on 17 January 1969. Margaret died on 13 August 1987 at Heathcote.

Vince Fagan

[HarrysMum]

Welcome Vince. I'm sure Julie will be happy to see this. I'll let her know now.

[tenterfieldjulie]

Vince how lovely to hear from you. Thank you so much for the correct information about Margaret and her family.

Very sadly, my husband's grandmother, Ellen McDonagh, nee O'Connor, was ill for a number of years and died at quite an early age. My mother in law then cared for her father and two brothers and didn't marry until she was in her 40s to Lorimer Greentree. However, they were blessed with two children, Mary and Peter (my husband) (both now deceased).
I have a lovely wedding photo of Ellen and Mathew, who married at St. Benedicts in Sydney, but they lived all their married life at Ben Lomond near Guyra in the New England region.

I am hoping to go back to Ireland in June and to Glenaster townland near Ardagh, County Limerick, where we now know for sure the O'Connor/Connors came from.

I am wondering if you have any information that you may be able to share on the family in Ireland. I will send you a private message via this forum with my email address, if you wish to contact me via email. If you are interested, I am more than happy to share any further information on the family, most of which I have found on Trove. It was only with the help of the forum that I found that so many of the family came to Australia.

My late sister in law, Mary Leister, remembered posting letters for her mother to members of the family (including the Tooheys). So it is possible that there are letters that have survived.

Many thanks again Vince. Kind regards. Julie