Cotton Brick Wall

[Cassic]

Hello. I posted a thread about this on Rootschat and a nice man called Garsonite recommended I contact this forum.
My great Aunt, Charlotte Mary Pickens (b.1865 London) married Edwin Thomas Perry Cotton (b.1863 Sidmouth) in London in 1884.
They had 3 children, all born London: Mary Ann 1885, Edwin Frederick Joseph 1888 & Thomas William 1889. Have found them all together in Hammersmith in 1891 but after that they pretty much vanished!
(btw the Joseph Pickens listed with them in 1891 was Charlotte's father, who subsequently went to the US).
There is a possible sighting, in 1901, of Edwin Sr in Hammersmith, shown as a coffee house keeper but he had always been a gardener so that seems strange.
I might have found Edwin Jr (described as Frederick Joseph) in 1901 at the Chertsey School of Handicrafts, Surrey. This was, I believe, a school for 'orphans and children of destitute parents'.
I have marriage certs for both sons in 1915 (Fulham) & 1916 (Kensington), where their father is described as Gardener (deceased).
I know that Thomas William Cotton was in the 6th Dragoons & have his medal record and the 1911 census, when the regiment was in India.
Other than that I have searched UK & US censuses, deaths, marriages, passenger lists & I can find no trace of any of them (other than the possible sightings above0.
I would so love to know what happened to my great aunt - especially because, until I started this research, none of my family knew she existed!:confused:

[kiterunner]

That 1901 census entry is definitely Edwin, because I have found the following entries in the London School records on ancestry:

Annie Cotton admitted to Captain Marryat's Infant School, Hammersmith & Fulham, 10 Mar 1890, father Edwin Cotton, gardener, residence 71 Biscay Rd, date of birth 12 Jul 1885, removed 29 Aug 1890

Annie Cotton admitted to St Stephen's Parochial School, Hammersmith & Fulham, 24 Aug 1896, father Edward Cotton, coffee house, residence 256 Uxbridge Rd, date of birth 26 Jul 1885, date of leaving 27 Aug 1897.

Annie must be Mary Ann. I will see if I can find any more school records to help.

[Merry]

Welcome to the forum!

Edwin F J Cotton was registered for death in 1961 in Launceston district. There is a probate record for him the same year.

There's also a passenger list including him, arriving from New York in 1928 on the SS Metagama. His occ was shoe tracer and his proposed address in the UK was 76 Roseworth St Chelsea.

[kiterunner]

Here are some more school records:

St Stephen's Parochial School, Hammersmith & Fulham
Admission date 13 Apr 1891
Mary A Cotton born 26 Jul 1885 and Fredk Cotton born May 1887, father Fred, address Willow Vale, previous school for Mary A is Westville Rd.

[Cassic]

Thank you both very much! And thank you for the kind welcome.

Kiterunner: Thank you so much for the school records, I must have missed them, although they do have them on Ancestry, so I will check them again. It definitely proves that that is my Edwin, which is a relief.

Merry: I had found the death for Edwin's son but hadn't found the one on the passenger list.

You would imagine that Charlotte Mary had died but I cannot find a record anywhere - unless she ran off with someone else, in which case I haven't much chance of finding her!

Thanks again, Carole

[Merry]

It definitely proves that that is my Edwin, which is a relief.


Yes, and who is Nita Christine Blackwell??!!

[Cassic]

Very good question! I have searched for her but not yet found anything. It seems so odd that she is down as 'wife' and yet she gives her full name. And she was so much younger than him!
Carole

[kiterunner]

I spent some time looking for her earlier on but found nothing.

[kiterunner]

Edwin F J Cotton was registered for death in 1961 in Launceston district. There is a probate record for him the same year.

There's also a passenger list including him, arriving from New York in 1928 on the SS Metagama. His occ was shoe tracer and his proposed address in the UK was 76 Roseworth St Chelsea.

And his country of last permanent residence is Canada (I just got round to looking at it!)

[kiterunner]

This is him travelling to Canada:

26 Nov 1926 on the SS Metagama from Liverpool arriving at Saint John, New Brunswick 7 Dec 1926.
Edwin Cotton age 34, born London England, British, not been to Canada before, occupation salesman, shoe trade, address in Canada c/o Post Office, Vancouver, BC, nearest relative in England cousin Miss E Hutchinson, 14 Wilton St., Grosvenor Place, SW1. Edwin's last address in UK 54 Hasker Street, London SW3 (that bit is from the departure record but the rest is from the arrival.)

[ElizabethHerts]

Is this your Charlotte Mary Pickens before her marriage?

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?path=sessionsPapers%2F18810328.xml

You need to use "Find" to locate the surname PICKENS.

She was recommended for an award.

[Cassic]

Wow, that's really interesting, thank you. Despite extensive research into this family I have never come across a cousin called E Hutchinson! I will investigate.
By the way, I too have looked for Nita Christine Blackwell (including a first name search) and have found nothing so far.

[Cassic]

Is this your Charlotte Mary Pickens before her marriage?

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?path=sessionsPapers%2F18810328.xml

You need to use "Find" to locate the surname PICKENS.

She was recommended for an award.

Thank you so much for that - it is absolutely fascinating and it is most definitely my Charlotte, as she was indeed a maid in the household of Viscount Harberton. That really puts flesh on the bones! Funnily enough, her father Joseph was a City of London policeman. I've never seen that website before - it's amazing. Thanks again.
Carole

[ElizabethHerts]

The website is really useful and I have found some of my ancestors and their relatives on it, Carole. It usually turns up by googling.

I'm pleased I was able to find this for you as it really does add extra dimensions to the person.

[Merry]

Wow, that's really interesting, thank you. Despite extensive research into this family I have never come across a cousin called E Hutchinson! I will investigate.


Oooh, what about this? (14 Wilton Street, Grosvenor Place, SW1 was in the Reg District of St George Hanover Sq - right next to Buckingham Palace gardens!)


Marriages Jun 1929
Cotton Frederick J Hutchinson St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 1094
Hutchinson Ethel Cotton St Geo.H.Sq. 1a 1094

There is a birth reg in Q4 the same year in London for a child Cotton with mmn Hutchinson (we don't post names of possibly living people on this site). This individual doesn't easily pop up anywhere else in the UK at the moment (I haven't looked for more than a minute or two though).

[Merry]

Hmmmm.....sorry to be so cryptic, but I'm still not posting names iin case I make an error.

The 1929 birth has distinctive first names. If you search Ancestry with the first name and the two initials only (I use Ancestry Old Search - don't know how much difference it will make if you use the new one?!) you will see entries in the London E-rolls with a different surname. This person seems to have died in 1973 and the date of birth given falls in Q4 1929 which is when the Cotton birth was registered.

There is a very likely marriage for the parents of this boy - not Cotton to X though, but Ethel M Hutchinson to X in 1931. There is then another marriage for Ethel M to surname Counihan who is the person living in the household on the E-rolls. This marriage is in 1950.

There are two possible deaths for Ethel with this surname, but I'm most tempted by the 1904-1981 person because that could tie in with this birth:


Births Sep 1904
HUTCHINSON Ethel May St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 474

(there are others though)

[Merry]

Hmmm.....Ethel May (Q3 1904) seems to be the dau of Emily Hutchinson aged 30 b St Leonards Sussex. She says she has been married ten years with one living child (in 1911) but has her mother living with her also called Hutchinson.

I have looked back at 1901/1891 etc to see if I can positively identify this person, but really I should be doing h******rk now :(. It may be that, whoever Miss E Hutchinson is, she may not be a cousin of EFJ Cotton, but that's the info he have because he needed to list a next of kin. On the other hand it may turn out they are related and this may help with your tree......

[Merry]

The 1911 census form seems to have been signed by Emily's mother, Mary Hutchinson, so presumably that is Mary's surname. So, either Emily wasn't actually married, or she married someone with the same surname, or her mother remarried to a Hutchinson.

There are no Emily Hutchinson births in Hastings district around 1880 as far as I could see.

Can anyone read the place Mary Hutchinson says she was born in Sussex?

Ethel May Hutchinson and family - 1911 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_07347_0707_03/40368886?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3demily%26gsln%3dh utchinson%26sx%3d%26f2%3d%26f3%3d%26f8%3d%26rg_810 04011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__date%3d0%26f17%3d%26 f18%3dsussex%26f23%3d%26f20%3d%26f21%3d%26_8000C00 2%3d%26_80008002%3d%26_80018002%3d%26f15%3d%26f9%3 d%26f22%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3d1911england %26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3drfs%26gst %3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

[Merry]

or her mother remarried to a Hutchinson

That can't be it because Mary Hutchinson said she had been married thirty something years in 1911.

[Merry]

Possible?

Is this the right Mary Hutchinson in 1901? (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/SSXRG13_870_873-0039/6125498?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3dmary %26gsln%3dhutchinson%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4% 3d%26f18%3d%26f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26r s_81004011__date%3d0%26f27%3d%26f14%3dsussex%26f15 %3d%26_8000C002%3d%26_80008002%3d%26_80018002%3d%2 6f7%3d%26f8%3d%26f9%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3 duki1901%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d1%26h%3d6125498%26recoff%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)

[Merry]

Maybe not! I have to go now.......

[Cassic]

Wow, you two move fast don't you? Am now thoroughly confused but trying hard to follow! Am trying to figure out that place in Sussex - it looks like W......... Hill but so far can't find it anywhere.
Thanks for all your efforts!
Carole

[Merry]

Just say if there's anything that doesn't make sense and I can always send you a personal message (ie private) with the details.

[Merry]

If Emily was really married ten years by 1911 then this looks like her in 1901:

Emily Hutchinson 1901 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LNDRG13_373_375-0620/3030608?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3frank%3d0%26gsfn%3demily%26gsln%3dh utchinson%26sx%3d%26f1%3d%26f2%3d%26f4%3d%26f18%3d %26f12__n%3d%26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011_ _date%3d0%26f27%3d%26f14%3d%26f15%3d%26_8000C002%3 d%26_80008002%3d%26_80018002%3d%26f7%3d%26f8%3d%26 f9%3d%26gskw%3dst%2bleon*%26prox%3d1%26db%3duki190 1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gl%3d%26gss%3drfs%26gs t%3d%26so%3d3&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Perhaps Mary Hutchinson was her mother-in-law.

[kiterunner]

Can anyone read the place Mary Hutchinson says she was born in Sussex?



Wartling Hill.

[Merry]

Thanks Kate.

I have found what would appear to be the same Mary with husband George and a raft of children going back to the 1871 census, but as yet I've not been able to marry any of the sons off to Emily (or Emily J as she seems to be in 1901)

[Merry]

Hmmm....Sons of George and Mary Hutchinson:

George 1870
John abt 1871
William abt 1873
Milton Richard 1880
Albert Edward 1883

I couldn't find registrations for the first three.

She also had three daughters, Mary Ann abt 1868, Hannah abt 1875 and Alice abt 1877. One of these eight died by 1911.

This looks like their marriage:


Marriages Dec 1867

DULY Mary Hailsham 2b 147
HUTCHINSON George Hailsham 2b 147


Just adding it in case the surname Duly is a eureka moment for Carole!! lol

[Merry]

George 1870
John abt 1871
William abt 1873
Milton Richard 1880 Married Rosina Hewett Adams 1904
Albert Edward 1883 Married Esther Elizabeth Williams 1903

[Merry]

George 1870 Married Ann Barden 1896
John abt 1871 listed as single in 1911
William abt 1873 Married Jane Barden 1898
Milton Richard 1880 Married Rosina Hewett Adams 1904
Albert Edward 1883 Married Esther Elizabeth Williams 1903

So, now I'm confused! lol

[kiterunner]

What are you confused about, Merry? I can't say I understand exactly how those people fit in but I could try and help?

[Merry]

OK, this is what I see so far from memory!:

Edwin F J Cotton marries Hilda Wood in 1915/16.

In the late 1920's he travels to Canada and back and on one of the journeys he says his nearest relative is a cousin called Miss E Hutchinson of some address in St George Hanover Square District. As he doesn't mention Hilda I presume she had either died or divorced/separated etc

He seems to marry this "cousin" Ethel Hutchinson in 1929 and they have a son together soon after.

I think I followed Ethel through her life, marrying Mr Russell in 1931 (worryingly soon after her previous marriage isn't it?)and Mr Counihan in 1950. Ethel's son is known as Mr Russell and marries and dies with that surname. He and the Counihan's are showing together on the e-rolls when he turns 21 in the early 1950s.

There were two possible deaths for Ethel, but I decided I fancied the 1981 death because that led back to a birth in 1904 for Ethel May Hutchinson in St Geo Hanover Sq.

Ethel May was the daughter of Mrs Emily (J?) Hutchinson who said she had been married ten years in 1911 but only one child born. In the house was a Mrs Mary Hutchinson - mother - who I rather presumed was her mother-in-law.

I found a married Emily Hutchinson with the right birth details on the 1901 census, so in theory this young woman would have been married a very short time at this stage, however all Mary Hutchinson's sons seem to have been married to other people and I haven't been able to find any sensible marriage to any Hutchinson for Emily at the right date, where I can also find a birth in Sussex for her with the appropriate surname. So, how are Mrs Emily Hutchinson and Mrs Mary Hutchinson connected? I can't make them mother and daughter or mother-in-law and daughter-in-law!

Probably all this is a massive red herring when it comes to sorting Carole's tree (ie Ethel may not be a cousin at all!), but you know how it annoying it is when the answer doesn't want to reveal itself!!

(and I have burnt my shins sitting in the garden with the laptop!!! :D)

[Merry]

And I may have matched up any of the names incorrectly anywhere along the line! Ethel Hutchinson didn't have a middle name when she married F J Cotton and he didn't have his first name, Edwin, but even so it still felt right at the time :o

[kiterunner]

Thanks for explaining it, Merry. I had a look through and couldn't find anything that you hadn't already found, except a death for George Hutchinson sr in 1910 to confirm that Mary was a widow in 1911.

We only have Emily J's name from the censuses, don't we? So it could be that Emily wasn't her official first name.

[Cassic]

OK, this is what I see so far from memory!:

Edwin F J Cotton marries Hilda Wood in 1915/16.

In the late 1920's he travels to Canada and back and on one of the journeys he says his nearest relative is a cousin called Miss E Hutchinson of some address in St George Hanover Square District. As he doesn't mention Hilda I presume she had either died or divorced/separated etc

He seems to marry this "cousin" Ethel Hutchinson in 1929 and they have a son together soon after.

I think I followed Ethel through her life, marrying Mr Russell in 1931 (worryingly soon after her previous marriage isn't it?)and Mr Counihan in 1950. Ethel's son is known as Mr Russell and marries and dies with that surname. He and the Counihan's are showing together on the e-rolls when he turns 21 in the early 1950s.

There were two possible deaths for Ethel, but I decided I fancied the 1981 death because that led back to a birth in 1904 for Ethel May Hutchinson in St Geo Hanover Sq.

Ethel May was the daughter of Mrs Emily (J?) Hutchinson who said she had been married ten years in 1911 but only one child born. In the house was a Mrs Mary Hutchinson - mother - who I rather presumed was her mother-in-law.

I found a married Emily Hutchinson with the right birth details on the 1901 census, so in theory this young woman would have been married a very short time at this stage, however all Mary Hutchinson's sons seem to have been married to other people and I haven't been able to find any sensible marriage to any Hutchinson for Emily at the right date, where I can also find a birth in Sussex for her with the appropriate surname. So, how are Mrs Emily Hutchinson and Mrs Mary Hutchinson connected? I can't make them mother and daughter or mother-in-law and daughter-in-law!

Probably all this is a massive red herring when it comes to sorting Carole's tree (ie Ethel may not be a cousin at all!), but you know how it annoying it is when the answer doesn't want to reveal itself!!

(and I have burnt my shins sitting in the garden with the laptop!!! :D)

Thank you for the summary - that makes things a lot clearer. Maybe I can find some descendants who know something.
Hope the sunburn isn't too bad!
Carole

[Cassic]

Hmmm....Sons of George and Mary Hutchinson:

George 1870
John abt 1871
William abt 1873
Milton Richard 1880
Albert Edward 1883

I couldn't find registrations for the first three.

She also had three daughters, Mary Ann abt 1868, Hannah abt 1875 and Alice abt 1877. One of these eight died by 1911.

This looks like their marriage:


Marriages Dec 1867

DULY Mary Hailsham 2b 147
HUTCHINSON George Hailsham 2b 147


Just adding it in case the surname Duly is a eureka moment for Carole!! lol
Sadly the name Duly means absolutely nothing.
Carole

[Merry]

Sadly the name Duly means absolutely nothing.
Carole

lol! I'm not surprised!!

I have looked on Ancestry and Genes Reunited to see if anyone has Ethel or her son (with either of his surnames) on their tree, but no luck with that.

It's quite possible that I've made some massive clanger in picking up the right entries for these people - is it your Edwin who married Ethel Hutchinson? Is she the same person who then married the other two men? Have I chosen the right death reg for Ethel? etc etc


It's only now that I realise the son called Cotton who changed his name to Russell does at times double barrel together his mother's maiden name and his new surname. So if you are looking at any of this, that's another combination to try.

I've just seen something else that makes me wonder if I've gone wrong!

I thought Ethel's son married in 1952 using the surname Russell. His bride remarried in 1959, before his death (using his double-barrelled surname varient), so I presume they had been divorced. The surprise thing is that when Ethel's son remarried in 1968 (and remember we don't really know that all these people are truly the same people as each other!) there was an announcement in The Times saying the marriage was in Nairobi - his new wife was a daughter of a baronet! Now, of course it is not impossible for the son of a shoe salesman to marry "up", but it does make me think twice (or three times!) about the records I've strung together. Certainly the man marrying the baronet's daughter is the son of Mrs Counihan because the paper says so, but is this the same Ethel who was born in St Geo Hanover Square and might have been your Edwin's cousin?? ........Well, I have to say it would be a surprise if it turned out to be the same person!!


Oooh, and what about this????? When the man I thought was Ethel's son died in 1973 there is a notice in The Times saying he is the son of Elaine Counihan!! So.......I don't see how that can be really, even if Mrs C wasn't the same woman who married Mr Cotton I'm sure her first name was Ethel!! (did she think calling herself Elaine was grander than Ethel? There is no death for an Elaine) The newspaper snippet also says the dec'd man had a sister - I had not found this sister, but I have now, a child (b1937) of Mr Russell and Ethel/Elaine. I did wonder if it were possible that either Mr Russell or Mr Counihan was the person who was grander than Ethel and Edwin (sorry Carole - you know what I mean!), but Mr Russell was the son of a bread salesman, so that doesn't seem very likely. Mr Counihan was the son of a contractors foreman. So.....if they were all not so grand, perhaps Ethel thought she had done well to marry off her son to the daughter of a baronet?!!

...... but it's definitely time for me to have a lay down in a darkened room now lol (my legs are find now Carole! thanks!!)

[Merry]

And all this because Edwin casually called Ethel (or rather, Miss E Hutchinson) his cousin on a bit of paper over 80 years ago! lol

[Cassic]

It's amazing what you can find from just one line on a piece of paper! A lie down in a darkened room seems definitely the answer at the moment but unfortunately I have to go out now - it's my husband's birthday and we are going to a bbq.
Carole

[Merry]

Happy birthday to your OH!

We are having a BBQ too, a bit later. First I have to take my dau to a dance exam!

[Cassic]

Welcome to the forum!

Edwin F J Cotton was registered for death in 1961 in Launceston district. There is a probate record for him the same year.

There's also a passenger list including him, arriving from New York in 1928 on the SS Metagama. His occ was shoe tracer and his proposed address in the UK was 76 Roseworth St Chelsea.

Does anyone think it might do any good to send for Edwin Cotton's Will? Probate was granted to his bank, so there are no clues as to the people named in the Will. I've never sent for one before but I phoned the London Probate Registry and it would seem pretty easy.
Carole

[Merry]

It might well be worthwhile, but you won't know until you have it!!

[Cassic]

Hmmmm. Thanks. I think!!! Will probably do it anyway and let you know what happens.
Carole x

[kiterunner]

Yes, I should think it's worth giving it a try. And it's pretty cheap compared to the cost of a certificate.

[Cassic]

;(And another thing!!! How come, when said child married (in 1952) he gave his name as Hutchinson-Russell? I am totally confused as to why it was Hutchinson-Russell and not Cotton-Russell. And how come Ethel & Edwin Frederick Joseph divorced so soon? Maybe it was because the child wasn't Edwin's? I always knew my family was complicated, just not quite this complicated!

Am definitely going to avail myself of the 'lying down in the darkened room' again for a while. :confused:

[kiterunner]

There could be all kinds of reasons and the child could be Edwin's or not. Sorry but BMD indexes and e rolls aren't really enough to show everything! One clue could be that if the parents of a child marry each other after his / her birth was registered, they are supposed to reregister the birth, and it is then listed in the index twice (or more), once before the marriage and once after it, although of course if they didn't re-register the birth I suppose it isn't definite proof one way or the other.

[kiterunner]

Oh, I think Hutchinson was one of his middle names on his birth registration so it was maybe a case of his surname being changed to Russell, and then the middle name and surname being hyphenated together to make a more distinguished-looking name - I have one or two in my tree who did that, the hyphenating middle name and surname together, I mean, when their surname started off as something boring like Jenks or Brown.

[Merry]

And how come Ethel & Edwin Frederick Joseph divorced so soon?

We don't actually know they were divorced, do we?!! (we don't actually know that marriage is definitely them either - just very likely). Unless you see the marriage cert between Ethel and Mr Russell you won't know what she said her Condition was, so she could have lied and said spinster !(as she re-married using her maiden name).

[Merry]

Divorces were listed in The Times in those days, but I can't see one for F J Cotton v E Cotton (1929-1931).

[Cassic]

Aaaaaargh!!!!:eek:

[kiterunner]

I don't think the Times had all the divorces, though.

[Cassic]

Oh, I think Hutchinson was one of his middle names on his birth registration so it was maybe a case of his surname being changed to Russell, and then the middle name and surname being hyphenated together to make a more distinguished-looking name - I have one or two in my tree who did that, the hyphenating middle name and surname together, I mean, when their surname started off as something boring like Jenks or Brown.

Have now sent for birth certificate of child. I just have to know! It should take a week or so. Will let you know.

This reminds me of the old saying: When you're up to your armpits in alligators, it's difficult to remember that your original intention was to drain the swamp. I just started off wanting to know what happened to my Great Aunt Charlotte! However, if I can possibly find any descendants of this child, they may know something. I live in hopes.
Carole :confused:

[maggie_4_7]

I'm not sure Edwin could have legally married anyone in 1929 when his wife Hilda didn't start divorce proceedings until 1931! I think that is the date for filing rather than decree nisi or absolute.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?discoveryCustomSearch=0&_q=Edwin+Cotton&_sd=1858&_ed=1937&_ser=J+77&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=34&image1.y=13

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C8064786

[Merry]

lol! I had quite forgotten about Great Aunt Charlotte!!

You never know - something quite unexpected may turn up which will answer your original question!

[Merry]

I'm not sure Edwin could have legally married anyone in 1929 when his wife Hilda didn't start divorce proceedings until 1931! I think that is the date for filing rather than decree nisi or absolute.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C8064786


We don't know what happened to Hilda, Maggie! The divorce we were looking for was between (Edwin?) F J Cotton and Ethel Cotton nee Hutchinson. They married (or rather, a couple with those names married) in 1929 but Ethel was (we think) busy marrying someone else two years later, using her maiden surname!

[maggie_4_7]

We don't know what happened to Hilda, Maggie! The divorce we were looking for was between (Edwin?) F J Cotton and Ethel Cotton nee Hutchinson. They married (or rather, a couple with those names married) in 1929 but Ethel was (we think) busy marrying someone else two years later, using her maiden surname!

I don't think you'll find a marriage though and if you do find one in 1929 it would be bigamous and also null and void no need for divorce for Ethel to remarry, which is why her next 'marriage' is so close.

Edit: and what's the betting that Ethel is the Co-respondent named in those documents!

[Merry]

There is a marriage listed in 1929 so in theory it wasn't annulled (because it should have been removed from the GRO index, but that rarely seemed to happen). In theory a bigamous marriage should be annulled before a legal marriage can take place, but tell that to my gran! lol

[Cassic]

I'm not sure Edwin could have legally married anyone in 1929 when his wife Hilda didn't start divorce proceedings until 1931! I think that is the date for filing rather than decree nisi or absolute.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?discoveryCustomSearch=0&_q=Edwin+Cotton&_sd=1858&_ed=1937&_ser=J+77&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=34&image1.y=13

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C8064786

Thank you so much Maggie - that is amazing. I looked for divorces on Ancestry but didn't even think of going on to the National Archives etc. That brings a whole new perspective to it doesn't it? I can only repeat that I knew my family was complicated (and, honestly, you wouldn't believe how complicated) but this really surprises me. The darkened room beckons again...........

[Merry]

So sorry, Maggie - I am on my phone and didn't see your links at the bottom of your post, so I was completely at cross purposes to you, so please ignore my last couple of posts!! :o

[Merry]

Aaagggghhh...I can't open the links on here. Is it re Hilda divorcing Edwin? what's the date?

[Merry]

Hilda remarried to William J Songhurst in 1936.

[maggie_4_7]

Aaagggghhh...I can't open the links on here. Is it re Hilda divorcing Edwin? what's the date?

Yes Hilda divorcing Edwin the date is 1931. Edwin is the respondent.

[Cassic]

I am just totally staggered by the amount of information that you lot have come up with. There isn't a 'smiley' that covers it! Thank you so much, all of you. I will let you know as soon as the birth cert arrives.

In the meantime - PLEASE don't forget my poor Great Aunt Charlotte. I'm not asking for help in finding her, just any suggestions as to what I should do next. I don't mind doing all the hard work. Should I just trawl through the death records?

Carole x

[kiterunner]

Hmm, seeing what shenanigans her son got up to, I suspect that Charlotte may have run off with someone and that her death will be registered under another surname. But if so then it probably won't be easy to find.

[Merry]

Hmm, seeing what shenanigans her son got up to, I suspect that Charlotte may have run off with someone and that her death will be registered under another surname. But if so then it probably won't be easy to find.

And her dad was a policeman! :eek:

What happened to Joseph Pickens? I couldn't see his death reg.

EDIT - did he go to America? How many of the Pickens emigrated?

[Cassic]

And her dad was a policeman! :eek:

What happened to Joseph Pickens? I couldn't see his death reg.

EDIT - did he go to America? How many of the Pickens emigrated?

Yes, he went to America, to New York. So far as I can see, he travelled over there with his son William. I don't know what happened to William but I found Joseph in 1900 living with his eldest daughter Margaret & her husband William Baird in Suffolk County NY. I have never found his death but you know what US records are like. His son Joseph David emigrated too and ended up in Nevada. Joseph seems to have left his children by his second marriage (one of which was my grandfather Richard) to pretty much fend for themselves. Richard joined the Army. The circumstances of Joseph's second marriage (3 months after the death of his first wife) seem a bit odd and I have only once found him and my great grandmother living at the same address.

I told you my family was complicated.

Carole

[Cassic]

Sorry, forgot to mention: Joseph's daughter Grace (my Grandad's sister) also went to live in New York, after a spell as a nurse in a leper colony in the Philippines (yes, really) but she went to Brooklyn. I have no evidence that she had anything to do with her father but she may have done. She was the superintendent of a home for blind babies in Brooklyn. She had one son called Ralph and I am now in touch with one of his daughters, who lives in Miami. She's very nice but knows nothing about Grace or her family, which is a shame.

[Cassic]

Hmm, seeing what shenanigans her son got up to, I suspect that Charlotte may have run off with someone and that her death will be registered under another surname. But if so then it probably won't be easy to find.

I think that maybe 'probably won't be easy to find' could just turn out to be a slight understatement!!!!!;(

[Cassic]

lol! I'm not surprised!!

I have looked on Ancestry and Genes Reunited to see if anyone has Ethel or her son (with either of his surnames) on their tree, but no luck with that.

It's quite possible that I've made some massive clanger in picking up the right entries for these people - is it your Edwin who married Ethel Hutchinson? Is she the same person who then married the other two men? Have I chosen the right death reg for Ethel? etc etc


It's only now that I realise the son called Cotton who changed his name to Russell does at times double barrel together his mother's maiden name and his new surname. So if you are looking at any of this, that's another combination to try.


I've just seen something else that makes me wonder if I've gone wrong!

I thought Ethel's son married in 1952 using the surname Russell. His bride remarried in 1959, before his death (using his double-barrelled surname varient), so I presume they had been divorced. The surprise thing is that when Ethel's son remarried in 1968 (and remember we don't really know that all these people are truly the same people as each other!) there was an announcement in The Times saying the marriage was in Nairobi - his new wife was a daughter of a baronet! Now, of course it is not impossible for the son of a shoe salesman to marry "up", but it does make me think twice (or three times!) about the records I've strung together. Certainly the man marrying the baronet's daughter is the son of Mrs Counihan because the paper says so, but is this the same Ethel who was born in St Geo Hanover Square and might have been your Edwin's cousin?? ........Well, I have to say it would be a surprise if it turned out to be the same person!!


Oooh, and what about this????? When the man I thought was Ethel's son died in 1973 there is a notice in The Times saying he is the son of Elaine Counihan!! So.......I don't see how that can be really, even if Mrs C wasn't the same woman who married Mr Cotton I'm sure her first name was Ethel!! (did she think calling herself Elaine was grander than Ethel? There is no death for an Elaine) The newspaper snippet also says the dec'd man had a sister - I had not found this sister, but I have now, a child (b1937) of Mr Russell and Ethel/Elaine. I did wonder if it were possible that either Mr Russell or Mr Counihan was the person who was grander than Ethel and Edwin (sorry Carole - you know what I mean!), but Mr Russell was the son of a bread salesman, so that doesn't seem very likely. Mr Counihan was the son of a contractors foreman. So.....if they were all not so grand, perhaps Ethel thought she had done well to marry off her son to the daughter of a baronet?!!

...... but it's definitely time for me to have a lay down in a darkened room now lol (my legs are find now Carole! thanks!!)

I have found someone on Ancestry who has an exact match for the child with the double barrelled name. Trouble is it is a private tree, so I have sent a message and am keeping my fingers crossed!
Carole

[Cassic]

Can we call Edwin's (probable) son by his name now? He's been dead since 1973!

[Merry]

lol Yes I suppose so - I was only worrying in case I was giving him the wrong family connections, but still haven't found anything to put a spanner in the works!