View Full Version : New ITV Series Secrets from the Workhouse
kiterunner
18-06-13, 16:50
Similar to WDYTYA but several celebrities in the same episode and focussing on ancestors who were in the workhouse. Starts Tuesday 25th June at 9 p.m. with Brian Cox (the actor), Fern Britton, Barbara Taylor Bradford and model Kiera Chaplin who is a granddaughter of Charlie Chaplin. Looks interesting.
(I think of the actor Brian Cox as "the" Brian Cox and the presenter as "the other Brian Cox" but I suppose it is less confusing to put "the actor".)
I read about it in one of the papers - Felicity Kendall was one of the interviewees.
kiterunner
18-06-13, 17:13
Oh yes, Felicity Kendal is in episode 2, with Brian Cox and Barbara Taylor Bradford continuing into that one.
maggie_4_7
18-06-13, 17:15
I am looking forward to it but I have tried to set record and its still not coming up on my box.
kiterunner
18-06-13, 17:40
Is that on Freeview or Sky or cable, Maggie?
maggie_4_7
18-06-13, 17:58
Freeview.
By the way if anyone says 'Brian Cox' I always think its the Scottish actor always. He played Hannibal Lecter first.
kiterunner
18-06-13, 18:07
I'll check my Freeview in a while but OH is watching something on it now.
kiterunner
18-06-13, 19:03
It's coming up okay on my Freeview EPG, Maggie, with the option to record the series and the timer is now showing on my list.
maggie_4_7
18-06-13, 19:08
I will check mine again I checked it last night nothing.
Edit: nadda nothing not coming up might try to re-tune it see what happens but is concerned because 'we have' so much else set for record and it'll lose it.
kiterunner
18-06-13, 19:20
I should wait till nearer the date if I were you, Maggie; maybe it'll appear by then.
We're Sky and I only got it to come up for recording by using 'Search', that was last night but I assume that it should be on the seven day schedule by now.
Margaret.
Sue from Southend
19-06-13, 10:33
I've set it to record and I'm really looking forward to it as I have so many ancestors that were in the Workhouse at one time or another and I'm hoping to learn more about their lives. Let's hope the programme lives up to my expectations!
Have marked it on my calendar and hope I remember to look !
One of my gt gt grans died in Westminster Union Workhouse in 1911 aged abt 84
tenterfieldjulie
21-06-13, 10:57
I do hope it is put on DVD .. I have a number who ended up there in Cornwall. Also a blacksmith in Bucks (think he could have been in the infirmary). I also have an ancestor who was a Governor of the workhouse in Milverton in Somerset.
I've been reading a story of a young 14 year old who was thrown out of the workhouse, when they found out her father was a bigamist .. I would have thought that should have been who they were trying to protect so I will be interested to hear what everyone thinks about the series. Julie
maggie_4_7
21-06-13, 13:20
It is now set for record set it yesterday must be a 7 day thing didn't try Wednesday.
I am looking forward to this.
Looking forward to it - hope they also cover Scottish poorhouses.
kiterunner
25-06-13, 21:42
It was interesting, but I found it infuriating how they kept jumping from one story to another. I know that a lot of programmes work that way nowadays though. Laughed at Fern Britton being amazed that her ancestor was still working as an agricultural labourer at the age of 64!
I loved it apart from the jumping from one to another, annoyed me about that
kiterunner
25-06-13, 21:45
Most of the celebrities continue into next week, so I'm afraid this may be something of a spoiler for Barbara Taylor Bradford's mother's and grandmother's story - I will post a link to their 1911 census entry but not transcribe it on here so people can choose whether to be spoiled!
ancestry 1911 census (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2352/rg14_25853_0201_03/30570010?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3dfred a%26gsln%3dwalker%26sx%3d%26f2%3d%26f3%3d%26f8%3d% 26rg_81004011__date%3d%26rs_81004011__date%3d0%26f 17%3d%26f18%3d%26f23%3d%26f20%3d%26f21%3d%26_8000C 002%3d%26_80008002%3dedith%26_80018002%3d%26f15%3d %26f9%3d%26f22%3d%26gskw%3d%26prox%3d1%26db%3d1911 england%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26pcat%3d35%26fh%3d0%26h%3d30570010%26recoff%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord)
(If you don't have an ancestry sub and want to know what it says, I can send it to you in a PM.)
Considering the subject of her books, I was shocked that Barbara Taylor Bradford seemed so ignorant of the life may poor people suffered in the past.
Olde Crone
25-06-13, 21:59
I'm still trying to work out what the secrets were.......
OC
I'm still trying to work out what the secrets were.......
OC
That well off people didn't know their ancestors had been in the workhouse?
I can't believe BTB didn't know her mother was illegitimate.
Olde Crone
25-06-13, 22:08
Ah, right, I misunderstood the title!
No secrets for anyone who has done their family history, which none of these celebs seem to have done.
I agree, BTB didn't seem to have a grasp really. Her GM went into the workhouse to give birth (twice!) and came back out again. Unremarkable for the time.
OC
They are trying to compare life in the workhouse to now and not to what life was outside the workhouse then. In many cases the workhouse was a temporary arrangement and residents got out as soon as they could especially as it was deemed a shameful situation to be in.
That man who was ill, came in for treatment many times, but it said he left not that he'd been thrown out.
It didn't really say much about what was deemed the deserving poor and the undeserving poor or that the workhouse was effectively the only place sick old people could go to be treated. I have quite a number that died in the poorhouse but also had a different home address and their deaths were often registered by their relatives.
After her father died I have one 12 year old girl in he workhouse- she was then sent to work for someone but returned and was sent out to someone else from where she absconded and I haven't found out what happened to her after that. Her mother re-married and her half brother named one of his children after his half sister.
kiterunner
25-06-13, 22:44
They are trying to compare life in the workhouse to now and not to what life was outside the workhouse then.
Yes, I noticed when they said what the timetable was like for the residents of the workhouse, sleep, eat and work, and no time for anything else, surely that was what life was like for many people outside the workhouse too.
Olde Crone
25-06-13, 22:48
Yes, the 60 hour working week was common outside the workhouse and in the cotton mills of Lancashire was often even longer than that - a 14 hour day was unremarkable.
OC
kiterunner
25-06-13, 22:48
Here is Fern Britton's ancestor on the 1871 census:
1871 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7619/KENRG10_917_921-0452/13682694?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.u k%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1871%26db%3d%26so%3d2%26ra nk%3d0%26gsfn%3dfriend%26gsln%3dcarter%26sx%3d%26g s1co%3d1%252cAll%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%2 6year%3d%26yearend%3d%26sbo%3d0%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d 0%26wp%3d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr %26prox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-b&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
It's the one they showed on the programme, age 64, agr labourer, living with his daughter and son-in-law in Wrotham, Kent.
Lynn the Forest Fan
26-06-13, 05:53
I found BTB's reaction to the lack of a father's name on the birth certs, very comical, as though it was a total shock.
The moving between stories was annoying, but they do it in so many programmes now
The moving between stories was annoying, but they do it in so many programmes now
Along with my other pet hate of re-explaining everything we've already seen after each commercial break, as if two minutes away from the programme will cause us to forget everything!
ElizabethHerts
26-06-13, 06:55
I gave up watching because I thought it was very slow and repetitive and I was also trying to sort myself out in the kitchen. I found the format of the programme very annoying and the celebrities rather irritating.
Brian Cox was a bit scary when he asked the expert if she thought his ancestor was a malingerer!
Olde Crone
26-06-13, 10:29
I wondered how Brian Cox knew his (great?) grandfather WASN'T a malingerer, lol. They had them then, just as we have them now. One of my relatives was recorded with the blush-making words "Would rather beg than work", which does sort of have a ring of truth to it.
OC
I wondered how Brian Cox knew his (great?) grandfather WASN'T a malingerer, lol
By the time he was outraged about that, he had forgotten he was previously cross with the same ancestor for apparently callously leaving his mother-in-law to live on the stairs! "Didn't they take her in?"
kiterunner
26-06-13, 11:25
Talking of stairs, I don't think they explained that in Scotland "a stair" can mean the same as "a flight of stairs" does in England.
kiterunner
26-06-13, 11:48
Looking through the census entries for Friend Carter (Fern Britton's ancestor), in 1881 at the age of 74, he was a Book Keeper:
1881 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7572/KENRG11_879_883-0199/8029314?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1881%26db%3d%26so%3d2%26ra nk%3d0%26gsfn%3dfr*nd%26gsln%3dcarter%26sx%3d%26gs 1co%3d1%252cAll%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%26 year%3d%26yearend%3d%26sbo%3d0%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d0 %26wp%3d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr% 26prox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
And in 1891 at the age of 84, a Cement Labourer!
1891 census ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/6598/KENRG12_650_652-0427/4191115?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3duki1891%26db%3d%26so%3d2%26ra nk%3d0%26gsfn%3dfr*nd%26gsln%3dcarter%26sx%3d%26gs 1co%3d1%252cAll%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%26 year%3d%26yearend%3d%26sbo%3d0%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d0 %26wp%3d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr% 26prox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
Exactly Kate. I couldn't understand why they showed Fern he was still a labourer at only 64 when he was still one at 84?
Olde Crone
26-06-13, 14:10
Kite
Yes, in Scotland if you said "We live on the same stair" of a tenement block, you would mean you lived on the same floor.
OC
I wasn't overly impressed at all. Brian Cox got right on my nerves... A great concept poorly executed.
Kite
Yes, in Scotland if you said "We live on the same stair" of a tenement block, you would mean you lived on the same floor.
OC
We lived 'on a stair' in Scotland - ie, in a tenement. Hated the traipse 'doon the close' to the outside communal conveniences...three holes in a long wooden seat. I'd peep out the back to check if I could see any feet poking out from under the cludgie door.
Margaret in Burton
26-06-13, 17:44
Brian Cox was a bit scary when he asked the expert if she thought his ancestor was a malingerer!
I thought the poor woman looked petrified. He was so aggresive I thought he was going to thump her as if it was her fault.
Lynn the Forest Fan
27-06-13, 06:19
She probably didn't dare suggest that his relative had been a malingerer!
Interesting review of the first episode. Echoes many of my thoughts.
http://myblogs.informa.com/jvc/2013/06/28/%25E2%2580%2598cruel-beyond-belief%25E2%2580%2599-secrets-from-the-workhouse-itv-episode-1-25-june-2013/
kiterunner
02-07-13, 10:47
Thanks for that, Shona. It is certainly a lot more balanced and sensible than the programme was. Part 2 tonight clashes with "Luther" so I shall have to record it and watch it some other time.
Thanks Shona - very interesting and a lot more believable.
ElizabethHerts
02-07-13, 15:45
I have two ancestors who were Masters of the Workhouse and it has always worried me as they can be greatly maligned. I know the one in Portsea was highly regarded and I genuinely feel he and his wife were trying to help those less fortunate.
It's a relief to read something more balanced.
Olde Crone
02-07-13, 21:39
I agree with the article Shona has linked, apart from a slight reservation about outrelief. Yes indeed, many people did receive out relief, but it wasn't quite the pink and fluffy alternative to the workhouse which that article implies.
Out relief was administered just as harshly as the workhouse and it consisted of people having to beg for it. It was merely subsistence - a few loaves of bread, maybe the odd pair of boots here and there, but the recipient was expected to sell everything they had in order to pay their rent and when ALL their possessions had gone and they could not pay their rent, then the workhouse was all that was left to them. Out relief was really only a short term stop gap, in the case of accidents or illness or short periods of seasonal unemployment.
I do have a distant relative who was a Relieving Officer. Rather creatively, I thought, he employed on his farm anyone who had the surname Holden, rather than see them a drain on the rates!
OC
My favourite part of episode two was BTB learning about her mother's half-sister who had been traced living in Australia, where she had been "transported" for the crime of being poor. BTB's mother had written to the authorities asking if there was any way that her sister could be returned to the UK, only to learn it would cost £32-36. Of course this story was sad and I was supposed to be welling up at the injustice of "the system", but couldn't manage it because of BTB's husband!!! I don't know if I missed any part, but I only saw a man as disinterested as a person could possibly be whilst BTB desperately tried to get him to show some emotion!! He looked like someone who had been told he had to stay awake an hour after taking his sleeping tablets!
What a pity BTB didn't earn her £140million a bit sooner - she could then have paid the £32.
I wasn't convinced by the idea that Felicity Kendal's relative was sent back to the workhouse because some busy-body census enumerator had discovered she was married and not a widow, changing "Wid" to "M" on the census sheet. Surely it's more likely she lost her job when it became clear she was pregnant again, but with no husband in the picture to support her?
Margaret in Burton
04-07-13, 07:51
My favourite part of episode two was BTB learning about her mother's half-sister who had been traced living in Australia, where she had been "transported" for the crime of being poor. BTB's mother had written to the authorities asking if there was any way that her sister could be returned to the UK, only to learn it would cost £32-36. Of course this story was sad and I was supposed to be welling up at the injustice of "the system", but couldn't manage it because of BTB's husband!!! I don't know if I missed any part, but I only saw a man as disinterested as a person could possibly be whilst BTB desperately tried to get him to show some emotion!! He looked like someone who had been told he had to stay awake an hour after taking his sleeping tablets!
Totally agree Merry.
Here is Mary Liddell in 1901 with Albert Edward.
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7814/LANRG13_4009_4012-0160/25641632?backurl=http%253a%252f%252fsearch.ancestr y.co.uk%252fcgi-bin%252fsse.dll%253findiv%253d1%2526db%253duki1901 %2526rank%253d1%2526new%253d1%2526MSAV%253d1%2526m sT%253d1%2526gss%253dangs-d%2526gsfn_x%253dNN%2526gsln%253dLiddell%2526gsln_ x%253dNN%2526gskw%253dUlverston%2526gskw_x%253d1%2 526cpxt%253d1%2526catBucket%253drstp%2526uidh%253d fpy%2526cp%253d11%2526pcat%253d35%2526fh%253d2%252 6h%253d25641632%2526recoff%253d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnRecord
Like Merry, I was a tad dubious about the spin put on the story of Mary Liddell. How do we know she had an affair and was sent to the workhouse by her husband, John? The couple may have parted. Was John around in 1901 and if so, did he describe himself as being a widower? What happened to the couple's nine children?
The 1901 census lists Mary as a dressmaker. Perhaps she was boarding there rather than being employed as a servant.
When she got pregnant again (with Claude), she went to the workhouse for the birth. The changing of W to M on the census, I feel, had little to do with it.
Looks as if the Liddell family were Scottish. John and Mary were in Auchenleck in Ayrshire in 1881 and 1891. John and the children were in Dalton in Furness in 1901 - his status was married. Ditto 1911 - all children born in Auchenleck. John died in 1932 (at Bleak House) - probate to one of his sons who was a poultry farmer.
kiterunner
05-07-13, 22:18
Of course this story was sad and I was supposed to be welling up at the injustice of "the system", but couldn't manage it because of BTB's husband!!! I don't know if I missed any part, but I only saw a man as disinterested as a person could possibly be whilst BTB desperately tried to get him to show some emotion!! He looked like someone who had been told he had to stay awake an hour after taking his sleeping tablets!
I expect most of his "reaction shots" were filmed afterwards and just edited in at suitable points, and maybe he just isn't very good at acting. Also from what I've read in various articles about Barbara Taylor Bradford's part of the programme, she already knew years ago about her mother being illegitimate and about the half-siblings who went to Australia, so it wouldn't have been a shocking revelation to her husband.
kiterunner
05-07-13, 22:25
Like Merry, I was a tad dubious about the spin put on the story of Mary Liddell. How do we know she had an affair and was sent to the workhouse by her husband, John? The couple may have parted.
The 1901 census lists Mary as a dressmaker. Perhaps she was boarding there rather than being employed as a servant.
When she got pregnant again (with Claude), she went to the workhouse for the birth. The changing of W to M on the census, I feel, had little to do with it.
Yes, I thought the same, now I have managed to watch episode 2. Loved Felicity Kendal thinking it was "amazing" that Albert got the two standard WW1 medals, and "amazing" that he put John Liddell down as his father on his marriage certificate - pretty usual for someone who was illegitimate to put down some name or other for father's name, going by the number of certs I've seen where it has been done.
And them coming up with the story of him being reconciled with his Liddell relatives when he "came home from the war with his medals" (as I understand it, the medals were issued a few years after the end of the war?) And the way they explained him joining the army in 1915 as being because he couldn't easily get a job having been in the workhouse - lots of men from all walks of life joined the army in 1915. Anyway, he could have got to know his Liddell relatives at any time of his life really for all they know. But I'm glad they found his will to show that he did know the Liddells, otherwise they might have made up a whole story of how he never knew any of his half-siblings.
I've read in various articles about Barbara Taylor Bradford's part of the programme, she already knew years ago about her mother being illegitimate and about the half-siblings who went to Australia, so it wouldn't have been a shocking revelation to her husband.
Tsk - feel cheated by BTB's 'shocked' reaction on 'discovering' that her mum was illegitimate.
Lynn the Forest Fan
06-07-13, 06:47
I did feel that they made rather a lot of assumptions, but then again I suppose we all do at times.
Langley Vale Sue
06-07-13, 07:14
I did feel that they made rather a lot of assumptions, but then again I suppose we all do at times.
Makes for 'good' television though :rolleyes: :d
kiterunner
06-07-13, 10:43
Here is an article by BTB where she says that she found out her mother was illegitimate in 2004:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10136391/How-my-grandmother-was-banished-to-a-workhouse.html
I can't find the ones that I read but I know that in one of them, she said that many years ago, when she was promoting one of her bestselling books she went on a book tour to Australia and because she knew that some of her mother's siblings had emigrated to Australia, she made a big thing of it in her interviews over there in the hope that they, or their children, would get in touch with her, and because she didn't hear from anyone, she took it that they weren't interested. But it does seem that she didn't know how they came to emigrate until the making of this tv series.
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