Opinions please

[Asa]

I have the will of a John Gomme 1633 who left a widow Anne and two sons Robert and Stephen who had 3 and 5 children respectively, their elder sons being John and Stephen respectively.

I've now found the will of a Ralph Wilson of the same parish who made his will in 1649, probate 1660. He leaves three children plus a widow Anne who has a son Robert Gomme. Forty pounds has been due to Ralph Wilson from her son Robert Gomme since he married Anne and has been 13 (I think) years in Robert's hands.

Ralph Wilson's executor is his son-in-law John Gomme, who is the husband of his daughter. John Gomme is the grandson of the John Gomme who made his will in 1633.

Does it seem unlikely that Anne, widow of John Gomme, having an adult son with 5 children in 1633 would be the wife of Ralph Wilson and possibly still alive in 1660? I've thought about this so much I'm feeling quite muddled.

All that survives of the PRs for Gomme burials at this time are Robert in 1666 and confusingly Anne widow in 1666/7. I have no evidence either way that any of the other Gommes other than Robert and his son John stayed in the parish.

[Merry]

I've thought about this so much I'm feeling quite muddled.



lol I'm feeling muddled now too !


Is there anything in the will of John Gomme (is 1633 when it was written or when it was proved?) to give any indication of the ages of the grandchildren, other than the names of the eldest grandsons?

If this was my family I would jot down a time line to see how likely it is that it's all the same Anne (and I would only do that several hours after trying to do it in my head and would wonder at the time I'd wasted! lol).

I think the problem will turn out to be that if Anne lived well into old age, then the scenario of it being the same Anne who was wife to both men will be very possible, but not necessarily correct!!

[Asa]

I'm glad it's not just me!

The will was written 1633 and proved 1633 I think but I can't currently lay my hands on it. No indication of any ages. The only thing I can come up with is that John the grandson of John d1633 was born about the 1620s - married by 1649 but his widow lived until 1714. I suppose if you say he was born about 1625 and his grandmother was 50 born c1675 that would make her 60ish when she remarried and in her 70s in 1649 so I suppose it is possible. I'll do a timeline! It's proving it though isn't it...

[Merry]

and his grandmother was 50 born c1675

1575!! :d

[Asa]

lol - looks promising for a timeline doesn't it ;)

[Merry]

Indeed! lol

[ElizabethHerts]

Asa, what parish did they live in?

[Asa]

This is Pishill, Oxfordshire Elizabeth, where I also feel I've been living for some months now.

[ElizabethHerts]

:D I know the feeling, Asa! I sometimes feel I have been living at Wotton Underwood, and more lately at Bletchington. I have also had temporary stays at Cocking and Stedham in Sussex!

The reason I ask is that I have access to the transcriptions of a few Oxfordshire parishes, but not Pishill, sadly.

[Asa]

Thank you - I have a few but not Pishill either but there's very little that survives from before 1800, which is why this lot are such hard work but also so engrossing:-) I'll have to go back and have a look for Wilsons now...

[Phoenix]

A lot of wills were made during the interregnum which weren't proved until 1660.

You might find that Anne was the "now wife of" John Gomme in his will, which might mean she was the mother of Robert but not Stephen as well.

Similarly, she could well have married Ralph Wilson, but died in 1650. Ralph himself might have been on the point of death when he made his will.

Robert and Stephen Gomme could have been married to Anns, and they could have had second sons called Robert.

Grandmothers do exist with children in their thirties, but given everything that was thrown at families in the 1600s: plague, civil war as well as the ordinary vicissitudes of life, I would have thought life expectancy would not be great. (btw, if she had remarried, wouldn't her surname be Wilson?)

[Asa]

Thank you Phoenix - I've thought of some of these things but not all of them:-) Anne doesn't appear as the now wife in either will but I have that in another will - is that a good sign of a second wife? Anne just appears as my wife in Ralph Wilson's will - that's just my wording.

I didn't know the interregnum held up probate - thanks for that.

[Phoenix]

All the church courts were scrapped, so you had civil marriages and a single place to prove wills. There was a huge bulge in the number of wills proved after the restoration which must mean that some people, particularly those who could not readily travel, had waited.

[Asa]

Does anyone know if there's a social reason why Anne's son would have to pay Ralph Wilson money at their marriage? It's occurred to me that John Gomm d 1633's sons are unlikely to have had adult children in c1635 if that's when Ralph and Anne married

[Phoenix]

Might it be the classic case of sponging off your new stepfather (to build up a herd, buy a bit more land etc) promising every year to clear off the loan?

[Asa]

That would make sense.

[Asa]

That awkward moment when you've been an idiot....theGenealogist had the will transcribed as Ralph Wilson and I wondered why it hadn't shown up anywhere else. I've since realised the surname is Wilder - surprisingly similar in the handwriting I have to say. Anyway, I've found a lease and a baptism which suggests that Ralph was born in 1573 so would have been mid 70s when he made his will.