Limerick born Grandmother Ellen O'Connor [Archive] - Genealogists' Forum

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 09:47

My OH's grandmother's family is a mystery. Ellen O'Connor's parents (according to her Australian marriage certificate) were Patrick O'Connor and Bridget Kenneally/Kennelly.
Back in 2011 GF found Ellen's brother's birth records, John 23/6/1872 and Michael 8/3/1878 born Limerick.
Ellen had two sisters who also came to Australia also. Catherine "Katie", supposedly born 1868 at Glenaster, Ardath, Limerick married Cornelius Toohey in Sydney in 1891 and Bridget remains a mystery.
On Famsearch, I found some time ago, a marriage of Bridget Kenealy reg district Glin in 1869 vol 10, P151 No. 4179384 and
Patrick O'Conor 1869 No. 4179374 but dif Vol 15 P251 at Limerick
- there is also a birth of Ellen O'Connor 1869 Vol 15 P 418 No. 4187286.
I purchased the birth certs of John and Michael which I have currently misplaced:(
Ellen McDonagh's daughter Bridget birth certificate says born on 8/7/1897, mother Ellen O'Connor born Limerick Ireland aged 27.
I would really like to make progress and hope someone remembers better than I do as how to proceed .. thanks. Julie

kiterunner

07-06-13, 10:21

Their surname is shown as Connors on FamilySearch for Catherine's birth - 12 May 1868 Ardagh, Limerick, father Patrick Connors, mother Bridget Kennelly.
Then FamilySearch also has the birth of a Mary Connors, 27 Jun 1870, Limerick, father Patrick Connors, mother Bridget Kennelly Connors.

And the birth of a Francis Connors 27 Apr 1866 Ardagh and Athea, Limerick, father Patrick Connors, mother Bridget Kennelly.
And the birth of an Ellon Connors (female) 13 Jan 1864 Ardagh, Limerick, father Patrick Connors, mother Bridget Kennelly.

Have you got a birth certificate or baptism for your Ellen from around 1867, or could she be the Ellon born 1864?

kiterunner

07-06-13, 10:29

On your other thread about this family, you said that you found a widow Bridget O'Connor at Ardagh with a son Frank (Francis) age 46, so this looks likely to be right, doesn't it?

http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/Forum/showthread.php?t=7498&page=2

Not sure if you already have John's marriage? Again from FamilySearch, John Connors (age 37) married Mary Jane McKellar (age 38) 28 Feb 1916 Hobart, Tasmania, father Patrick Connors, mother Bridget Connelly Connors, spouse's parents Samorn Johnson and Caroline Davie Johnson. John single, Mary Jane a widow. If this is correct then John shouldn't be the John P O'Connor who you found on the 1911 census at Ballaghbehy with parents Patrick and Bridget, because that John had a wife Margaret. (Also it looks as though that family have a load of other people with them in 1901 who don't match the people in your family.)

kiterunner

07-06-13, 10:34

Frank and his family are shown as Roman Catholic on the 1911 census.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002775624/

If Ellon was born in Jan 1864 then Patrick and Bridget probably got married before 1864 and the civil registration of Roman Catholic marriages in Ireland only started in 1864, so we aren't likely to find a civil registration of their marriage.

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 10:34

I don't have a birth cert for Ellen .. her marriage certificate on 1st July 1896 gives her age 26 and her death certificate 12th May 1932 age 62 .. so both are born 1870.
From that info Kate I am wondering if the Ellen born 1864 died and the Mary Connors born 27 Jun 1870 was actually her, Mary Ellen. My mother in law the eldest daughter was Mary Ellen.
Catherine "Katie" was definitely a sister and you found a Patrick and Bridget on the 1901 and 1911 Census with Francis and his family .. this is giving me goose bumps .. I really feel we have found her.

Shona

07-06-13, 10:36

Kennelly is a variant of Connolly.

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 10:36

Wow Kate John in Tassie .. more goose bumps oh I wish my husband and his sister were alive to share this with .. but our niece will be delighted .. at at 35 she has just had her first baby ... called .. more goosebumps .. Ellen Mary .. isn't that wonderful.

kiterunner

07-06-13, 10:40

Looking closely at that 1911 census entry, it looks as though the number of Bridget's children has been written in as 11 born, 11 still living, and rubbed out (because the information wasn't required for widows.)

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 10:41

Shona that is wonderful .. one of my best friends is a Connolly .. she thought the world of Peter, so she will be chuffed with the connection .. her youngest dau will be quite rude lol Julie

kiterunner

07-06-13, 10:44

and you found a Patrick and Bridget on the 1901 and 1911 Census with Francis and his family .. this is giving me goose bumps .. I really feel we have found her.

Can you point me at the 1901 census entry, please, Julie?

Shona

07-06-13, 10:52

Here are some deaths registered in Ardagh - there is a John Kennelly, aged 80, who died in 1870.

http://www.countylimerickgenealogy.com/content/ardagh_deaths.php

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 10:56

Hmmh 11 still living is a bit strange ..
Known children 7 - Ellen 1864, Francis 1866, Catherine 1868, Mary 1870, John 1872, Michael 1878 and Bridget unknown. So the others could have been born before Ellen.
I thought I had them in 1901 but I can't find it. The mother - Bridget is 73 in 1911 so born 1838.

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 10:56

I will have to go search again for the 1901 ... rabbits

kiterunner

07-06-13, 10:57

Isn't this them in 1901, Julie? :confused:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001008715/
Glenastar, Ardagh, Co Limerick
Bridget O'Connor Head of Family 62 yrs 6 months Farmer, widow
John O'Connor Son 26 Farm Labourer Not married
Michael O'Connor Son 22 Farm Labourer Not married
Maggie O'Connor Daughter 18 yrs 4 months General Servant Not married
Lizzie O'Connor Daughter 16 yrs 5 months General Servant Not married
All Roman Catholic, born Co Limerick.

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 11:04

Wow yes that looks like them, but I don't think I had that .. I had the other family at Ballaghbehy Dromtrasna which was the wrong family.
Aren't the ages amazing .. and we have two more daughters .. so that is 9 children now, maybe the other 2 were older .. I wonder if earlier census survived that had Patrick. It is interesting that they are O'Connor on the Census .. but those early births were Connors no wonder we couldn't find them ..

kiterunner

07-06-13, 11:05

Roots Ireland has a church marriage for Patrick O'Connor and Bridget Kenneally in 1858 in Co Limerick, Ardagh (RC). Cost 25 credits to view.
http://www.rootsireland.ie/

kiterunner

07-06-13, 11:08

I wonder if earlier census survived that had Patrick.
"Census finder" doesn't show any surviving pre-1901 census for Limerick. :(

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 11:19

I will have to get that marriage Kate as that is sure to be them.
Very sad about those earlier census, so much was destroyed that I am amazed what you have found.
I am thinking that maybe Ellen was older than Mathew and lopped 5 years off her age.
Married 1858 and so prolific with her babies, it is most likely she had 2 before Ellen in 1864.

Shona

07-06-13, 11:31

There is a Hanora O'Connor born 30 April, 1875, Limerick. Parents are Patrick and Bridget.

I would have expected to have seen a son named Patrick in the brood. Off to look.

tenterfieldjulie

07-06-13, 11:43

There is another O'Connor Limerick family at Ballaghbehy (Dromtrasna) Limerick who are red herrings Shona
in 1901 - Patrick 62 farmer, Bridget 60, Timothy 29 Annie 27 John 26 Nora 24 and Bridget 22 - I think maybe Hanora born 1875 is the Nora 24 in 1901?
then in 1911 -John P 37, Margaret 34 (wife) Patrick 4 Bridget 1 with Patrick 72 (retired farmer) Bridget 73.
They were leading me astray for a while lol Julie

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 11:56

There it was ... sitting under my nose .. for years I looked for a link ... then you found it tentatively in 2011 and then recently .. but this confirms it .. from Trove (National Library Database)
Saturday 18 July 1896 - MARRIAGE - McDONAGH-O'CONNOR. - July 1, at St Benedict's Church Sydney, by the Rev. Father Carol, Matthew Patrick, second son of John McDonagh, Co. Sligo, Ireland, to Ellen, third daughter of Patrick O'Connor, Glenastas, Co. Limerick, Ireland.

Glenastas should read Glenastar and it is a townland not far from Ardagh ... so we know for sure we have the right O'Connor's. she is the third daughter which would fit in with the 11 children on the 1911 Census and 2 children would fit in the gap between the 1858 marriage and before Ellen the first one found .. I trolled through Famsearch today without putting any surname in and they aren't there so either the register hasn't been transcribed or it was lost...

I found sometime back this info on Connor/O'Connor web page and have tried contacting the owner but he hasn't responded.

Name: Catherine, (Katie); Parents Patrick O'Connor, Bridget Kenneally; Born 1868 Glenaster, Ardath, Co Limerick; Married Cornelius Toohy (Tuohey); left Plymouth 1868 to Sydney AU; Died 1952 Carlton, Sydney AU;sis-Bridget; m 1891 Sydney, 11 chld b 1892-1912, owned dairies in Bexley & Carlton.

It is obvious a typing error re the date she left Plymouth, as she was born in 1868, but she was married in 1891 and so I am thinking that it should read 1888. Can anyone find her on a ship in 1888. I think both Bridget and Ellen her sisters and Mathew McDonagh should be on the same ship. Thanks Julie

kiterunner

09-06-13, 12:55

In the NSW Assisted Passenger Lists on ancestry, the Port Pirie 17 Sep 1886:
O'Connor Bridget 22 Domestic
Catherine 16 Domestic
The other columns are really hard to make out but I think it says 2 Sisters for Relations in Colony. I can't read the birthplace but it could end with a k so could be Limerick.
ancestry passenger list (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1204/IMAUS1787_081456-0148/445541?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWassisted%252c%26rank%3d0%2 6gsfn%3dcat*%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx%3d%26gs1co%3d1 %252cAll%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%26year%3d %26yearend%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d0%26wp%3 d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr%26prox% 3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d10%26fsk%3dCIA ABLQABO5f&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Luckily there is another version of the list which is actually legible and it does say Limerick . Religion RC, able to read or write yes.
Ancestry passenger list 2 (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1204/IMAUS1787_081413-0384/253647?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWassisted%252c%26rank%3d0%2 6gsfn%3dcat*%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx%3d%26gs1co%3d1 %252cAll%2bCountries%26gs1pl%3d1%252c%2b%26year%3d %26yearend%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26ufr%3d0%26wp%3 d4%253b_80000002%253b_80000003%26srchb%3dr%26prox% 3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-d%26gl%3d%26gst%3d%26hc%3d10%26fh%3d10%26fsk%3dCIA ABLQABO5f&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

Also listed in the unassisted passenger lists:
unassisted passenger list (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1210/imaus1787_081107-0165/3278662?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk %2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWunassisted%26db%3d%26so%3d 2%26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3dcat*%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx% 3d%26rb__81004201-date%3d1886%26re__81004201-date%3d1886%26rg_83004201__int%3d%26rs_83004201__i nt%3d0%26_82004210%3d%26_82004200%3d%26_82004280%3 d%26_F0002841%3d%26gskw%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26p rox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

I can't find Ellen or Matthew on this ship.

kiterunner

09-06-13, 13:00

Ooh, Bridget and Catherine are listed in the "immigration deposit journal" for Oct 1885 - deposit paid by Margaret Heffern, 21 Albion Street, Sydney.
immigration deposit journal ancestry (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2000/32100_223501-00340/73175?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWImmDeposit%26db%3d%26so%3d 2%26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3dcat*%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx% 3d%26rb__81004201-date%3d1886%26re__81004201-date%3d1886%26rg_83004201__int%3d%26rs_83004201__i nt%3d0%26_82004210%3d%26_82004200%3d%26_82004280%3 d%26_F0002841%3d%26gskw%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26p rox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 13:05

Wow Kate that is great. I wonder who Margaret is? .. ooh this is great.
I only know a family story that Mathew met Ellen on the ship, so they might have come out later. It always puzzles me that Ellen on her marriage cert said lady .. which doesn't sort of fit ... also that her family didn't think Matthew was good enough. Family stories!!

kiterunner

09-06-13, 13:12

Hmm, there is an immigration deposit entry in Apr 1882 by a Bridget O'Connor for Annie O'Connor 24 born Ballylanders and Ellen O'Connor 17 born Co Limerick, both domestic servants, reference person Mrs M Martin of Ballylanders, arrived on the Ellora 6 Jun 1883.
Immigration Deposit Journal (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2000/32100_223499-00491/52444?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2 fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWImmDeposit%26db%3d%26so%3d 2%26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3del*n%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx% 3d%26rb__81004201-date%3d1880%26re__81004201-date%3d1896%26rg_83004201__int%3d%26rs_83004201__i nt%3d0%26_82004210%3d%26_82004200%3d%26_82004280%3 d%26_F0002841%3d%26gskw%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26p rox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults) It doesn't give the depositor's address on this page, unfortunately, oh but then on the passenger list Bridget is her sister in Sydney and her parents are dead, so this isn't the right Ellen. :(

Okay, the Abergeldie arriving 6 Jul 1884: O'Connor Ann 25 and Ellen 20, both born Limerick, both RC and able to read or write.
assisted passenger list (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1204/IMAUS1787_081412-0764/242911?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWassisted%26db%3d%26so%3d2% 26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3del*n%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx%3d %26rb__81004201-date%3d1880%26re__81004201-date%3d1896%26rg_83004201__int%3d%26rs_83004201__i nt%3d0%26_82004210%3d%26_82004200%3d%26_82004280%3 d%26_F0002841%3d%26gskw%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26p rox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)
This is the other version of the list but again the other columns are difficult to make out:
passenger list (http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/1204/IMAUS1787_081454-0067/428242?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk% 2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dNSWassisted%26db%3d%26so%3d2% 26rank%3d0%26gsfn%3del*n%26gsln%3do*con*r*%26sx%3d %26rb__81004201-date%3d1880%26re__81004201-date%3d1896%26rg_83004201__int%3d%26rs_83004201__i nt%3d0%26_82004210%3d%26_82004200%3d%26_82004280%3 d%26_F0002841%3d%26gskw%3d%26sbo%3d1%26sbor%3d%26p rox%3d1%26ti%3d5538%26ti.si%3d0%26gss%3dangs-c&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults)

kiterunner

09-06-13, 13:14

I've edited my post #22 to explain that the "Sisters" on the passenger list is for Relations in the Colony, so it would fit if Ann and Ellen went over first and then Bridget and Catherine went to join them.

kiterunner

09-06-13, 13:17

I can't find Matthew McDonagh on the Abergeldie.

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 13:23

I think you are right .. Ellen's age is right and Ann could be the unknown older sister.
Maybe the family story is wrong and they didn't meet on the ship out.
I always thought that Mathew could have come out with a cousin surname Finn.. they both came out to work for one of their mother's brothers called Matthew Finn who never married and had property at Ben Lomond in the Northern Tablelands of NSW

kiterunner

09-06-13, 13:30

Did we ever find a birth for the sister Bridget? I'm wondering whether she was also older than Ellen.

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 13:35

No we didn't find her birth. Was there an age for her on the immigration?

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 13:53

I found Matthew and Ellen's marriage certificate 1/7/1896 St Benedicts witnesses John McDonagh, Bridget O'Conner. Bride Ellen O'Connor Spinster Born County Limerick Ireland Occupation lady Age 26 Residence Myrtle st Sydney Father Patrick O'Connor farmer Mother Bridget Kennelly. Matthew was 27, so looks like she took 5 years off .. easier to remember maybe..
So how was calling herself a lady .. if she had been here 12 years .. Unless she was somebody's companion.. She certainly had an elaborate outfit when she married and there is a large portrait of her dressed very elegantly.. From the stories of her she was an extremely devout lady and I have no reason to doubt it. Did someone sponsor her I wonder. I looked for marriage of Ann and there was a marriage in 1908, but that seems too late as she would have been 47, but I can't find a death. I found 2 deaths in NSW for a Bridget O'Connor with parents Patrick and Bridget, one in Redfern 1926 and one at Newtown 1936, so could be either, or she also could have married later after 34. Of course they could have moved interstate.

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 15:11

Found the letter I wrote to Pastkeys in 2000 looking for their arrival ... this was after years of searching on my own. So many many thanks again Kate for all you have uncovered, including Ellen's elusive arrival into NSW. Just hope it doesn't take me as long to find what she was doing between 1884 and 1896 lol

I finally found the Birth Certificate that I purchased from Ireland in March 2011
DoB 23/6/1872 Glenastar, Name John, Father Patrick OConnor Glenastar, Mother Bridget OConnor formerly Kennelly, Rank or Profession of Father Farmer; Signature of informant Patt OConnors father Glenastar; Reg 5/7/1872.
So from looking at that he signed OConnors .. so easily it became Connors
Wondering if I should be looking for Padraig or Patrick .. another time .. Julie

kiterunner

09-06-13, 15:21

No we didn't find her birth. Was there an age for her on the immigration?
Yes, it says Bridget was 22 (in 1886) but I'm thinking maybe that is out by a year or two because Ellen was born at the beginning of 1864. So Bridget could have been born in 1862 or 1863, before the start of civil registration in Ireland. I think that means we may be looking for a boy born before 1864 too?

kiterunner

09-06-13, 15:37

Roots Ireland has a baptism for a Bridget O'Connor 1862 Ardagh (RC), Co Limerick, parents Patrick and Bridget. I can't see one for Ann on there though.

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 15:38

If I remember correctly, Bridget said 11 children on 1911 C and we had 8 plus Bridget 9, who we now know was older, plus Ann the oldest girl so 10.
Ellen said she was the 3rd daughter on marriage notice. There is another sibling, possibly older brother, or would she have said 4th child rather than 3rd daughter? Not sure.
I've just been looking at the Abergeldie passenger list and it was damaged.
The passengers were listed first Families which went A to C, then males S to Z and then females. So very lucky to find the O'Connor sisters in the undamaged part. That also leaves the possibility open that Mathew McDonagh and John Finn were also on the ship .
I know in some cases there were departure lists and arrival lists? Or am I clutching at straws .. I wonder if the arrival list would be on Trove? It is 1.40 am here I think I'll have to look tomorrow. Many many thanks Kate. Julie

kiterunner

09-06-13, 15:38

So from looking at that he signed OConnors .. so easily it became Connors
Wondering if I should be looking for Padraig or Patrick .. another time .. Julie

Not sure what you mean - looking where? Have you got the image of Patrick and Bridget's marriage entry yet?

kiterunner

09-06-13, 15:41

Ellen said she was the 3rd daughter on marriage notice. There is another sibling, possibly older brother, or would she have said 4th child rather than 3rd daughter? Not sure. It was quite usual to say third daughter or third son rather than child, ignoring the siblings of the other sex, so it doesn't mean there wasn't an older brother.

I know in some cases there were departure lists and arrival lists? Or am I clutching at straws .. I wonder if the arrival list would be on Trove? It is 1.40 am here I think I'll have to look tomorrow. Many many thanks Kate. Julie
The departure lists from the UK at that date aren't available, only from 1891 onwards. But you should definitely go to bed!

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 15:43

No he signed that as the information on John's birth registration.
The marriage is one of my next purchases, along with Ellon's birth. I am also looking for deaths but there are quite a few to choose from.. I saw a will but he was a shopkeeper.
Do you think that she would have put father deceased when she married in 1896? She didn't, if so that narrows it to between 1896 and 1901 Census when Bridget said widow.

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 15:44

Going lol The cats thanks you..
You would have thought they would have had a Patrick !!
Mother was living with Francis the oldest known son .. and all her children were living.

kiterunner

09-06-13, 15:48

(from Trove)
Sydney Evening News Mon 7 Jul 1884 page 5
Arrival of Immigrants

The Orient Company's immigration steamer, Abergeldie, arrived from London via Plymouth yesterday, on her second voyage to this port. She at onece steamed into Spring Cove, and was boarded by the Government health officers, Dr Mackellar and Dr Sibley. During the voyage some 20 cases of measles have occurred, and there are two men suffering from them now, so that it is probable that she will be detained a few days at Spring Cove until the passengers have had the opportunity to cleanse up all the clothing, while those suffering from sickness will be landed at the quarantine station. The immigrants are classified as 157 single men, 114 single women, 79 married couples, and 146 children from 1 to 12 years of age, and 12 infants. Two infants died during the voyage, and three births took place. The immigrants have been under the medical superintendance of Dr Beattie, with Miss Jones as matron. The Abergeldie is on this voyage commanded by Captain Smith, formerly chief officer of the Garonne. The Abergeldie left Plymouth on May 13, and Capetown on June 10, and the voyage has been an exceedingly pleasant one.

kiterunner

09-06-13, 15:49

You would have thought they would have had a Patrick !!

I looked for a Patrick baptism but no luck (you have to put in a first name to use the advanced search on Roots Ireland.)

tenterfieldjulie

09-06-13, 21:46

What a nice start to this dull morning at 7.42 am, I'm a bit bleary as I didn't get to bed to 2 am. Thank you very much for the article about the voygage Kate. It certainly puts a lot more meat on the bones of their voyage out and adds to the O'Connor story. They have an excellent Maritime Museum in Sydney, where I was once helped when I transcribed a ship's log. I will go back when I'm next in Sydney and see if there could be any record of the rest of the missing passengers. Julie
So excited, I went into Trove and I can see quite a few articles about different voyages with lots of descriptions about the steamer etc.
The exciting news is that a William Lawrence wrote a diary 63 leaves of the voyage that Ellen was on. The original is at the Maritime Museum but there may be a copy that I can borrow through the Library system .. woowee Julie

tenterfieldjulie

10-06-13, 02:24

I went looking for Margaret Heffern (Heffernan) on the NSW BDM database ..
and found - Children born to Patrick and Margaret Heffernan in Sydney
1886 Lizzie, 1888 Bridget .. and under Heffern at Glebe 1893 Ellen and born and died in 1895 at Rockdale Catherine.

Lizzie, Bridget, Ellen, Catherine all names of O'Connor sisters .. it seems quite possible that Margaret Heffernan could be an aunt, either an O'Connor or a Kennelly.
I've been trawling through the Trove obit/funeral notices for Margaret .. corrected lots but not found her.
1916 is widow of Luke;
1932 is widow of Donald..

I'll keep looking..

Can't find a marriage in NSW .. might be Qld.

kiterunner

10-06-13, 07:20

Searching for Margaret Heffern in the Immigration Deposit Journals, she paid the deposit for a Mary Heffern age 16 from Galway in Feb 1886 (definitely the same Margaret as her address is 21 Albion Street, Surry Hills.) There is also a Margaret Heffern who paid the deposit for a Bridget Heffern age 18 from Galway in Jul 1883 but the address is 192 Elizabeth Street, so I'm not sure if it's the same Margaret. There is also a Margaret Heffern of 96 Gibbs St, Sydney, who paid the deposit for an Ellie O'Sullivan age 17 from Cork in Feb 1884. Ellie O'Sullivan and Bridget Heffern both travelled on the Abergeldie arriving 23 Dec 1884.

tenterfieldjulie

10-06-13, 10:08

It is interesting that the births registerd at Sydney1886 and 1888 are spelt Heffernan, then 1893 (Glebe) and 1895 (Rockdale) are spelt Heffern. The accepted spelling here is Hefferan but maybe it was Heffern in Galway. The addresses are all inner Sydney it might help to find out what the business was. It sounds like a pub or boarding house to be employing young Irish girls as domestics.
They definitely didn't marry in NSW and not Victoria from the public trees. Having trouble with Qld at the moment. Looking for their deaths is very time consuming .. I've elimated quite a few .. There was a Patrick who was a chemist at Chatswood in the 1930s might be worth trying to follow him.

kiterunner

10-06-13, 10:19

We don't know for sure that the Margaret who was the mother on those Heffernan births is the same person as Margaret Heffern, do we, Julie? Or am I missing something?

tenterfieldjulie

10-06-13, 10:51

kiterunner

10-06-13, 11:48

No we don't. I was looking for a Margaret Heffern in Sydney at that time and I don't think I found any others .. I need to see if I can find an electoral roll for Patrick Heffernan for that time frame and see if he shows up at any of those addresses. Hopefully there aren't millions .. hmmh more headaches.. I've just looked through 43 pages on Trove for one year for Heffernan...

Where do you search late 19th century NSW electoral rolls, please, Julie? The ones on ancestry only cover 1842-64 and then restart at 1930. Or do you have to go to a record office?

kiterunner

10-06-13, 11:52

But ... ooh, Sands Directory for 1886 lists Patrick Heffernan at 21 Albion St!

kiterunner

10-06-13, 11:57

Still at 21 Albion St in 1887. 1888 and 1889 it says 31 Albion St.

kiterunner

10-06-13, 12:09

Ancestry has a Sands street index for 1890 showing a Mrs Silvester at 21 Albion Street and Miss McLeod at 31, so it looks as though Patrick and Margaret had moved on by then.

tenterfieldjulie

10-06-13, 23:29

That is interesting Kate. Did it give occupation for Patrick?
I have some books in my library (if I can find them!!) that might be of help.
Strangely I haven't used a lot of Electoral Rolls apart from having copies for here for the 1870s and 1890s. I will check at the library, as I've heard them talk about them and I thought they were online. Surry Hills went from a working class suburb into nearly a slum at one stage, but is now a very desired inner city suburb with lots of restored what we call terrace houses. I think with the economy is might be struggling again. I had a feeling that part of Albion Street was the nightclub area!! Mrs. Heffernan would not be impressed.. Julie

kiterunner

11-06-13, 07:04

That is interesting Kate. Did it give occupation for Patrick?
No.

tenterfieldjulie

11-06-13, 12:48

I'll get to the library tomorrow and see what I can find. I did find a Patrick Heffernan's obit who was from Galway, but he was married to a Mary, although she was not named in his obit. He had sons Luke and Cecil and daughters, the only one with the same name being Elizabeth (Lizzie).

Reading up on the history of Surry Hills, it appears that between 1850s to the 1870s, terrace houses and worker’s cottages were built. A number of suburbs close to the Sydney CBD sprang up, where people could walk into the city to work or catch trams. Light industry developed in Surry Hills, particularly the rag trade (clothing). It became a working class suburb, predominately inhabited by Irish immigrants. However it started to go into decline with crime and vice. There were all sorts of problems associated with the increase in population in Sydney, including health and safety. In 1889 a sewer at Bondi stopped pollution of Sydney Harbour and improved the health of the people. In 1900 however, bubonic plague affected Sydney and many of the oldest inner city buildings, especially around the harbour were pulled down to remove the risk of rats.
I think this puts into context why the Heffernan’s and O’Connor’s were in this part of Sydney and why they moved on. The question is where did they go and what did they all do?
When Ellen O’Connor married on 1st July 1896 at St. Benedict’s George Street West, Sydney, her address was Myrtle Street, Sydney ( a lady!!!). The closest Myrtle street to the CBD is in Chippendale today. By then the Heffernan’s were at Rockdale about 7 klms away on Google, (if they are the right family.) Julie
On Trove I see there are death notices for Bridget O'Connor in 1926 Redfern, Ellen McDonagh 1932 at Tingha (Ben Lomond) and Catherine Toohey 1952 at Rockdale.. I am being timed out at the moment because I must have used my internet allowance looking at Trove (and correcting items). I will be off to the library to see whether the notices bring any connections to light. I think I saw the Toohey's had a dairy at Bega (Southcoast) and so it is interesting that she is back at Rockdale where the Heffernans were in 1896.

kiterunner

11-06-13, 13:32

When Ellen O’Connor married on 1st July 1896 at St. Benedict’s George Street West, Sydney, her address was Myrtle Street, Sydney ( a lady!!!). The closest Myrtle street to the CBD is in Chippendale today.
Do you have the house number on Myrtle Street, Julie? If so then I can look at Sand's Directory to see who was listed there.

tenterfieldjulie

11-06-13, 13:38

No Kate unfortunately she just says Myrtle Street. I hope that Trove might bring something to light tomorrow. Off to bed now. Cheers. Julie

tenterfieldjulie

12-06-13, 08:48

I didn't get much success at the library they tell me that to view the Lawrence diary of the Abergeldie voyage that Ellen was on I will need to go to the Maritime Museum when I am in Sydney.
The Trove funeral/death notice for Bridget O'Connor in 1926 was for a Mrs. Bridget O'Connor, so she must have married after Ellen or died in another state. The one in 1936 was also a Mrs. Bridget O'Connor with parents Patrick and Bridget.
The funeral notice for Ellen McDonagh told very little only that she was an old resident of Ben Lomond aged 62 (which of course was wrong!!) and the notice for Catherine Toohey not much better it said she was of Willison Rd, Carlton and buried at Catholic Cemetery Woronora.
I suppose it was too much to expect that information would fall into my lap .. so having hatched, matched and despatched 2 .. only 9 to go!!
I need to pay money into Roots.web and buy some certs .. I will have to put a little money on my debit card .. nearly forgotten how to use it lol Julie

kiterunner

12-06-13, 09:02

It's not Rootsweb, Julie, you need Roots Ireland:
http://www.rootsireland.ie/

Shout if you need help with the search on there.

tenterfieldjulie

12-06-13, 09:09

Thanks Kate. I will put some money into my account at the bank tomorrow and then go to the library and use their computers. I have used up all my internet allowance. I really need to upgrade. I will let you know how I get on. I must have used it before because I purchased John's birth record. I will purchase the marriage of Patrick and Bridget and also Ellen's birth. I haven't really looked, but I think Patrick must have died between July 1896 when Ellen married and 31 March 1901 when the Census was taken where Bridget was called a widow. Julie

kiterunner

12-06-13, 09:21

Nearest I can see is a death registration for a Patrick Connors Apr-Jun 1898 Limerick age 62, vol 5, p 276.

tenterfieldjulie

12-06-13, 09:28

Looks good Kate. I am getting timed out trying to look at Roots Ireland. His age is right and we know he used Connors. Thank you. I think I need to visit Adagh and sit in the pub for a week and talk to the locals .. When I visited Glenaster last year I knocked on a door and a chap told me that there lots of O'Connor's in the area and then he said ooh that lady walking her dog was an O'Connor .. tracing the right one will be something else. Hopefully the Kennelly's will be easier to trace lol..
I might take my Irish friend with me in case they can't understand my accent lol

tenterfieldjulie

13-06-13, 08:52

Kate I had a quick look online today at the office and googled Kennelly family of Adagh, Limerick and saw a thread that had been reactivated on Ancestry queries re Kennelly's.
Back in Apr 2011 seab95 "I made a contact and they have given me Ardagh parish records with all Kennelly and the like entries"
I am wondering how to contact seab95 and whether he would share with me? Julie

kiterunner

13-06-13, 10:04

I should think s/he would share the info with you if you contact him / her, but I have heard that you can't use the library membership to contact people on ancestry - you have to use your own sub.

tenterfieldjulie

13-06-13, 10:21

I did message a person some info the other day and they replied to the library.
I might ask where they got the info and they might tell me. Thanks Kate.

tenterfieldjulie

14-06-13, 06:25

Aah too good to be true ..
I purchased the marriage of Patrick O'Connor and Bridget Kinely at Ardagh, Limerick in 1858 ..
The only additional information it gave me was that they were married on 28 January. No information for Father or Mother or Witnesses .... a real disappointment.
Makes me hesitate to look further. Julie

kiterunner

14-06-13, 06:56

That's a shame, Julie.

tenterfieldjulie

14-06-13, 08:10

I purchased 2 baptisms for 1838 for Bridget Kennelly Co Limerick

at Askeaton Father John Mother Bridget Sullivan

at Kilcolman & Coolcappagh Father Michael Mother Maria Downey

One of them might be her !!..

I'll have to get my map out and see how close they are to Ardagh ..

kiterunner

14-06-13, 08:31

Kilcolman is only about 3 miles from Ardagh according to Google maps. Askeaton more like 10 miles.

tenterfieldjulie

14-06-13, 08:44

Bother I was hoping that one was on the other side of the county .. Oh well at least I will have some information to go with when I visit Ardagh next.
I went back to the 1901 Census when Bridget put her exact age of 62 yrs 6 mths.
Looking at the baptism records, the one for Askeaton says born 21/5/1838, the other one just gives baptism date of 13/7/1838. Not sure what that tells me .. I'd say it eliminates the first and depending how long after birth she was baptised, it could be the 2nd? I only put Kennelly into the search but it did say plus variants. The other closest baptism? dates were 1835 and 1840.

kiterunner

14-06-13, 12:16

Date of 1901 census was 31 Mar 1901. So she should have been born Sep 1838 if that age is correct. But just because the census entry gives her age in years and months doesn't mean that it is accurate. For instance, my grandmother lopped a few years off her age but kept the day and month of her birthday.

tenterfieldjulie

14-06-13, 12:25

Yes I think it is going to be quite an expensive process and it will take a lot to prove who she is. Unless when I go back to Ireland I find living family with records, like I did with Peter's grandfather in Sligo and then it was people's memories. I can remember walking around a remote cemetery .. where there was no longer a church .. and a family neighbour telling me that when he attended a funeral about 20 years earlier, there was quite a debate about the site of a grave .. during which he was told that a yew tree marked the place of where Peter's grandfather's father was buried at Mt Irwin Cemetery in Sligo.

Shona

14-06-13, 13:02

Parents had to register a birth within 21 days or incur a fine. The deadline was frequently ignored in rural Ireland. When people got round to registering the birth, they simply changed the date of birth to fit the deadline. An actual date of birth can be months out when compared to a civil registration. I've had a few of my Irish being baptised before they were officially born!

kiterunner

14-06-13, 13:44

But there was no birth registration in Ireland when Bridget was born, Shona.

kiterunner

14-06-13, 13:45

Also where did you get the figure of 21 days from, please, Shona? I thought it was 6 weeks in Ireland, the same as England, but I saw something recently that said it was longer in Ireland.

Shona

14-06-13, 14:53

Also where did you get the figure of 21 days from, please, Shona? I thought it was 6 weeks in Ireland, the same as England, but I saw something recently that said it was longer in Ireland.

I'll have to double-check - I recall it was someone connected with South Tipperary Genealogy. The main point is that people 'moved' dates of birth to avoid the fine if they missed the deadline.

Merry

14-06-13, 17:35

but I saw something recently that said it was longer in Ireland.

I think it was Shona who said that on my David Hutton thread!

kiterunner

14-06-13, 19:00

No, I remember now I saw on the GRO Ireland website where it says 3 months to register a birth, and I was trying to find out whether it had always been 3 months but I failed.
http://www.genealogistsforum.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=236074&postcount=322

tenterfieldjulie

14-06-13, 22:37

I think because of being dispossed of their land, forbidden to practice their faith etc, most of the RC population had scant regard for what authority said.
I am hoping that I may get some clues from looking at Griffiths Valuations for Glenastar for the O'Connor/Connor family. I wish I could find the missing child out of the 11, to know if Francis was the oldest son. Patrick's father should be Francis if he was the oldest.
Our FHG bought a good book and the fiche, so I will head off to the library this morning. I think they are also on Ancestry too.
Thanks for your interest everyone and especially for all your help Kate, it has been invaluable. Julie

Shona

15-06-13, 10:14

Also where did you get the figure of 21 days from, please, Shona? I thought it was 6 weeks in Ireland, the same as England, but I saw something recently that said it was longer in Ireland.

This is from the Roots Ireland website:

Why are there sometimes discrepancies between the dates on church and civil records?

It was a requirement to register full details of a child’s birth within 21 days. Failure to do so invoked a fine and in rural areas particularly, the 21 day deadline for registering births was frequently disregarded. In order to avoid payment of the fine the dates of birth were adjusted to comply with the deadline. Where Church records give the dates of birth these are generally more accurate than those given in civil records; however, variations of up to nine months can occur. Please contact the county genealogy centre from which the record came if you have a query about a particular record.

kiterunner

15-06-13, 10:33

That's interesting, thanks Shona. I wonder when they changed it, and if it went straight to 3 months. I have a birth certificate for a member of my family who was born in County Antrim during WW1 and the birth was registered over 6 weeks afterwards by the "occupier" of the hospital, so I always thought it was past the deadline and the parents didn't bother to register the birth, but since I saw that 3 months on the GRO Ireland site I have been wondering.

But anyway, this won't apply to the possible baptisms for Bridget since she was born long before the start of civil registration in Ireland. Her daughter Ellen was the first of the family to have their birth registered.

tenterfieldjulie

16-06-13, 06:11

I visited my friend today who paid a researcher to look for her OH's family in Co. Kerry. She obtained the same type of marriage cert for 1878, which gave the same sort of result as my 1858 one, with no fathers names etc. etc She also obtained a copy of the church register and here was all the missing information .. age, occupation, addresses of bride and groom, father's names and occupations. This gives me hope that the church may hold additional information, which may lead me back further. Let's hope so. Julie

tenterfieldjulie

17-06-13, 09:38

Another little snippet has come to light:d -

On the 1901 Census at Glenaster, Limerick, with Bridget and unmarried siblings, Michael O'Conner is listed as 22 yrs unmarried.

Submitted by Vince Fagan on the O’Connor/Connors web page –
Michael, son of Patrick O’Connor and Bridget Keneely;
born Glenaster, Co. Limerick;
Spouse Catherine Dalton;
year of emigration place etc. Sydney, NSW; (no year)
died 16 Oct 1913 at 33 yrs of appendicitis;
comments – bro – P (Patrick?), sis – Catherine (Kate)
children: Mary, Bridget, Margaret.

I have found on NSW BDM –
births of Mary in 1911 at Waterloo, Sydney and in 1912 Bridget at Redfern, Sydney. Births only go up to 1912, so Margaret is probably born 1913.

I found Michael’s death recorded at Petersham, Sydney in 1913. Parents Patrick O and Bridget.

Questions raised:
Where did he marry? I cannot find Michael's marriage to Catherine Dalton in NSW.

When did he/they emigrate?

Vince has a possible bro P (Patrick). Did they migrate together?

On his death reg his father is listed Patrick O? Did the transcriber confuse his father's name .. Michael's name may have been down as O'Connor and his father as Connors with an "O" noted, or is there some other significance.

Thoughts appreciated. Julie

Shona

17-06-13, 11:39

Could Patrick have been born a Kennelly? I'm sure I came across a record for a Patrick Kennelly b Limerick at abt the right time to be the eldest child. Can I find it now? No.

kiterunner

17-06-13, 11:48

On his death reg his father is listed Patrick O? Did the transcriber confuse his father's name .. Michael's name may have been down as O'Connor and his father as Connors with an "O" noted, or is there some other significance.

I expect his father's name is written as Patrick O Connor and that is why it shows him as Patrick O.

tenterfieldjulie

17-06-13, 22:24

I don't know Shona, only know Bridget said she had 11 living children in 1901 Census (Kate's post 8). Records were found for 10 through different sources: Shipping (Ann); Birth/Baptisms (Bridget, Ellen, Francis, Catherine, Mary, John, Michael); 1901 Census (Margaret(Maggie), Elizabeth (Lizzie). You would think there would be a Patrick in there, either born before or after Francis. Ann the eldest girl's baptism record hasn't been found and so I'd say Ann and Patrick are together some where?
Kate . .. Regarding the O on Michael's death record .. Yes I was thinking along the same lines. Julie

tenterfieldjulie

20-06-13, 09:21

I'm doing a little jig here I am so thrilled.
I decided to look on Trove to see if there was a funeral notice for Michael O'Connor with his death 16/10/1913. Nothing came up in the search, so I decided to look through the SMH for October 1913 - 16th Nil, 17th Nil, looked 18th:eek::eek::D:D

1. The Friends of Mr & Mrs Patrick O'Connor .. funeral of their beloved Brother Michael ... pretty promising ..

2. The Friends of Mr & Mrs Con. Toohey of Webber- road Carlton, .. beloved Brother Michael ... ooh I am getting excited as this is definitely a son of Patrick and Bridget, as Catherine (Katie) Toohey is Ellen McDonagh's sister.

3. The Friends of Bridget, Mr & Mrs John O'Connor, Mr & Mrs. Martin Casey, Mr. & Mrs. Mat McDonagh :eek::eek::d:d (Peter's grandparents), Mr & Mrs. J. O'Sullivan ... Funeral of Beloved brother, Michael..

4. Hibernian Soc Notice to members.

Wow .. so what is this telling us that is new:D?

The 11th child of Patrick and Bridget is definitely Patrick O'Connor and he migrated to NSW and was married by 1913.

Bridget was not married in 1913.

One of the O'Connor girl's married Martin Casey before 1913.

One of the O'Connor girls married J. O'Sullivan before 1913.

It appears as if 8 out of the 11 O'Connor siblings migrated to Australia before 1913.

Patrick O'Connor is hard to track being such a common name. There is a Patrick O'Connor parents Patrick and Bridget who died at Redfern in 1926. I have not found his funeral notice but I will look again. I think I will buy this death certificate anyhow.

I found a marriage of Martin Casey in 1902 at Kogarah (Sydney) to a Minnie O'Connor. I have not found any children attributed to them. I found a death reg in 1923 at Granville of Martin Casey son of Michael and Annie; and a death of Mary Casey parents Patrick and Bridget at Redfern in 1940. I will look on Trove and see if I can find funeral notices that may confirm I have the right couple.

Then ta dah .. I found Annie O'Connor, the sister who migrate with Ellen.
.. Where did I find her living? ... in the same district as Ellen. Initially I found a marriage in Sydney in 1892, Jeremiah Patrick O'Sullivan to Annie O'Connor. Then births in Glen Innes .. Jeremiah in 1895, Kate in 1897, Mary in 1899 and Patrick in 1901. It appears that Jeremiah died in Glen Innes in 1936, but Annie's death is registered at Tingha in 1919. From this I feel that Annie was probably being cared for by her sister Ellen McDonagh (Peter's grandmother) at Ben Lomond (reg district for Ben Lomond).

The pieces of the jig saw are coming together .. still a few missing bits .. but lots of leads... Julie

Shona

20-06-13, 09:25

Brilliant news, Julie.

tenterfieldjulie

20-06-13, 09:42

So excited ..
So little for so long .. now so much it is overwhelming .. but wonderful. Julie
Had a look at the Ryerson Index and found Mary Margaret Casey Newspaper 5/1/1940 .. so I will be hunting that tomorrow...
Also found burials at Ben Lomond of Annie and Jeremiah O'Sullivan and must have seen the headstone and didn't realize that they were family .. Annie only 58 years 1/9/1918 and Jeremiah aged 76 in 1936. A lovely spot around the old church in the tiny village .. the only difference to Ireland is the large gum trees, but there are also quite a few pines planted many years ago..

tenterfieldjulie

20-06-13, 12:14

I think the marriage of John Connors to Mary McKellar in Hobart in 1816 could be a red herring as it says he is a bachelor, but according to the burial of Michael in 1813 his brother John O'Connor has a wife. There are similarities but differences in the Hobart marriage: surname Connors not O'Connor as they seemed to be in Aust; his mother is Connolly not Kenneally; and his age was 43. All of the following are similar but I can't see why he would say he was a bachelor if he was a widow as she said she was.!!
Of course I can't find a convenient marriage, as I have no further info. The only likely burial in NSW is in Sydney in 1947 - John Thomas O'Connor, Parents Patrick Charles and Bridget. Somehow the two names don't seem right.
I have now found a notice in Ryerson index to the Newspapers .. John Thomas O'Connor died 16/4/1947 at Sacred Heart Hospice, late of Rockdale, Formerly Hurstville. Aged 64 .. which makes him born abt 1883 .. so age is wrong, as born 1878 .. ages are often wrong on deaths though.. Hope there is more on Trove tomorrow.

kiterunner

20-06-13, 12:39

tenterfieldjulie

20-06-13, 21:39

Yes Kate, thanks I have now corrected the century .. too excited.. lol Julie

tenterfieldjulie

21-06-13, 08:28

Results from Trove -
Death 1947 John Thomas O'Connor - not the right one.
Bingo .. Mary Casey Died 27 Mar 1940 .. Found Death Notice .. 2 Funeral Notices and Obit from Catholic Press .. Survived by husband Martin and by (sister) Mrs. C. Toohey and family of Bexley, (brother) Mr. & Mrs. J. O'Connor and family of Mascot.
Born Glenastar County Limerick.
Came to Australia 44 years ago. Need to find her entry in NSW around 1896 .. hopefully with her brothers ..
I found Death reg John O'Connor aged 65 in 1941, so born abt 1876 at Balmain and
John O'Connor aged in 1959 aged 82 born abt 1877 at Little Bay, Sydney (Mascot?) that I need to check. (parents not named)
There are four Patrick O'Connor's deaths reg Sydney between 1816 and 1826. This is harder, because I don't know when he was born, but then a lot of the time neither do the informants. There is one with parents Patrick and Bridget. When I looked last time on Trove I found a number of Patrick O'Connor's died that year and couldn't find him .. probably should put in Toohey for that year .. because his sister Catherine will no doubt be named as well.
Slow process .. just wish this computer was up to speed .. sigh. Julie

tenterfieldjulie

22-06-13, 08:41

Sigh .. I thought I had found John O'Connor on a tree .. Oodles of info about his sister Catherine Toohey and Mary Casey (2 other siblings noted as living!!) .. then found John married Annie Kelly 1900 Sydney with a death in 12/11/1960 ... then alarm bells rang .. John O'Connor was back in Ireland in the 1901 Census unmarried. Looks like a trip to the NL in Sydney to view the 8/4/1959 SMH as a death notice is there for John O'Connor late of Mascot, but unfortunately it is yet to be digitized on Trove.
I did find a family member who lived to 102 and only died in 2006 - Kathleen Ryan nee Toohey, also another Toohey sister, Annie Gilbert, who died in Athens, Greece .. that is real family information that distant twigs would have trouble finding.

tenterfieldjulie

23-06-13, 14:38

O’Connor, Michael & Catherine (Carroll or Dalton)
Deaths and Burials Together
Carroll, Catherine 28/12/1923 87 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1265 – Death Reg. Kogarah No.20244 (Dalton) (Catherine O’Connor’s mother?)
Michael, Michael 18/10/1913 33 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1265 – Death Reg. Petersham No. 16908 (Patrick & Bridget)
O’Connor, Catherine 24/7/1923 47 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1266 – Death Reg. Redfern No. 10452 (John & Catherine)
O’Connor, Michael Joseph 20/8/1980 77 yrs Rookwood Grave No. 1266 – Death Reg. No. 19136 (Michael & Catherine) – not born NSW 1903
Births: NSW O’Connor, Mary 1911 Waterloo No 22520; O’Connor, Bridget E 1912 Redfern No. 36262.

My thoughts: Michael O’Connor was unmarried in the 1901 Census in Ireland and I think he married Catherine shortly after. It was put on a web site that Michael’s wife was Catherine Dalton. I think Catherine O’Connor’s mother was Catherine Carroll, but whether her maiden name was Dalton and she married for a 2nd time to a Mr. Carroll not sure. I surmise that all 4 buried at Rookwood came out together, with possibly other children, arriving around 1911 when Mary was born in NSW.

O’Connor, Patrick & Catherine (O’Brien)
Deaths and Burials Together
O’Brien, Norah 25/4/1902 30 years Rookwood Grave Sec 1 MI GG 274 – Death Reg No. 3877 Sydney (Michael & Bridget) Catherine O’Connor’s sister.
O’Connor Patrick 20/8/1926 65 years Rookwood Sec 1 M1 GG 274 – Death Reg No. 12303 Redfern( Patrick & Bridget) (2 other deaths that year)
O’Connor, Patrick M.F. 30/12/1893 7 mths Rookwood Sec 1 M1 GG 273- Death Reg No. 2058 Sydney 1893 (Patrick & Catherine) Birth Reg in 1893 No. 1867
O’Connor, Bridget Ellen 6/4/1902 5 mths Rookwood Sec 1 M1 GG 273 – Death Reg No. 3082 Sydney 1902 (Patrick & Catherine) Birth Reg in 1901 No. 28856
O’Connor, Catherine 17/1/1931 65 years Rookwood Sec 1 M1 GG 273 – Death Reg No.507 Redfern (Michael & Bridget)
Marriage: O’Connor Patrick and O’Brien Catherine in 1892 Sydney No 1279
Births of children of Patrick and Catherine O’Connor in Sydney, NSW
1893 Patrick M. F. No. 1867, Died 1893; 1895 Patrick E. No. 582; 1897 Edmond F. No. 28707; 1899 Michael J. No. 27775; 1901 Bridget E. No. 28856, Died 1902.
Deaths adult children: Patrick Edmund 1953 at Redfern No. 5262 (also as Patrick Francis); Edmond Francis 1969 Bankstown.

My thoughts - I cannot find the births of Catherine or Norah O’Brien in NSW so think they too would be in Ireland, but Patrick and Catherine were in NSW by 1892.
From his age on burial (if correct) it would suggest he was the oldest son of Patrick and Bridget O’Connor born Abt 1861 – we have not found his birth.
I will definitely buy his death certificate. Need to find a burial on Trove now I have the date.

Trove SMH 20/8/ Death 19 Aug 1926 at residence 22 McEvoy St. Alexandria. Beloved husband of Catherine. – need to find Funeral Notice not indexed. Look later

Sources: Genealogist’s Forum UK -; Google – O’Connor/Connors web page; Family Search; Roots. Ireland; Roots web queries; Ancestry for Shipping and Public Trees; ; NSW Register of BDMs; Ryerson Index of Deaths & Burials in Newspapers (especially last 50 years); Rookwood Catholic Cemetery site; Trove – National Library database of Newspapers - Sydney Morning Herald up to 1952? Cannot always be found in Search engine, as has been electronically transcribed and there are many errors – Ryerson gives you date to search newspaper; interested friends and helpful genealogists with lots of patience the best requirement ..

tenterfieldjulie

24-06-13, 12:08

Yes! I found the right funeral notices of -
1. Patrick O'Connor 20/8/1926 late of 22 McEvoy Street, Alexandria, Sydney -
Four notices: husband of Catherine; father of Mr & Mrs P Junior, Mr & Mrs Edward and Mr Michael of New Zealand; Brother & Uncle of Bridget, the Caseys, Mrs C Toohey & fam, Mr & Mrs J; Uncle - of Michael of Epsom rd., Waterloo, Mr & Mrs P and Mr & Mrs H Toohey.
2. The bereft children of Michael & Catherine - Michael the father died 1913.
Catherine O'Connor (Mrs Michael) died 24/7/1923. Three notices: late Catherine O'Connor;
mother of Michael, Mary, Bridget, Margaret; Sister-in-law - Mr & Mrs J. of Mascot, Mrs C Toohey & fam Carlton, Caseys of Waterloo, Mr & Mrs. P of Alexandria and Miss Bridget.
3. Catherine Carroll - 28 Dec 1923, grandmother of Michael (20?), Mary (12), Bridget (11) & Margaret O'Connor (10).

When I go to Sydney I will have a look at the NL for SMH for John O'Connor buried 8/4/1859. I am pretty sure I have the right person. Unless his two sisters were still alive in Ireland, he would have been the last of his generation.

I have yet to find the burial of Miss Bridget O'Connor who disappears between 20 August 1926 and 28 March 1940. She was born C 1862 so abt 64 in 1926. There were two burials of Bridget O'Connor in 1826 and 1936, with parents Patrick and Bridget, but they were not her on Trove. I will check again to make sure, but I am wondering if she returned to Ireland? I would not imagine that she would marry for the first time at 62? Julie

Shona

24-06-13, 12:20

Great finds - well done.

tenterfieldjulie

24-06-13, 12:28

Thanks Shona. I didn't think it possible having such common names like Patrick, Michael & John O'Connor, Trove made all the different. ..
Now I think I need to see if I can find more about who Catherine Carroll and her daughter Catherine are .. Somehow the name Dalton is mixed in there. I will need to go refresh where the Irish Census are located lol. They should be in the 1901 Census, because both John and Michael O'Connor were on the Census unmarried. Julie

tenterfieldjulie

25-06-13, 12:44

Got very confused searching the National Archives Census for Catherine Carroll . so many of them ..
I had better luck finding Miss Bridget O'Connor's death. I spent all afternoon trawling through Trove Family Notices .. unfortunately I started in Dec and worked backwards and found her in early Jan 1936!! The strange thing was that it said she died on 3rd Jan, had a private interment on the 4th and notice was in paper on the 7th. (Maybe because it was so close to the New Year places were closed.) It did give her home address as 34 Fitzroy Street, Carlton and said that she was buried at Woronora (Botany) Cemetery, which is where her sister Catherine Toohey is buried in 1952. I am having trouble opening the Cemetery site, although it says that it is searchable. I am wondering now I have an address if I can find out what Bridget did? I intend to buy her death certificate so it might tell me!! Julie

kiterunner

25-06-13, 13:03

I'm getting Error 404 when I try to click on Woronora Cemetery name search, Julie, so it's not just a glitch with your computer. But - I loaded the cached version from Google and managed to search for Bridget OConnor, and it says:

Surname: OCONNOR
First Name: BRIDGET
Type: Burial
Date of Death: 03/01/1936
Location: Roman Catholic Monumental
Section: SECTION 3
Position: 0647.

And this is the info for Catherine:

Surname: TOOHEY
First Name: CATHERINE
Type: BURIAL
Date of Death: 23/05/1952
Location: Roman Catholic Monumental
Section: SECTION 1
Position: 0281

tenterfieldjulie

25-06-13, 13:27

Thanks for that Kate. I wondered if it was me. I thought the sisters who came out together, might have adjoining graves, but that info tells me not. Hopefully I might get to Woronora and also to Rookwood when I next visit Sydney.
Next step is to buy a number of certificates in NSW and then try and find out what happened to the three siblings in Ireland. I believe that Francis died in 1945. Having common names like Margaret (Maggie) and Elizabeth (Lizzie) O'Connor might be difficult to track a marriage, unless they stayed close to home. Thanks. Julie

tenterfieldjulie

26-06-13, 11:31

I am up to needing to buy 21 certificates from a NSW Transcription agent, for the O'Connor family, but would like a couple more ..
The sticking block is Mr. & Mrs. John O'Connor .. Sightings:
Born 23/6/1792 Glenaster, Limerick Ireland;
1901 Census in Glenaster, Limerick, Ireland, age 26 unmarried;
18 Oct 1913 - funeral notice of his brother, Michael - Mr & Mrs J O'Connor, Mascot;
20 Aug 1926 funeral notice of his brother, Patrick - Mr & Mrs J O'Connor;
When sister Bridget O'Connor died 3 Jan 1936, there was a notice in the paper on 7th Jan saying she had been privately interred;
28 March 1940 funeral notice of his sister, Mrs. Mary Casey - Mr & Mrs J O'Connor & family, Mascot;
In 1952 only Catherine Toohey's large immediate family were mentioned.

So only things we know he had a wife in 1913 and was living at Mascot and was still there in 1940 with a wife and family.

I have looked and relooked at the Deaths registered in NSW from 1940 to 1960 and there aren't any with parents Patrick and Bridget. I have found a John O'Connor death in 1959 at Little Bay, Sydney, aged 82 and from Ryerson Newspaper Index - on 7 Apr aged 82 late of Mascot. Unfortunately the Sydney Herald newspapers on Trove only go up to 1956.
I also found John Lindon (Linden) O'Connor, died 1958, reg Little Bay Sydney, 56 years. The Ryerson Index - 20 Sep 1958 - late of Bexley (which is where the Toohey's had a dairy farm). (Very strange that his parents names aren't listed!!)

I will have another go at looking at Woronora Cemetery, but if I don't post back soon, would you mind having a look please Kate. Can you see who else is in a plot and who is either side. With Patrick and Michael buried at Rookwood.. one was buried with his sister in law and the other with his mother in law, their wives and children in an adjoining plot. So it made a lot of sense being able to view who was either side. Thanks. Julie

There is a public tree on Ancestry which says that John O'Connor married Annie Kelly in 1900 in Sydney, but he was still in Ireland then. There are two other marriages to Annie's in Sydney. If John Lindon O'Connor's age is correct, and he is a son, he was born Abt 1902 but I have not found it in Sydney.

I had a look at my notes on the Ancestry Tree and I think they are working from the Ryerson Index, which had a death of John O'Connor 12/11/1960, late of Mascot, SMH 14/11 .. the only corresponding death reg. is John son of John? & Unknown died Sydney.. (I suppose it is not unknown for father's name to be wrong).. I really need to view the SMH I think or see cemetery records.. I think I will go ahead and order who I am sure about and then later order certs for John and family.

kiterunner

26-06-13, 12:12

I will have another go at looking at Woronora Cemetery, but if I don't post back soon, would you mind having a look please Kate. Can you see who else is in a plot and who is either side.

The only way I can see of doing it is to search on a surname and then look at each result on the list to see where they were buried. It does say that "There are several ways to locate a final resting place or memorial site in our gardens or lawns. Simply complete your loved one’s details below or browse our extensive records." But I can't see how to browse them.

Tip - if you are searching for O'Connors, try both versions, O'Connor and OConnor.

kiterunner

26-06-13, 12:39

I'm not clear why you think that John Lindon O'Connor is John O'Connor's son, but JLC was buried 20 Sep 1958, Roman Catholic Plaque Lawn, section LAWN1, position 0473.

On some of the electoral rolls he is John Lindon Dymont O'Connor. (Both have an Olive Muriel with them on censuses and are printers, so I'm pretty sure it's the same person.) So I think he is probably the John L D O'Connor born 1901 at Bombala, parents Thomas and Cecilia.

tenterfieldjulie

26-06-13, 12:53

Thanks Kate, I just thought as there was mention of Little Bay and Bexley, that there could be a possible connection to the family... clutching at straws here.
I have just been looking at the Census in Ireland for the O'Connors .. the only Francis/Frank I can find of the correct age in Limerick in 1901 is married to Catherine with a son Patrick age 1..
In the 1911 when he with with Bridget at Glenaster his wife is Mary/Marg and he has a 9 yr old Patrick. It is possible that Catherine and child died ..
I have also been trying to view the images on the Census and I can view of the 1st summary page of the descriptions of buildings of Glenastar, but I cannot turn over the page? It says at the top of page 1/1. Julie
I could only open Woronora leaving the apostrophe out and saw Miss Bridget, but I could find John.
I had another look at Rookwood but couldn't find him. I will wait until I get to view the SMH and hope it tells me where he is buried.

kiterunner

26-06-13, 13:37

There are two John O'Connors at Mascot on the 1930 and 1933 electoral rolls, one at Humphrey Street and one at Cleland Street, but the Cleland Street one is no longer listed from 1936 onwards and the rest of his family members are still there, so I don't think he is the one. The Humphrey Street one is a carter, listed with an Annie who disappears between 1954 and 1958. John disappears from the e roll between 1958 and 1963. There are some other O'Connors listed at the same address on various e rolls who are probably their children, but may still be alive, so I will PM you the names. I couldn't find births for any of them on the NSW BDM site, but they were probably born after the cutoff date.

tenterfieldjulie

26-06-13, 23:40

I found - Death Annie O'Connor 1956 at Balmain - parents Samuel & Susan;
Marriage John O'Connor and Annie Herrett 1915 Waverley (Sydney);
Birth Annie Herrett 1873 Young, NSW - parents Samuel & Susan.

This all fits neatly and explains why the children do not show up, as BDM cut off is 1912.

Annie is 42 at marriage, so quite old, but then my mil married for the first time at that age and had 2 children.

The only fly in the ointment is that we have Mr. & Mrs. J. O'Connor, Mascot on 18 October 1913 at his brothers funeral.

The possibility is that he had a prior marriage and she died? I need to get the marriage cert to see if he was a widow.

Of course it would be lovely if someone had good records of the Herrett family (not a terribly common name ... I wonder if there would be records at Young?

Thanks Kate. Julie

I found quite a bit about the Herretts at Young, but I now think I have the wrong person, I don't think she would have married a staunch RC Irish man. On the Ryerson Index it said that died 8/12/1956 - 79 years, late of Epping, formerly of Young. I don't think they would have said Epping, but would have said Mascot .. back to the drawing board.. There were marriages to Annie McMahon in 1908 and to Annie Ryan in 1905, both in Sydney. Births 1907 Florrie MM at Redfern and marriage of Florence M1928 Redfern to Eric Bailey, also born 1910 William R O'Connor at Redfern. It could then flow that the others are born after 1912. I think Annie Ryan is a more likely contender.

tenterfieldjulie

27-06-13, 03:49

I've sent away for 10 certs ($18 each through transcription agent) and also a verification of the parents of John on his marriage to Annie Ryan ($9). I am pretty confident of this marriage now, because I found - death of Anne O'Connor, 1958 Sydney, parents Tom and Anne; birth of Annie Ryan, 1876 Sydney, parents Thomas & Annie. Ryerson Index death 20/3/1958 Sacred Heart Hospice, Darlinghurst, late of Mascot.
John continues to puzzle - from Ryerson Index - Death John 7/4/1959, 82 years, late Mascot -but then on death reg says Little Bay. Ryerson Death Index -John 12/11/1960, late Mascot, but then death reg, parents John and Unknown -the only way I will really know if it says who he was married to. I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to get certificates back and then I might order Annie's death (at least we should know more about their children etc) Julie

tenterfieldjulie

30-06-13, 12:48

I found shipping record for a Patrick O'Connor, aged 26 (b1861), arrived 17/10/1887 on the "Austral". It sailed from London to Adelaide, Melbourne and Sydney.
The aged is right and the date fits after the four girls arrived and before his marriage in 1892 at Sydney to Catherine O'Brien. Can anyone find anymore information about this Patrick on the Austral please? Julie

Shona

30-06-13, 13:28

Looking at the records on Ancestry, he was on the Austral when it left London. The ship called in at Plymouth en route for Australia. He is recorded at Pat O'Connor arriving on the Austral in Sydney on 18 October 1887.

tenterfieldjulie

30-06-13, 22:19

Thanks Shona that is what I found, I was hoping that there may have been further information, eg Bridget and Catherine said they had two sisters in Australia or that he was from Limerick. There would have been a lot of Patrick O'Connor's of that age. His marriage and or death certificate may say how long in Colony, so I'll just have to wait!!
I tried looking for Mary but it was hopeless. She had an obituary when she died in March 1940. The obituary said she was 44 years in Colony and lived for 6 years at Burwood and then for 38 years at Waterloo, so she should have arrived C 1896. It also said she married shortly after she came to the colony, but she married in 1902, I suppose it depends on what you mean by shortly.
John arrived somewhere between 1901 census and 1905 marriage but I think that would be impossible!!!!
I should try looking for Michael after the 1901 Census, with new wife Catherine, probably son Michael Joseph born 1903 in Ireland and possibly Catherine's mother Catherine Carroll. Further children - Mary 1911, Bridget 1912 and Margaret 1913 were born in NSW .. and then Michael died of appendicitis in hospital in 1913 .. so sad. It might be better looking for Catherine Carroll, she was buried with Michael; Catherine and Michael Joseph are buried in the adjacent grave. Rookwood Cemetery very kindly tells you all who are in a grave and who is either side. Julie
No luck with the shipping but only 10 or 11 days until my transcriptions come by email ..

tenterfieldjulie

01-07-13, 13:30

I have been looking at Electoral Rolls on Ancestry and while it says that it starts in 1903 it seems to me to start mainly from 1930. Am I wrong?

I was interested today to receive the following from Carol Baxter regarding NSW State Electoral Rolls and even the confusion regarding their location at the state library:

AUSSIE ADVICE: STATE ELECTORAL ROLLS

The Commonwealth Electoral Rolls have been available for two or three decades on microfiche. These (aka Federal) Electoral Rolls have now been digitised by Ancestry.com 1903-1980.

However, the NSW State Electoral Rolls, most researchers don’t know about them.

Some voting lists have survived for the 1840s, 1850s and early 1860s—usually intermittent and incomplete. By 1869, however, when this main record series begins, most men were eligible to vote. Accordingly, these returns serve as a pseudo census of adult males in a district. Even better, the lists were made every two or three years, and sometimes more frequently.

The lists for 1869-1900 are available on microfilm in the NSW State Library’s Family History Centre. The early years list - name, residence and voting qualification (eg. residence, freehold) and from 1894, occupation was added.

The NSW State Electoral Rolls for the post-Federation years have not been microfilmed, but are available in book form at the NSW State Library. From 1903 to 1917, they are located at call number DQ324.242/1; and from 1919 to 1929 (incomplete) at DS324.242/3.
To determine the relevant electorate, go to the book stack above the 1869-1900 micro-film drawer, look for the volume titled NSW Electoral Rolls Divisions Index Pre-1930 (NQ324.944/1), and find the relevant town. For example, Mudgee, was in the ‘Mudgee’ state electorate (federally, ‘Robertson’).

Then fill out an order slip, noting, in the appropriate boxes, the series name—NSW State Electoral Rolls—the electorate, the time-frame and the call number, and hand it in at the main ordering desk.

If the staff tell you that the post-1900 electoral rolls are on microfiche in the Family History Centre, you will know what to answer.

Helpfully, the Family History Centre also holds microfiche for electoral rolls for some of the other pre-Federation states: Victoria (1851, 1856, 1899), Queensland (1860-1900) and South Australia (1884-1900).

For these and the other Australian states, the post-1901 state electoral rolls might survive in their own state libraries. For anyone researching families from across the water, the Family History Centre also holds New Zealand rolls for 1853- 1981.

This is my (Julies) Summary from www.carolbaxter.com - the family history detective website.

kiterunner

01-07-13, 13:41

If you scroll down a bit on the search page there is full information about which years are included for which states, Julie:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1207

And this is the link to the older NSW e rolls (1842-1864):
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1310

tenterfieldjulie

01-07-13, 22:29

Thanks Kate that explains that Ancestry only has NSW from 1930. I wonder why they don't have from 1900 to 1930 when they have them for Qld? They also don't seem to realize that they only have the Federal Electoral Rolls and not the State. One is for the Senate and one is for the House of Reps. I thought they were the same (as do most people) but apparently not so. Carol Baxter has been involved with the production of the books for the NSW Musters etc and is no light weight in this field, so I will be interested when I am next at the State Library to see what I can uncover. Julie

Macbev

02-07-13, 09:35

W.A. has pre-Federation electoral rolls in the Battye Library, a few dating back as far as 1832 http://slwa.wa.gov.au/find/guides/wa_history/electoral_rolls

colray2e

02-12-23, 08:10

My Grandmother, was Katie O’Connor and my Father, Michael Toohey and his Tin brother, James, were born in 1909 and Doreen born 1912, but died at a young age. Cornelius Toohey was married to Catherine ( Katie) in Sydney in 1892 and he cut Sandstone blocks, at Carlton and moved them by Wheelbarrow, to the land he had purchased , in Webbers Rd. Carlton. Webber was German born and after / during WW1, the Rd. was changed to Willison Rd. He and Katie started a Dairy business and also bought land, in Bexley and had a Dairy there also. Cornelius passed away in 1922 and Katie , who had 11 children, had her elder sons to help her with the Dairy work. The NSW Govt. Purchased the Bexley, Dairy land, for State Housing and ‘Toohey Crescent’ was named, in her honour. Michael (Mick ) & James (Jim) became ‘Milkman’ delivering milk in the Bexley area, from horse n carts to Milk Trucks.
I have a photo of a 1931 Calendar with P. Toohey Registered Dairyman, Dromore Dairy
Iliffe St. Bexley . This P. Toohey was Katie’s eldest son, Patrick and Dromore was also the name given to the sandstone home, built by Cornelius, in 1892 and still standing today

ElizabethHerts

02-12-23, 08:43